Killer

[Wordleymaster1]

If you're to believe the bible, God kills. God also creates.
If you're a Christian, you love and follow God (or are supposed to at least).
Why do you follow a god that kills?
Charlie Manson has his followers. And he has killed (in one way or another - guilty enough to get jail time). Are Christians to be considered like his followers?
Or do Christians overlook God's killing and accept if as justifiable? Well I guess the answer is YES, so maybe the question should be WHY

Why do Christians overlook God's killing (the worst murdere in human history it would seem)?
Is it the same reason why Charlie's followers overlook his past?

Or will Christians take offense at the comparison?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 44 by dianaiad]

There are those of us who think that 'free will' is rather important;

What thest people THINK is irrelevant to what God COULD have done, but decided against.
Of course, you can say 'I believe God knows what He's doing' and that's fine to believe that - just as fine as it is to believe the God you worship has less than no clue about what He's doing because HE'S NOT REAL.

I, for one, am not at all fond of the idea of being a puppet with absolutely no control over my own life, thoughts and actions. I mean...what would be the point?

THen your god is limited. Any god I would choose to believe in would be able to not create Hell for those not worshipping Him AND allow free will. My God would be able to make black white and white black; make YES NO and NO YES.
Maybe my God is just better and more able than yours?

How very odd...and an almost irresistable...comment you made to a Mormon, for Pete's sake. Openings like that get missionaries sent to your door.

Er, you ARE aware that Mormons do not believe that God sends people to hell for simple non-belief, right? Or perhaps you aren't, In that case. I'll let you in on a wee secret:

I'm a Mormon (OK, that's not a big secret), and Mormons believe that pretty much everybody is going to heaven. Or rather, 'a' heaven. Nobody is going to burn in hellfire for eternity.

As to the God you choose to believe in...wow. If you can figure out how one can have free will and not be able to choose anything but good, please let me know?

As for me, I, at least, believe that I have some say in my own life, choices and outcome, and that God is my Father, and some day I'm going to grow up and be like Him.

One can't do that unless one learns how to make good choices, the reasons why some choices are better than others, and the strength of character to do the right thing even when the wrong one is very, very tempting.

One can't have that stuff programmed in. One has to learn it on one's own, or at least, mostly on one's own.

[1213]

Are you certain Manson produced no children?
...
The same can be said for any parent

People dont give life, and they dont create people. People only can let the life continue. It is the life within people that forms new being.

[1213]

YES we ere all set to live forever before God condemned us to death as punishment of sin.

I think it would be evil to let evil people live forever. They would make eternal life hellish for all, if they would have eternal life, because they love more evil and lies than truth and good.

I don't subscribe to the 'we are owned by God' concept that you seem to be. I prefer not to be hindered by a bully threatening eternal damnation for not being his spiritual slave.

If it is expected that you love others, is that really same as being slave? Why you dont want to do so? In my opinion no one will be slave for God. Those who get eternal life, want to love freely.

[1213]

My wife and I created the life of two beautiful girls, in your opinion, I assume I should be allowed to take it from them. If not, at least decide how long they are allowed to live, right.

You have not created life. You have let the life continue. You didnt create the cells that grew to your children. Those cells grew automatically, because you have body that is made to produce those cells. You have not created yourself and that ability.

[bluethread]

Well, nobody can prove that God exists, either, but that doesn't stop 'em from deciding that He is an evil so and so anyway.

This decision is not based off of there being no evidence for any gods. The decision gets based off of the book that is said to be written and in fact by many, inspired by him.

You would only have a point if the Bible did not exist. After all, you could not hate Sauron in the Lord of the Rings if you had not read the book (or watched the movies). Once you have, you can decide if he is evil or good regardless of him being believed to be real or a human invention. The same goes for god concepts.

I don't think Sauron considered himself evil. What one considers good and evil is dependent on one's prospective. That is why I pointed out that holding a deity to the standards for humans is a humanist view. There is no reason why a deity needs to be anthropomorphic. The Scriptures do use anthropomorphic language, but the context of the Scriptures make it clear that these are to make certain concepts understandable to humans, not to establish actual physical characteristics.

[Clownboat]

My wife and I created the life of two beautiful girls, in your opinion, I assume I should be allowed to take it from them. If not, at least decide how long they are allowed to live, right.

You have not created life. You have let the life continue. You didnt create the cells that grew to your children. Those cells grew automatically, because you have body that is made to produce those cells. You have not created yourself and that ability.

I think a basic biology class is in order. To provide you with evidence would be giving this assertion more credit then it deserves.

I would love to point out a flaw in your statement though, if for no other reason than some comedy:
- You didnt create the cells...
- ...you have body that is made to produce those cells.

The things people will believe in order to maintain their beliefs.

[Clownboat]

Well, nobody can prove that God exists, either, but that doesn't stop 'em from deciding that He is an evil so and so anyway.

This decision is not based off of there being no evidence for any gods. The decision gets based off of the book that is said to be written and in fact by many, inspired by him.

You would only have a point if the Bible did not exist. After all, you could not hate Sauron in the Lord of the Rings if you had not read the book (or watched the movies). Once you have, you can decide if he is evil or good regardless of him being believed to be real or a human invention. The same goes for god concepts.

I don't think Sauron considered himself evil.

Doesn't matter. I am pointing out that if you read the book or watch the movie, you can decide if you think he is evil or not (like the god/gods in the Bible). How he views himself is of zero importance. All of this is possible without believing he is a real person (or wizard in this case).

Bottom line, a person can read the Bible and determine if the god there is evil or not. The god being real or fake does not affect this outcome.

[bluethread]

Bottom line, a person can read the Bible and determine if the god there is evil or not. The god being real or fake does not affect this outcome.

I didn't mention anything about real or fake. My point is that good and evil is a matter of prospective. Yes, one can read the Scriptures and make a judgment based on their own prospective. I have read The Scriptures and, from my prospective, Adonai is tov(good) and not ra'(evil).

[dianaiad]

I have already defined death. It's to stop the function of a persons body. It may be more than at as well but dying means your body stops functioning at the least. Killing means making it stop. Murder means making it stop without consent or necessity.

The morality of killing simply does not necessarily depend on what happens after death. Even if I knew absolutely there was afterlife I wouldn't have the right to cause another persons body to cease.

Agreed, but what terrifies me is the slippy slope here.

"Slippery Slope" is a logical fallacy. The truth of something does not become untrue simply because you fantasize about what it might MEAN.

As well, as I have already noted, there is no room on a continuum of belief, no matter how strong that belief might be, for the sort of absolute knowledge that God, should He exist, would have.

I'm a spinner and a knitter and a weaver.

If I, having spun the wool, dyed it and knitted it, choose to take a pair of scissors to it because it is required to get the best out if it for the sweater (it's called 'steeking,' and yes it's done all the time and never without a bit of trepidation...still..) it's because I know what I'm doing. I created, not only the sweater, but the yarn it was made from.

However, someone else, no matter how sincerely she thought she was doing the right thing, would only do the right thing by accident and certainly not because she knew anything, really, about the garment, or my intent for it.

Most descriptions of deity do tell us not to kill each other, remember?

<snip rest as I find it objectionable and rhetorical nonsense, in addition to being a rank example of that 'slippery slope' fallacy>

Since when is any belief system, religion or set of ethics responsible for the behavior of those who break its rules?

And since when is any belief system, religion or set of ethics responsible for the behavior of those who are acting according to a different set of rules?

I would like to remind you of something that might illustrate the fallacious reasoning you are guilty of here:

The 'Big Bang" was not named that by those who supported it, In fact, it was named that by someone (Fred Hoyle) who was mocking it at the time, and who used, as one of his arguments against it, that it shouldn't be examined seriously because it could be used to support the idea of a creator God. There is some evidence that he later softened that stance, btw, but....

You are using the same sort of faulty logic.

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 51 by dianaiad]

Er, you ARE aware that Mormons do not believe that God sends people to hell for simple non-belief, right?

I know a lot about what Mormons believe, though I never considered myself a SME.
My argument here isn't with YOU or Mormons, but against the general Christian concepts that true Christians claim.

As to the God you choose to believe in...wow. If you can figure out how one can have free will and not be able to choose anything but good, please let me know?

It's not my place, it would be the place of the all knowing and capable being. Why do people insist that we must understand what or how a god does what they do in order for it to 'be'? Again, a VERY limiting approach to a god

One can't have that stuff programmed in.

Hmm... Looking around at all the crazy things people believe in this world that are contrary to logic I would disagree and say one CAN (and many indeed DO) have stuff programmed in.