Is God logically possible?

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

[ttruscott]

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Right. Kinda like how white people and black people are treated differently in America's judicial system. One method to judge one group, another method to judge the other group.

If you don't treat all people equally, you're not perfectly just.

But there is much more separating the reprobate from the sinful elect than color... the big difference is whether the criminal can be rehabilitated or not. That's it.

When GOD decides that a person will never be able to repent or to be rehabilitated, then Christians trust that estimate. That some sinners are able to repent and be rehabilitated, has nothing to do with the other group who cannot fulfill these things.

The difference is not that they are all equal but treated difference due to favouritism but they have made themselves into two different groups by their free will, one able to be rehabbed and one group unable to ever stop being evil. This is why they are treated differently...

If you use terrible cruelty and torture for some, and are infinitely nice to others, just because they are friends with your son, that's not perfect justice, that's corruption and cronyism.

This unproven allegation that HE lets some off of justice because they are friends of HIS son is too distorted to even be given credence from the Christian pov and seems to be a fantasy created out of hostility to YHWH and Christ.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

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Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?


Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

...

You do know that these absurdities that you fight against are not believed by all Christians, eh? Not interested? Ok,

Peace, Ted

[Mudcat]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

The Scriptures also claim that God is jealous. I don't think Paul was mistaken, rather that you are mistaken if you feel that is Paul's singular position on the matter, or the corpus of Scripture.

In Paul's second letter to Corinth he makes an interesting point.
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

I don't imagine that Paul argues against his previous position with this notion of godly jealousy. I figure he get's the multifaceted nature of God.

The Scripture used in the OP's syllogism to express contrary positions to Paul are likely verses Paul believed and accepted wholeheartedly.

IMO, a proof texted syllogism which removes Biblical context doesn't make much of a Biblical criticism and from what I can tell, that is all I get from the OP and consequent feed lines that see some point in the pointless.

[agchm]

Is God logically possible? Not the brightest of questions, as any scientist or mathematician will tell you, yes; it is very possible. The thing is applying logical to a non logical situation is fruitless and meaningless. The question has no merit. (I do not want o go down the 'logic' route that many others will in order to prove nothing)

[ttruscott]

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If a "creator god" was infinitely wise, omniscient, omnipotent, etc, etc it would be capable or smart enough to create "robots" or "humans" that did not trash the planet and kill each other.

Of course HE could...if HE wanted to. But what HE did want was true love and true holiness and both of these can only spring from a free will choice. Therefore robots and robotic humans could not fulfill HIS plans to share heaven with perfect love and holiness. The only people that could are those created in HIS image with the ability to make free will decisions which necessitated allowing them to choose against HIM or it was not a true choice, but coerced.

Thus, though it was not HIS plan for it to happen, nor did HE need the creation of evil and evil people for any reason, He was forced by HIS plan for our love and holiness to allow evil and sad to say, many took advantage of that.

That the proposed bible God supposedly produced humans that are defective (destructive, homicidal) mitigates against it being even moderately intelligent, much less "all-wise."

The word "supposedly" does not mitigate your responsibility for passing on this unproven assertion nor does it make the statement any better than rumour. It can't be proven from Scripture to fit YHWH nor can science prove the assertion to be true so it fails on both spiritual and secular modes.

It is 100% more in line with Christianity of all kinds that HE created Adam and Eve perfect and innocent. Far from being a defect their ability to make free will decisions was HIS crowning achievement in creation, even though it allowed evil to be created also.

I'm unaware of any sect that teaches what you suggest - and therefore, it is a straw man argument, with no applicability to the Christian story at all.

Supposedly the "God" realized its mistake a few thousand years ago and killed off all of humanity except eight it CHOSE to repopulate the Earth -- and even THAT did not solve the problem of trashing and killing.

imo
Remember the parable of the good but sinful seed in Matt 13 that teaches us there are two kinds of people here on earth...the people of the kingdom of heaven and the people of the evil one.

The story of Noah is a message to us of the end times written by history [sic]. GOD allowed the devil to fill the world with his people and angels and sent only 8 of HIS sinful elect into the mess. This was to prove 2 things:
1. that if the reprobated demonic tares are allowed to have their way in their own world, they will descend into total depravity and violence because their addiction to evil is never ending, it will never lead to better lifestyle but must always degrade.

2. The message to us is that even if the whole world is against us and the day of destruction is looming, that HE can and will save those HE chooses even if they have to spend 100 years building a boat! Like the movie says, "9 against a whole world? Great, we have them surrounded!!!"

Is the "God" just not smart enough to insure that humans are above such behavior? Perhaps an incompetent shouldn't be in charge -- even in the imagination.

The Bible tells us:
GOD did not need evil for any reason (and being holy HE could not / never would create it) but by choosing to have a pure and holy love relationship with HIS creation which necessitated their free will, He knew HE was opening the door to the creation of evil. So before HE even had us choose for HIM or against HIM, HE proclaimed the gospel salvation from all future sin to be found in HIS Son, the Christ.

This offer of election to heaven backed by the promise of salvation from all future sins PRECEDED our decision to accept HIM as our GOD or not. What can be more generous than that? You claim our evil proves HE is stupid. I claim that your ignorance of how Christians understand HIM and the creation of evil is all that allows you the leaway to make such mistakes.

Instead of inventing your own scenario with a stupid god and then rail at him for being as stupid as you created him,

please try to apply your definitions to my understanding of what is taught about GOD and HIS reality... Let's dissect PCE Christianity and see if we can find a stupid GOD, eh? You are good at dissection and I am good at suturing the wounds falsely made and explaining the reality of our beliefs.

Peace, Ted

[agchm]

Oh you speak for GOD now. He wanted this and He wanted that. Good to know we can turn to his voice on Earth, you. Holiness, surely a human trait. Why would GOD have to be holy, surely by being GOD he is holy.

[atheist buddy]

...

Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?


Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

...

You do know that these absurdities that you fight against are not believed by all Christians, eh? Not interested? Ok,

Peace, Ted

They are believed by some. Including you.

At least up until you stopped defending that belief. Changed your mind?

[McCulloch]

IMO, a proof texted syllogism which removes Biblical context doesn't make much of a Biblical criticism and from what I can tell, that is all I get from the OP and consequent feed lines that see some point in the pointless.

Many critics and promoters of the Bible ignore context while engaging in finding proof texts to support their favorite doctrine. Even some of the writers of the NT ripped passages of the OT out of context. Let's look at context to see which of the simple statements in the argument in the OP might be in error

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

One of the most beautiful and celebrated passages in the NT.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

“Then it shall come about when the Lord your God brings you into the land which He swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you, great and splendid cities which you did not build, and houses full of all good things which you did not fill, and hewn cisterns which you did not dig, vineyards and olive trees which you did not plant, and you eat and are satisfied, then watch yourself, that you do not forget the Lord who brought you from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.

[arian]

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Well let's see now? If you created a bunch of AI robots in your image, put them on a beautiful planet, with everything they will ever need, and they trash the planet, they kill each other . . . .

If a "creator god" was infinitely wise, omniscient, omnipotent, etc, etc it would be capable or smart enough to create "robots" or "humans" that did not trash the planet and kill each other.

That the proposed bible God supposedly produced humans that are defective (destructive, homicidal) mitigates against it being even moderately intelligent, much less "all-wise."

We debated this before, what you propose is a Vulcan population void of any human emotion. But give them all human emotions, and the freedom to exercise them, and this is what you get. The human emotions are not the problem, it is carelessly indulging in those emotions that's the problem.

Supposedly the "God" realized its mistake a few thousand years ago and killed off all of humanity except eight it CHOSE to repopulate the Earth -- and even THAT did not solve the problem of trashing and killing.

I know, man forgets. Just like after a man gets married, and then some pretty legs walk by and there he goes forgetting he is married. I guess that's Gods fault, right?

Is the "God" just not smart enough to insure that humans are above such behavior? Perhaps an incompetent shouldn't be in charge -- even in the imagination.

So are you competent enough to take the blame for every wrong your kids do? Or do you have your kids all Vulconized? If so, may they "Live Long and Prosper".

Sorry, .. I forgot you don't watch TV or Movies. You can Google what I was referring to if you wish!? I don't watch all the garbage either, but I do look into it to see what is going on around me.

[Zzyzx]

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That the proposed bible God supposedly produced humans that are defective (destructive, homicidal) mitigates against it being even moderately intelligent, much less "all-wise."

We debated this before, what you propose is a Vulcan population void of any human emotion.

Correction: I propose NOTHING – However, I would favor (not propose or hope for) a population that was taught critical / analytical thinking, sound decision making, relationship / interpersonal skills.

I choose to avoid overblown emotionalism and decisions based heavily on emotion – because I have found that reasoning from evidence is superior to guessing from "feelings."

But give them all human emotions, and the freedom to exercise them, and this is what you get. The human emotions are not the problem, it is carelessly indulging in those emotions that's the problem.

Is it "carelessly indulging in emotions" when one worships an invisible, undetectable, proposed, supernatural "god?" Or, is that based on sound, verifiable evidence?

Supposedly the "God" realized its mistake a few thousand years ago and killed off all of humanity except eight it CHOSE to repopulate the Earth -- and even THAT did not solve the problem of trashing and killing.

I know, man forgets.

If one proposes that their favorite "god" created humans "in his image" then the "god" produced forgetful humans – on purpose (unless "he" wasn't smart enough to realize what "he" was doing).

Just like after a man gets married, and then some pretty legs walk by and there he goes forgetting he is married.

Speak for yourself. Many other men do not "forget they are married" but instead are monogamous (regardless of pretty legs).

I guess that's Gods fault, right?

Let's see . . . . according to many Christians "God created humans in his image" – which might suggest that "god" has a thing for pretty legs and created human males to have similar characteristics?

Or is it more likely that humans created "gods" in their own image?

Is the "God" just not smart enough to insure that humans are above such behavior? Perhaps an incompetent shouldn't be in charge -- even in the imagination.

So are you competent enough to take the blame for every wrong your kids do?

I have no "kids" – my daughter and son are in their fifties. They have offspring who have offspring. I did not claim to make ANY of them in my image – and did not control their characteristics (as a "god" supposedly could / did).

Or do you have your kids all Vulconized? If so, may they "Live Long and Prosper".

It is generally considered rather low order "debate" to resort to personal comments. The Forum needs capable Theistic debaters who can debate issues honorably without foolish personal comments.

Sorry, .. I forgot you don't watch TV or Movies. You can Google what I was referring to if you wish!? I don't watch all the garbage either, but I do look into it to see what is going on around me.

It is common for people to claim that they are very selective in what they watch on television but the national average is 29 hours per week. I prefer to use that time more constructively – in actual reading and research (and some in debating – which occasionally presents an intellectual challenge).