Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's

[Zzyzx]

.
Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Wouldn't you carefully check (or have checked) those items before paying substantial amounts of money? Of course you would, you're no fool – not gullible – not a rube who just fell off the pumpkin truck. Right?

Checking for truth and accuracy is wise before committing to a course of action or making significant decisions. Right?

If someone tells you he can walk on water you're not likely to believe that unless you can see it done without tricks. If someone tells you that he saw a person walking on water you are even less likely to believe (if you have a lick of sense). If an anonymous person claims that another anonymous person saw the trick "long ago and far away" it would seem as though that would be STRONGLY doubted – unless it was told in religion promotional literature and/or by prophets and priests.

Why set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature?

[bjs]

While there appear to be some flaws in the premise, for the sake of this thread I am going to assume that the opening post is an accurate analogy.

Would I buy a car just on the seller’s word? That depends on what my other options are.

I could hold on the money and do nothing with it, but what’s the use of money that I’m not doing anything with?

I could try to find a car (house, yacht, etc.) that I could examine personally, but what if that’s not available? What if I just find a bunch of other sellers and no one who is actually able to show me their product directly? If that is the case then it would seem that I must choose between holding on to a pile of worthless green paper or taking a risk on a purchase I can’t fully verify.

Now let us set the analogy aside. For the purposes of this thread let us assume that Christianity, or any other theistic worldview, cannot be verified. Can anyone verify any non-theistic worldview?

If so, please present this information so that we may all examine it.

If not then it would seem that you are complaining that theists “set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature,� while at the same time asking us to set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept a non-theistic worldview.

Until a non-theistic worldview can be verified, I am going to invest my life in Christ. I am going to invest my life in love and hope and peace and godliness. I am going to worship and rejoice. I may ultimately be wrong, but until someone can provide stronger evidence for a different worldview it would seem foolish to abandon my faith for no reason.

[Zzyzx]

.

While there appear to be some flaws in the premise, for the sake of this thread I am going to assume that the opening post is an accurate analogy.

Would I buy a car just on the seller’s word? That depends on what my other options are.

I could hold on the money and do nothing with it, but what’s the use of money that I’m not doing anything with?

I could try to find a car (house, yacht, etc.) that I could examine personally, but what if that’s not available?

An astute buyer would realize that there are professional organizations that can be hired to investigate the item under consideration. Few are naive enough to buy real estate without having an attorney or title company search the title. Yacht buyers are be foolish enough to purchase a boat without having a professional "survey" the vessel. A car buyer might be wise to have a competent mechanic evaluate their potential purchase.

There is a saying about "buying a pig in a poke" that applies to those who fail to make "due diligence" investigation before laying out the cash. The word "gullible" applies also – meaning "easily fooled, defrauded or cheated."

However, if you (generic term) are comfortable buying into a deal without checking, by all means continue doing so. Many people will appreciate having you as a customer.

What if I just find a bunch of other sellers and no one who is actually able to show me their product directly?

You are free to do whatever you wish. If I encountered only sellers who would not allow inspection of their product, I would NOT buy from them.

If that is the case then it would seem that I must choose between holding on to a pile of worthless green paper or taking a risk on a purchase I can’t fully verify.

Is the "worthless green paper" to which you refer a currency that is currently in circulation? If so, it is not worthless if it can be exchanged for other items. One might exchange the "green paper" for food, clothing, shelter, tools, certain metals, etc.

Now let us set the analogy aside. For the purposes of this thread let us assume that Christianity, or any other theistic worldview, cannot be verified. Can anyone verify any non-theistic worldview?

My Non-Theistic worldview is that I live in the biosphere of the Earth and adapt to conditions therein – including human interactions. There may be some who "require" verification that the biosphere (or the Earth) exists or that I am alive or that I adapt. To them I say "have a nice day in La La Land."

If so, please present this information so that we may all examine it.

I present the Earth and its biosphere. Examine away.

If not then it would seem that you are complaining that theists “set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature,� while at the same time asking us to set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept a non-theistic worldview.

Notice that I ask no one to do anything.

Until a non-theistic worldview can be verified, I am going to invest my life in Christ.

Preachers seem inclined to convince people to make such investments (and donations).

am going to invest my life in love and hope and peace

Many of all theistic positions invest life in love, hope and peace – no gods required.

and godliness.

Thousands of "gods", tens of thousands of worship systems / religions – all (most) seeming to think they know about supernaturalism and about an "afterlife."

I am going to worship and rejoice. I may ultimately be wrong, but until someone can provide stronger evidence for a different worldview it would seem foolish to abandon my faith for no reason.

Many people seem to NEED faith to give their life structure, purpose and control (or to keep them from running amok according to some). I encourage them to continue worshiping whatever gods they choose.

However, when they claim in public that they have knowledge about supernatural entities or events, I typically challenge them to demonstrate that they speak truthfully and accurately.

None seem up to the task. They quote anonymous ancient writers telling stories about "gods" or cite testimonials about psychological / emotional episodes – and seem to think that is sufficient "evidence" of miracles, divinity, afterlife, etc.


Does it appear to anyone else that often Theists are willing to take unreasonable positions or make foolish statements in an effort to defend theism?

[bjs]

.

While there appear to be some flaws in the premise, for the sake of this thread I am going to assume that the opening post is an accurate analogy.

Would I buy a car just on the seller’s word? That depends on what my other options are.

I could hold on the money and do nothing with it, but what’s the use of money that I’m not doing anything with?

I could try to find a car (house, yacht, etc.) that I could examine personally, but what if that’s not available?

An astute buyer would realize that there are professional organizations that can be hired to investigate the item under consideration. Few are naive enough to buy real estate without having an attorney or title company search the title. Yacht buyers are be foolish enough to purchase a boat without having a professional "survey" the vessel. A car buyer might be wise to have a competent mechanic evaluate their potential purchase.

There is a saying about "buying a pig in a poke" that applies to those who fail to make "due diligence" investigation before laying out the cash. The word "gullible" applies also – meaning "easily fooled, defrauded or cheated."

However, if you (generic term) are comfortable buying into a deal without checking, by all means continue doing so. Many people will appreciate having you as a customer.

Okay. Can I use the services to check out the car (house, yacht, etc.) from the opening post? If so, wonderful! The issue is resolved. If not, then why is it I am able to use it on other products but not on the ones first mentioned in this thread?

What if I just find a bunch of other sellers and no one who is actually able to show me their product directly?

You are free to do whatever you wish. If I encountered only sellers who would not allow inspection of their product, I would NOT buy from them.

If that is the case then it would seem that I must choose between holding on to a pile of worthless green paper or taking a risk on a purchase I can’t fully verify.

Is the "worthless green paper" to which you refer a currency that is currently in circulation? If so, it is not worthless if it can be exchanged for other items. One might exchange the "green paper" for food, clothing, shelter, tools, certain metals, etc.

Currency is only useful if you can spend it. If you (generic term) are unwilling to buy anything that you cannot check before hand – and in the analogy that has been provided that means you are unwilling to buy anything at all – then currency is just worthless paper.

Now let us set the analogy aside. For the purposes of this thread let us assume that Christianity, or any other theistic worldview, cannot be verified. Can anyone verify any non-theistic worldview?

My Non-Theistic worldview is that I live in the biosphere of the Earth and adapt to conditions therein – including human interactions. There may be some who "require" verification that the biosphere (or the Earth) exists or that I am alive or that I adapt. To them I say "have a nice day in La La Land."

Great. I agree. I also believe that chocolate chip cookies taste good and that it is usually darker at night than during the daytime.

This opening post in this thread explicitly brought up religion. We will need to have non-theistic worldview that actually addresses the same issues that religions address. These bland statements that both theists and non-theist can agree with add nothing to this discussion.

If not then it would seem that you are complaining that theists “set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature,� while at the same time asking us to set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept a non-theistic worldview.

Notice that I ask no one to do anything.

The idea is so heavily implied in the opening post that the statement “I ask no one to do anything� borders on the ridiculous.

Until a non-theistic worldview can be verified, I am going to invest my life in Christ.

Preachers seem inclined to convince people to make such investments (and donations).

Sigh. The subtle (but not that subtle) implication that preachers are a mainly after donations is tiresome. If you can support the claim with evidence then make the claim outright and show your evidence. Otherwise it just wastes time.

I am going to worship and rejoice. I may ultimately be wrong, but until someone can provide stronger evidence for a different worldview it would seem foolish to abandon my faith for no reason.

Many people seem to NEED faith to give their life structure, purpose and control (or to keep them from running amok according to some). I encourage them to continue worshiping whatever gods they choose.

However, when they claim in public that they have knowledge about supernatural entities or events, I typically challenge them to demonstrate that they speak truthfully and accurately.

None seem up to the task. They quote anonymous ancient writers telling stories about "gods" or cite testimonials about psychological / emotional episodes – and seem to think that is sufficient "evidence" of miracles, divinity, afterlife, etc.

Both theists and non-theists NEED many things and believe what they believe for a variety of reasons. That does not change that fact that, even giving non-theism every advantage, as of yet there is nothing in this thread which makes theism less reasonable then non-theism. The public claim implicit in the opening post that people “set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature� has not been demonstrated to be “truthful and accurate.�

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

It's the scams you fall for when you don't believe in Jesus that cost you the most in this material life.

How many people chase the latest products or buy new cars and have loans thy can't afford trying to follow the gods of this age?

As far as scams go Christianity seems very cheap.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

It's the scams you fall for when you don't believe in Jesus that cost you the most in this material life.

How many people chase the latest products or buy new cars and have loans thy can't afford trying to follow the gods of this age?

As far as scams go Christianity seems very cheap.

I'm curious about the scams that Jesus stops people from believing in. Can you be specific about what it is that Jesus does that stops such beliefs?

To be clear, we are talking about the Jesus from the Bible that has talking snakes and donkeys right? It's that Jesus that stops people from believing scams, right? Gotta love the irony.

[Zzyzx]

.

However, if you (generic term) are comfortable buying into a deal without checking, by all means continue doing so. Many people will appreciate having you as a customer.

Okay. Can I use the services to check out the car (house, yacht, etc.) from the opening post? If so, wonderful! The issue is resolved.

Thank you. Those services are available.

If not, then why is it I am able to use it on other products but not on the ones first mentioned in this thread?

The services are also available to investigate the CLAIMS and tales of walking on water (or turning water into wine or coming back to life after days in the grave). The professionals involved are 1) physicists who study natural processes (and determine that walking on water is not possible without tricks), 2) chemists and vintners who study the process of wine making (and determine that more than water is required and months of time is necessary, 3) forensic biologists who study decomposition processes in dead organisms (and determine that decomposition is rapid and is irreversible), and 4) Illusion busters who determine that "magical" feats are tricks.

Is the "worthless green paper" to which you refer a currency that is currently in circulation? If so, it is not worthless if it can be exchanged for other items. One might exchange the "green paper" for food, clothing, shelter, tools, certain metals, etc.

Currency is only useful if you can spend it.

Notice my qualifier "currently in circulation" – which indicates that it can be spent to acquire other things.

Your attempt to limit spending by proposing that ALL sellers refuse to allow inspection of what they sell is unrealistic. Those who wish to sell and who have nothing to hide are motivated to allow an interested potential buyer to inspect before buying. Those who DO have something to hide may attempt to disallow inspection, questions, investigation, challenge, etc.

If you (generic term) are unwilling to buy anything that you cannot check before hand – and in the analogy that has been provided that means you are unwilling to buy anything at all – then currency is just worthless paper.

Being a realist with some experience in the real world, I understand that I CAN find products to buy with existing circulating currency that I CAN check before buying. If a seller refuses to allow inspection of a car, house, boat, etc I simply go elsewhere to a seller who does allow inspection (perhaps has nothing to hide).

No one (and no analogy) can prevent me from patronizing those who allow inspection.

This opening post in this thread explicitly brought up religion. We will need to have non-theistic worldview that actually addresses the same issues that religions address. These bland statements that both theists and non-theist can agree with add nothing to this discussion.

Why attempt to require that a Non-Theistic worldview "address the same issues that religions address?"

The primary issue of Theism / religion appears to be worshiping proposed invisible, undetectable, supernatural "gods" that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination.

Notice that I ask no one to do anything.

The idea is so heavily implied in the opening post that the statement “I ask no one to do anything� borders on the ridiculous.

"Heavily implies" and "ridiculous" are PERSONAL "interpretations"

Until a non-theistic worldview can be verified, I am going to invest my life in Christ.

Preachers seem inclined to convince people to make such investments (and donations).

Sigh. The subtle (but not that subtle) implication that preachers are a mainly after donations is tiresome. If you can support the claim with evidence then make the claim outright and show your evidence. Otherwise it just wastes time.

Without donations (or state support) religions cannot build their palaces of worship or pay the salaries of preachers and the hierarchy.

I am going to worship and rejoice. I may ultimately be wrong, but until someone can provide stronger evidence for a different worldview it would seem foolish to abandon my faith for no reason.

Many people seem to NEED faith to give their life structure, purpose and control (or to keep them from running amok according to some). I encourage them to continue worshiping whatever gods they choose.

However, when they claim in public that they have knowledge about supernatural entities or events, I typically challenge them to demonstrate that they speak truthfully and accurately.

None seem up to the task. They quote anonymous ancient writers telling stories about "gods" or cite testimonials about psychological / emotional episodes – and seem to think that is sufficient "evidence" of miracles, divinity, afterlife, etc.

Both theists and non-theists NEED many things and believe what they believe for a variety of reasons. That does not change that fact that, even giving non-theism every advantage, as of yet there is nothing in this thread which makes theism less reasonable then non-theism. The public claim implicit in the opening post that people “set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature� has not been demonstrated to be “truthful and accurate.�

The intent of the originator of this thread (who I happen to know very well) might be to encourage Theists to demonstrate that they ARE willing to set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept (or defend) religious tales.

They have, for instance, proposed that accepting without checking may be necessary in purchasing a car, house or boat (when that is not the case because alternatives exist) – and proposed that currency in circulation is "worthless" (perhaps if one is unwilling to purchase sight unseen).

Readers will decide for themselves what has been demonstrated by posts in this thread (which already has 190 views in two days). Please carry on.

[1213]

You know Jesus? Please ask him what I had for breakfast.

That I know Jesus doesn’t mean that I can ask everything.

Also if I would get for example answer “tomato juice, orange, toast�, how could I trust that you admit if I would have correct answer?

In my opinion that question and possible answer doesn’t lead to anywhere, because you could tell that it was not correct, even if it would be correct. And it could also be said that it was a coincidence. It wouldn’t prove anything, so it is pointless.

Tell him that I am trying to determine if one of his claimed followers is trustworthy or not.

I think he hears you.

[Clownboat]

You know Jesus? Please ask him what I had for breakfast.

That I know Jesus doesn’t mean that I can ask everything.

Also if I would get for example answer “tomato juice, orange, toast�, how could I trust that you admit if I would have correct answer?

In my opinion that question and possible answer doesn’t lead to anywhere, because you could tell that it was not correct, even if it would be correct. And it could also be said that it was a coincidence. It wouldn’t prove anything, so it is pointless.

Tell him that I am trying to determine if one of his claimed followers is trustworthy or not.

I think he hears you.

Even if I chose to lie, I would still know and be affected by Jesus's knowledge through you.

In what way do you claim to know Jesus? Like you know your neighbor, or more like how you know a character in a book?

I must assume the latter. If your neighbor knew what I had for breakfast, I think you would have asked him by now and wowed me. Since it appears that the answer is the latter, you don't know Jesus any better than anyone else, so claiming to know him seems a bit nonsensical if you ask me.

Perhaps you can clarify this level of "knowing Jesus"?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by Clownboat]

For instance Jesus asks us to build up our treasures in heaven and not look to earthly rewards - which are vain.

This allows the faithful to have the courage to not fall for the many materialist traps that will leave you in a cycle of poverty.

So one scam that sees me tithe each week beats another scam that sees me max my credit card and try to pay down the interest. The only difference between the two scams is the friendships, the love, the sound teaching I hear and the joy and hope I have. Heck I don't even have to give at all.

If you really truly appreciated irony you would also appreciate the irony that is available to those on my side of the fence.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 19 by Wootah]

It seems to me the cost Jesus asks is everything in your life(your mind, your health, your material possessions). As far as I can tell that is the steepest cost one can possibly pay. The promise in an afterlife holds no weight with me as it has not been demonstrated to me. Sounds like a snake oil sales pitch to me.