Does God have a God?

[Elijah John]

Ephesians 1:3:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

And John20.17:
"......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

------------------------

Questions for debate:

-Does God have a God? and if not,

-How then can anyone say that Jesus IS God, since it is clear from these verses that he (like all believers) HAS a God?

[Mudcat]

Ephesians 1:3:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

And John20.17:
"......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

------------------------

Questions for debate:

-Does God have a God? and if not,

-How then can anyone say that Jesus IS God, since it is clear from these verses that he (like all believers) HAS a God?

I don't think God has a God . Scripture seems clear there is one God, though it gives recognition to the notion of other gods.

Given your proof text, the idea of Jesus being God would be a difficult notion to digest if that is all the Scripture we had. John 1 does an excellent job of spelling out the idea that Jesus (the Word) was God though.

There are differing views amongst Christians on views of God Trinity, Modalism, etc...

Haven't been on the forum much. Dunno if you are Christian, but if so, how do you reconcile statements like John 1, with your submitted verses?

[Elijah John]

Ephesians 1:3:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

And John20.17:
"......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

------------------------

Questions for debate:

-Does God have a God? and if not,

-How then can anyone say that Jesus IS God, since it is clear from these verses that he (like all believers) HAS a God?

I don't think God has a God . Scripture seems clear there is one God, though it gives recognition to the notion of other gods.

Given your proof text, the idea of Jesus being God would be a difficult notion to digest if that is all the Scripture we had. John 1 does an excellent job of spelling out the idea that Jesus (the Word) was God though.

There are differing views amongst Christians on views of God Trinity, Modalism, etc...

Haven't been on the forum much. Dunno if you are Christian, but if so, how do you reconcile statements like John 1, with your submitted verses?

Well, at best, the Bible is contradictory on that issue. But I think the Prologue to John has the Evangelist speaking poetically, equating the "Word" principal of the Gospel, to the Wisdom principal in the book of Proverbs. In that OT book, the author also personifies Wisdom, and I think John was basically doing the same thing.

Welcome to the forums, Mudcat. And to answer your wonderin', I am a Christian, in the Synoptic sense, but not in the Johannine, or the Pauline sense which is the basis for modern Trinitarianism and Jesus worshiping Churches.

Although some would say that I am not a true Christian, I consider myself one because:

-I worship the God of Jesus, YHVH
-I pattern my prayer life on Jesus prayer, (the "Our Father") and I
-Embrace Jesus Golden rule.

Simple as that.

[Wootah]

Ephesians 1:3:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

And John20.17:
"......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

------------------------

Questions for debate:

-Does God have a God? and if not,

-How then can anyone say that Jesus IS God, since it is clear from these verses that he (like all believers) HAS a God?

Christians believe that Jesus is man and God. As a man the above makes sense.

Christians believe that God is a Trinity of beings. It may well be possible that the being called the Father is eternally relationally the Father to the being called the Son.

But I lean to the first explanation. Jesus is showing us the way to God.

As you and Mudcat just discussed there are many other passages that intimate Jesus is God.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

There are even more verses that intimate that Jesus is NOT God (like most of the Apostolic salutations in the Epistles, and even a few verses in John). Not equal to the Father means not God. Else we have a "greater God" and a "lesser God", thus polytheism.

And you say "Christians this" and "Christians that"...I too, am a Christian, but do not believe the way that you do. Christians DIFFER, and you cannot generalize with sweeping statements.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

There are even more verses that intimate that Jesus is NOT God (like most of the Apostolic salutations in the Epistles, and even a few verses in John). Not equal to the Father means not God. Else we have a "greater God" and a "lesser God", thus polytheism.

And you say "Christians this" and "Christians that"...I too, am a Christian, but do not believe the way that you do. Christians DIFFER, and you cannot generalize with sweeping statements.

How is a man equal to God?

If you are a Christian then you follow Christ. Right? If you follow Christ and don't believe he is God then you are idol worshipping. Are you really a Christian?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

There are even more verses that intimate that Jesus is NOT God (like most of the Apostolic salutations in the Epistles, and even a few verses in John). Not equal to the Father means not God. Else we have a "greater God" and a "lesser God", thus polytheism.

And you say "Christians this" and "Christians that"...I too, am a Christian, but do not believe the way that you do. Christians DIFFER, and you cannot generalize with sweeping statements.

How is a man equal to God?

If you are a Christian then you follow Christ. Right? If you follow Christ and don't believe he is God then you are idol worshipping. Are you really a Christian?

How is NOT believing that Jesus is God "idol worshiping" Seems to me, the reverse may well be the case.

And for the record, I worship Jesus' Father and God, YHVH, and Him alone.

And please don't tell me that Jesus is YHVH. YHVH is the name of the FATHER, not the "son". Jesus is not the Father, even Trinitarians will admit this. Jesus said "Hallowed be THY name', not "hallowed be MY name" or "hallowed be OUR name".

And isn't it a bit preachy to attempt to limit the definition of Christian to your own particular belief system?

As far as I know, anyone who defines themselves as Christian IS a Christian, on these forums anyway.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

There are even more verses that intimate that Jesus is NOT God (like most of the Apostolic salutations in the Epistles, and even a few verses in John). Not equal to the Father means not God. Else we have a "greater God" and a "lesser God", thus polytheism.

And you say "Christians this" and "Christians that"...I too, am a Christian, but do not believe the way that you do. Christians DIFFER, and you cannot generalize with sweeping statements.

How is a man equal to God?

If you are a Christian then you follow Christ. Right? If you follow Christ and don't believe he is God then you are idol worshipping. Are you really a Christian?

If you follow Karl Marx, you are a Marxist. If you follow Christ, you are a Christian. Not all Marxists worship Marx. Not all Christians worship Christ. Some worship God as they understand that Christ taught.

[myth-one.com]

Ephesians 1:3:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

And John20.17:
"......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

------------------------

Questions for debate:

-Does God have a God? and if not,

-How then can anyone say that Jesus IS God, since it is clear from these verses that he (like all believers) HAS a God?

Jesus was not God:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Both Jesus Christ and all mankind were made "a little lower than the angels."

And we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth.

He could not die for our sins if He was a God!

He was made lower than the angels (a man) so that he could "taste death for every man."

[1213]

Haven't been on the forum much. Dunno if you are Christian, but if so, how do you reconcile statements like John 1, with your submitted verses?

I think it is based on this idea:

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.
John 13:20

Jesus is like Gods ambassador. He represents God on earth. That is why I think some speak about Jesus as God. I think it can be compared to worker that goes in the name of his company to meeting and speaks in the name of the company. He is like the company in that meeting, even though he is just man and just a worker, not the company.