What is TRUE "Free Will"?

[Danmark]

You say that "we can never have absolute knowledge". Well, if there were some Omnipotent god, then that would be an EASY thing for him to give us! Since we are speaking about religion, how can you say that "we can never have absolute knowledge" if he is All Powerful?? Unless you acknowledge that there is no such thing as that Omnipotent, Perfect god? Is that what you are saying?

And since what is on the line is ETERNAL Damnation, I would think that a Loving god would give us all more than what we have now.

So for those of you that say we do have more than enough Proof of this god, then I ask: "Why are there now over 40k different denominations that use the Bible as their Holy Book??" That's not even counting all the other religions that use other "Holy Books"! What that says is, even the people that believe in the Bible can't agree as to what exactly is says!

[emphasis applied]
I say it because this idea of an omnipotent God is mere fanciful speculation. But let's suppose it is not, and that the God described in Genesis is this omnipotent God. In the Genesis myth God clearly commanded man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
So even if you posit that God could grant man omniscience, according to Genesis, he's agin it.

2 things:

1. it has to be asked then, Is the god of the Bible Omniscient or not? For those religious people, they can't have it one way in one debate, then another way in another debate.

2. About Knowledge - That's where one has to ask: Why would a Good God not want us to have KNOWLEDGE!?? Why forbid that? Knowledge of ANY kind?? That makes no sense...............unless this supposed god.......is EVIL and doesn't want us finding out?

I don't disagree with any of this. The God of the Bible does not exist and religious people can say what they will about him. It does not make it so. I agree there are certainly contradictions in the Bible, including those dealing with his omnipotence.

I also agree, "Why would a Good God not want us to have knowledge?" Indeed, why not. I have no problem with the idea that this mythical 'God' is not good, insofar as he is depicted in the 'Bible.' In fact, just the contrary; there are many arguments taken directly from scripture that suggest this God is not good at all by our standards. He is an anthropomorphic image of a god created by men and he reflects man's fears and character flaws. This Biblical depiction of a god, has nothing to do with an actual God that one might theorize exists in reality.

[arian]

Wow! Master Spade and Danmark has come to the absolute, undeniable conclusion that god a Deity/demon, or a religiously created god, or a fairytale god, not that it matters to them since they consider God/god/gods all the same no matter where the idea comes from, that it/they don't exist, all on a good OP What is TRUE "Free Will" that I was just getting into.

How about we get off your religious never-ending preaching that god doesn't exist, which always seems to be the whole point of any of your conversations, or at least the conclusion of all your conversations, and actually come to some agreeable conclusion on the OP itself?

Hey, I for one agree, that the gods you guys are talking about, (and seems to me so far every other religious person here talks about) is, are NOT REALLY God. We cannot say they don't exist, even our Creator admits they exist, the only thing He has against them is that they are NOT HIM. They are what they are, either demons elevated to some gods like the plural demon Legion that every Christian worships, or they are totally ridiculous carved images. In either case, they are NOT God our Creator.
We were NOT created in the image of Lucifer, or any of those wood/stone carved images, no matter how good of a story they create to make them out to be.

So how about it, have you reached a decision on 'What is true Free Will' or not?

I posted my view a few posts back, but no one responded, it was about the train on a train track. This a very interesting Post, so can we get back to it, .. please?

Here is my understanding of free will so far:
The train analogy;

We have one track with a train on it. we give the train free will, but since we created both the train and the track, the train can only travel on that one-track, .. do you agree?
The train looks around and says: "hey, this is not true free will, I see all that beautiful valleys and woods and rivers out there, but I'm stuck traveling this ONE track. I want to go anywhere I please!"

Fine we say. So we create tracks leading every direction, at every point on that original track. Now the train not only does he have free will, but can exercise it also. Another words; "The train has True Free Will". Any suggestions, opinions, .. did I leave anything out?

Now as to God being all knowing. This is not about your religiously 'created gods' that you guys just refuse to leave behind, this is the Creator, not one of His creations, or one of our created gods, but THE Creator, whom there is no one besides, no one needed, or could have besides. The I Am Who I Am, OK?

Now just like for our train, it could have free will, or we could give it free will, but if it doesn't have the ability to exercise its free will, it's not free will right? Do you agree so far?
So with us little gods, or Children of God, our Father gave us true free will where we can do anything,. unlike the train, if we can't fly, we invent a way that we could.

Now to take away that misconception about the 'Tree of Knowledge' as Lucifer insists we should refer to it as;

First and foremost, it is NOT, ... and I repeat; "It is NOT a tree of all encompassing knowledge" it is a Tree like any other. The fruit on it was like any other. It was Gods command "Don't touch it lest ye die", the dying part that Adam didn't know yet. Dying is the evil, and since Adam only knew good, taking of it and breaking Gods command "not to", his eyes were opened.

But OPENED to what? To some bull-dudu all encompassing wisdom Satan keeps cramming down peoples throats? Of course not, unless you believe life is not worth living if you don't feel pain, disease, hunger, shame, loneliness, confusion? If that was true, why do people, including Bible-bashers, or Gods instruction bashers depend on police, judges and justice?

All Goodness like Adam and Eve knew and enjoyed is a realm of its own. In this realm there is no suffering, nothing inconvenient exists in this realm. It's all good, and gets better every moment throughout eternity. Good that gets better never gets boring (like many mistakenly believe). 'I would love to be able to get a newer, better, faster car every year', it is that kind of good.

When Adam and Eve chose (exercised their free will) to go against Gods command, another words; they wanted to be separated from God because God is all Good, they chose to rebel. "We don't want good, we want to see what this death is?" (just like our kids insist on doing, and when they get it, they bitch and moan), and immediately they stepped in a realm of evil. The Heavenly perfect realm disappeared, and they found themselves naked and ashamed. Entropy was introduced, decay and death now ruled over man, animals, the world, and the entire universe.

Now what was their reaction, .. was it: "Oh WOW, .. this is beautiful! We are so illuminated now, we are so much wiser now! Oh yea, this is life, not that 'only good and more good by the moment garbage' this completes us. Now we are like God!"
LOL, .. not even close. It was more like; "Oh man, .. I feel naked, ashamed. Look at you Eve, you look like an indecent slut, go and get something to cover yourself, and make something for me too. Oh boy, you hear that? I hear Gods footsteps, He is here to chat with us, to visit with us like he always does every day right about now before we go to bed. Quickly let's hide!"

Now if we were to build tracks for the train that covers all possible directions, as soon as that train took one turn, or took another track from the one it was on, we would know where that track will lead, right?

So it is with God. which ever road we chose at the moment, He knows where it leads. This is how I understand God all-knowingness, and I can use the Bible to back me up on this.

But here is what is incredible, God gave us free will, which means we can change our mind at any time. So how would He know where I will end up, since the Bible is clear that He DOES! But How? The possibilities are infinite!

And here is how I believe God knows, .. we are predictable. Even we can predict what certain people with certain backgrounds will do, .. right? But still, how can God predict with such accuracy where before He even created the universe and us he prepared His Son that he will have to come down to save us?

It has to be because of His infinite wisdom. He knows down to the smallest particles what they will do, how they will react to other forces. His 'predictions' are perfect, and still leaves us with absolute Free Will.

So why not listen to His suggestions? If He says 'don't do that', it is not because He wants to limit our free will, it is to keep us from danger, from bringing more pain and suffering on ourselves.

This is what's been revealed to me for now, I would love to hear others take on it of course, we are all individuals, and if our intent is mutual, for good, .. then sharing just gets us closer and closer to the truth.

Unless of course you are stuck in some religious cult that limits your 'Free Will', because I can tell you with absolute certainty that God Does Not. If He did, you would not be able to deny Him like billions do today. It wouldn't be; "You better do as I tell you!", it would be 'we DO exactly like God commands, not one quantum gravity wave more, or less, but exactly as told'

You have absolute free will, what will you do next, what's your next move friend? Please, .. don't just say; "God doesn't exist, .. or that absolute Free Will doesn't exist", prove it.

[ThePainefulTruth]

So I ask,

1. Can we have True "Free Will" without having ALL the Information?

Actually, we can only have true free will if we have no knowledge that God exists. Otherwise, we are always aware that God is looking at us over our shoulder.

2. Why wouldn't a Loving "god" want us to make an Informed Decision?? Why aren't we given True Free Will!??

We are, if God exists, given true free will. An informed decision about what, morality? Our full-self awareness is the inherent basis for a moral code, because it forces us to understand the results of our actions on others because we automatically realize what it would be like to be in their shoes. Those who force themselves to ignore that realization must also learn to ignore the guilt, but that only relegates it to our subconscious.

3. Can you explain WHY a "Loving god" would want us ignorant and confused about him? Why would he have us make an Uninformed Decision that will effect us for All of Eternity!??[/quote]

That's just question 2 restated.

[LittlePig]

Personally I think that debating coercion and degrees of freedom is a cart-before-the-horse problem. If the universe is deterministic, and if our choices are deterministic sub-processes, and if God set up the dominos... then creation and 'coercion' are more or less the same thing.

The critical issue in Christian discussions is deflecting blame to God for evil/sin. If God knew what he was creating and what his creation would choose, then where does the defect in all of this lie? In a product performing as designed, or in the designer? If evil/sin is not a defect per se, but part of the plan, then what does that say about God who plans for his creation to mostly suffer and perish?

Claiming that humans make choices, whatever kinds of choices those are, however well-informed or immediately uncoerced, does not address either horn of the dilemma. Either God bears blame as the ultimate creator of evil, or evil is a terrible (but good) necessity, i.e. one 'has' to break millions of eggs to make an omelette. Neither horn of the dilemma is (IMO) completely compatible with the Bible.

[ttruscott]

Did the Israelites in the desert make a free will commitment to the covenant and its conditions for themselves and their descendants?

Did the descendants have free will to be born under the Law?

My contention is that they did not, but these decisions were a result of their free will choices pre-earth. Sinners have no free will due to being addicted to evil. All on earth are sinners. Therefore until one has his addiction to evil cured or broken by rebirth, he has no free will.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

I'm sorry, agnosticatheist, I do not seem to have answered this post for some reason, sigh... of if I did, I can't find where so I guess this would be a double.

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Ted,

I have few questions and comments.

1. During our PCE, when we made our free will decision, were we given proof of God's existence?

No sir, just HIS claims and promises, no proof.

2. During our PCE, when we made our free will decision, why did each soul make the decision they did? Was it because of the nature of their soul? Was it just chance?

It was neither. We had grown into intellectually capable 'adults' in a spiritual society and grew in an understanding of what we liked and disliked within our scope. When GOD decided it was time for us to decide our relationship with HIM, we had a strong emotional and intellectual base for which to look at the claims and to decide if they fit where we might look for an eternal happiness or not.

Nothing in our created nature caused or forced our decision either way, nor was it mere chance. When we chose, we were all choosing form our inner desires we had built up by past choices and experiences which I contend were all managed by GOD so as to be influential but not coercive.

If we replayed the scenario of their decision over many times, would every soul choose the same choice every time, or would there be at least one soul who would choose a different choice at least one time out of those many times?

I have no means to know...

If it's the former, then our decision making is ultimately determined by the circumstances that led up to that decision being made, and we no have true free will. In this case, God is basically a monster because he created the circumstances which led up to each soul's decision being made, and thus determined their eternal fate.

Or He was a kindly Father that made sure that at the time of choice everyone had an equal opportunity, no matter what circumstances had led up to that moment , to fulfill HIS plan to share the heavenly state with us...why would HE monster people He had created for heaven? HE had no need for evil to fulfill HIS heavenly plan, nor any need for evil people at all.

If it's the latter, then the mechanism by which we make decisions is subject to chance. In this case, perhaps God isn't as big of a monster, but then I would question the moral character of a God who leaves the eternal fate of people's souls up to chance.

I reject this as not being reflective of a true loving GOD with an innocent people...

3. "who would actually ever choose to reject the Living GOD, EL SHADDAI as their GOD!!??? " Apparently, Satan and one third of the angels in Heaven chose to do just that.

No sir, I contend they must have concluded their deliberations and discussions of all the possibilities and consequences with their friends etc by deciding that HE was a liar (no proof, remember) and that HIS so called promise of election to heaven by salvation from all sin was just a manipulation to gain followers, the act of a malignant ego driven megalomaniac. I also contend that they based this response to HIM due to their decision that as a person, they were as good as anybody, divine or not, that no superior god like creator could exist to be above them and therefore he must be a liar.

Whether the 1/3 swept to earth with Satan refers only to all the demonic angels or includes also the sinful elect who are redeemable and under the promise that they will be re-joined to HIM after being made heaven ready, is still open.

Peace, Ted