Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Alethe
Student
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:02 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #1

Post by Alethe »

Atheists claim that life was created naturally and spontaneously from tiny chemicals into comparatively large, complex organisms (cells). They use "could have" a lot in theories, but when it's further explored, those theories run into scientific laws that say it "could not have". It is a massive jump from those tiny chemicals to cells and actually defies natural laws. Some of these laws include, but are not limited to:
  • *Probabilities: The sheer number of permutations required for even the simplest of molecules (proteins or ribozymes) defies laws of mathematics.
    *Limited Materials: No experiment, no observation, nor study of any pre-biotic Earth conditions (including space) is able to come close to producing all the components required for life in the same place at the same time (amino acids, nucleic acids - particularly troublesome, sugars, and fatty acids).
    *Homochirality: All experiments that produce life-required components also produce their mirrored image (racemic mixture), which prevents them from forming anything useful.
    *Energy: The necessary energy required to create peptide or phosphodiester bonds is also used to break those bonds, preventing them from forming the long chains necessary for life. An example; any lightning strikes that would form bonds would break the bonds the very next strike (consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics especially in an open system).
    *Oxygen: Oxygen prevents bonding, but also creates ozone, protecting from the sun's UV rays. Life can't form with oxygen and life would burn up without it.
    *Water: Water is a byproduct when peptide bonds form. Water also works in reverse to break down the bonds (hydrolysis). Therefore, proteins could not form in or around water (consistent with Le Chatelier's Principle).
You see, I like science. I can trust science because it performs in consistent ways. The natural laws above actually inhibit or prevent life from forming.

Atheists have to believe that to create life abiogenetically that these natural laws broke down and didn't work, that science didn't work. Since they have to believe that science doesn't work all the time, there must be some supernatural law that supersedes known scientific law.

That sounds a lot like faith. Why do atheists rely on faith? And what is it in the supernatural that they actually have faith in? :confused2:

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #71

Post by OnceConvinced »

Alethe wrote: Atheists have to believe that to create life abiogenetically that these natural laws broke down and didn't work, that science didn't work.
I don't have to believe anything. I'm happy enough just to say I don't know and maybe come up with some theories. Who says that Atheists have to believe any of this stuff?
That sounds a lot like faith. Why do atheists rely on faith? And what is it in the supernatural that they actually have faith in? :confused2:
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean you go along with any specific believes on how the universe got here. Atheists, unlike religious people do not have doctrines.

Faith to me seems very much like a weakness in many situations.

All I need to know is that I'm on this planet and that I have a life. It doesn't matter how I got here.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #72

Post by H.sapiens »

Alethe wrote: Atheists claim that life was created naturally and spontaneously from tiny chemicals into comparatively large, complex organisms (cells).
False claim.
Alethe wrote: They use "could have" a lot in theories, but when it's further explored, those theories run into scientific laws that say it "could not have".
False claim.
Alethe wrote: It is a massive jump from those tiny chemicals to cells
Quite true and much to the point. Most creationists demand a mud to cells occurance in a single step. Good Job.
Alethe wrote: and actually defies natural laws.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: Some of these laws include, but are not limited to:
  • *Probabilities: The sheer number of permutations required for even the simplest of molecules (proteins or ribozymes) defies laws of mathematics.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: *Limited Materials: No experiment, no observation, nor study of any pre-biotic Earth conditions (including space) is able to come close to producing all the components required for life in the same place at the same time (amino acids, nucleic acids - particularly troublesome, sugars, and fatty acids).
False claim.
Alethe wrote: *Homochirality: All experiments that produce life-required components also produce their mirrored image (racemic mixture), which prevents them from forming anything useful.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: *Energy: The necessary energy required to create peptide or phosphodiester bonds is also used to break those bonds, preventing them from forming the long chains necessary for life. An example; any lightning strikes that would form bonds would break the bonds the very next strike (consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics especially in an open system).
False claim.
Alethe wrote: *Oxygen: Oxygen prevents bonding, but also creates ozone, protecting from the sun's UV rays. Life can't form with oxygen and life would burn up without it.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: *Water: Water is a byproduct when peptide bonds form. Water also works in reverse to break down the bonds (hydrolysis). Therefore, proteins could not form in or around water (consistent with Le Chatelier's Principle).[/list]You see, I like science. I can trust science because it performs in consistent ways. The natural laws above actually inhibit or prevent life from forming.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: Atheists have to believe that to create life abiogenetically that these natural laws broke down and didn't work, that science didn't work.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: Since they have to believe that science doesn't work all the time, there must be some supernatural law that supersedes known scientific law.
False claim.
Alethe wrote: That sounds a lot like faith. Why do atheists rely on faith? And what is it in the supernatural that they actually have faith in? :confused2:
False claim.

Well ... you did better than usual, you got one thing right.

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #73

Post by FarWanderer »

H.sapiens wrote:
The problem is that no one would do science in the first place without some faith that they can learn something from it.
You are creating a tautology where none exists. I do science because I have been shown that I can learn by it, that has been demonstrated ... no "faith" involved.
Is that so? Tell me, why is it that you believe you have been "shown" anything at all?

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #74

Post by H.sapiens »

[Replying to FarWanderer]
Since I do not rely on faith and since I believe nothing I can not answer our question sensibly.

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #75

Post by FarWanderer »

H.sapiens wrote: [Replying to FarWanderer]
Since I do not rely on faith and since I believe nothing I can not answer our question sensibly.
What do you mean "believe nothing"? By my understanding of the words, one cannot even function without belief. Did you not believe I would comprehend the sentence you wrote? If not, why did you even write it?

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #76

Post by H.sapiens »

[Replying to post 72 by FarWanderer]

Just what I said. There is nothing that I take on "faith." Why is that so hard to understand?

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #77

Post by FarWanderer »

[Replying to H.sapiens]

I feel like you are more interested in shutting me down than understanding what I'm trying to say.

Shall we talk about the difference between the words "faith" and "belief"? Because we seem to be working from different definitions and it's hindering meaningful communication.

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #78

Post by H.sapiens »

[Replying to post 74 by FarWanderer]

I'm not "trying to shut you down" there's just nothing here. I a just not a believer, I am a statistician. Belief or faith is just the condition of pretending that something is 100% true or false when there is neither data nor analysis to lead to a such a surety.

"Faith" and "belief" are the shortcut that most people use, the problem is that it is binary ... it exists or it doesn't, one does not 'kinda have faith."

That is not how the trained scientific mind works, though we sometime commit a semantic slip and use those words when we mean "it is rather likely that ..."

Jashwell
Guru
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:05 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #79

Post by Jashwell »

[Replying to post 75 by H.sapiens]

Knowledge is a subset of belief... belief isn't specifically absent of evidence.
And even then, generalising all use of faith to mean belief absent of evidence is itself not entirely correct; faith is regularly used to mean trust - which is based on evidence.

(though as FarWanderer points out this discussion is not of that context, I probably should've been more specific)
I'd just say don't focus too much on specific words.
Last edited by Jashwell on Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: Do Athiests Rely on Faith?

Post #80

Post by FarWanderer »

H.sapiens wrote: [Replying to post 74 by FarWanderer]

I'm not "trying to shut you down" there's just nothing here. I a just not a believer, I am a statistician. Belief or faith is just the condition of pretending that something is 100% true or false when there is neither data nor analysis to lead to a such a surety.

"Faith" and "belief" are the shortcut that most people use, the problem is that it is binary ... it exists or it doesn't, one does not 'kinda have faith."

That is not how the trained scientific mind works, though we sometime commit a semantic slip and use those words when we mean "it is rather likely that ..."
Jashwell describes the words "faith" and "belief" exactly how I understand them. For the word "faith" I think we are on the same page (at least regarding what it means in the context of this discussion). However, my use of the word "belief" was meant to apply to anything that you hold true, whether it's based on evidence or not.

Given that, can you answer the question I asked earlier? Why is it that you hold true that you have been "shown" that you can learn from science?

Post Reply