should homosexuals be executed?

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:58 am

The bible clearly states that homosexual acts are punishable by death.

Lev 20:13

If a man lie swith another man the way he lies with a woman , both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death ;they have brought this on their own heads

It appears to me anything short of the death penalty is meaningless to God. Why won't the "straight agenda" recognize this?

Question for debate should there be a death penalty for LGBT individuals?

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:39 pm

OnceConvinced wrote: If you're gonna execution homosexuals because of what the bible says, then you should also kill the following:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27)
Death for Hitting parents (Exodus 21:15)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20, (Leviticus 20:9)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19, Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3, Deuteronomy 13:1-5)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21) â€“ which would include the majority of Christian women these days.
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath' (Exodus 31:12-15)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21)

It's those things in your post as well as the OP that always make me question the usual Christian catch-cry of "We (Christians) are obedient to the word of God."

Seems to me that we read the Bible and its contents if we care to as we might read any book while in the end we follow the dictates of our heart. This would also mean that if we're straight or if we're gay and we find someone we want to spend the rest of our lives with ...then we go ahead and do so with or without the approval of 'the book'. The above gives us plenty of reasons for ignoring the book and following the dictates of our heart.

In all seriousness, how CAN anyone say, "We Christians follow the word of God" and actually expect others to believe this ...?

help3434 · Post by **help3434** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:05 am

Haven wrote:
[color=darkred]KCKID[/color] wrote: I also know why the "fundies" would rather stay away from the question asked in the OP. Moreover, something that really irks me is the (apparent) 'feigned' outrage by the majority of Christians toward the Westboro Baptist Church whenever they publicly present their "God Hates Fags/Fags Must Die: See Leviticus 20:13" signs. While "I" personally don't believe that ANY of the biblical texts that allegedly condemn homosexuality have anything to do with homosexuality as we refer to it today, a huge majority of Christians DO believe that the Leviticus texts condemn homosexuality and they parrot the 'abomination' part constantly. And yet, these very same Christians jump up and down and act as if appalled at the WBC for posting 'the word of God' (Leviticus 20:13) on their banners. Do these 'fundie' Christians believe Leviticus 18:22/20:13 as being relevant for we of today or don't they ...?

Honestly, I cannot take Fundamentalist Christians seriously!
It's a total contradiction, and the fundamentalists seem oblivious to it. One can't have one's cake and eat it too. Fundamentalists should either accept that the Bible is authoritative (as the gospels report Jesus doing) and accept this barbaric punishment, or admit that the punishment is ludicrous and renounce strict Biblical literalism.

The Bible depicts Jesus as rejecting barbaric punishment and saving a woman taken in adultery from being stoned.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:46 am

[Replying to help3434]

Which is a perfectly good example of a biblical contradiction.

An absolute law that has clear cut terms as set by god for some moral reasons. Is suspended by that same god through a divine agent(jesus depending on your view)

Technically this makes Jesus a heretic rather than a prophet or agent of some divine principle.

Haven · Post by **Haven** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:35 am

Still no response from believers. I'm not surprised. There are blatant contradictions here--both in the Bible and traditional Christian doctrine ("buggery" being punishable by death, etc.)--and not a single conservative Christian dares to address it. Why?

As a gay person and a supporter of equality, I'm happy that progressive, secular New Mexican law rejects killing as a punishment for any offense and grants equal rights to LGBT people. This is just another example of secular reason being closer that Christian faith to principles of justice.

dbohm · Post by **dbohm** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:25 pm

Haven wrote: Still no response from believers. I'm not surprised. There are blatant contradictions here--both in the Bible and traditional Christian doctrine ("buggery" being punishable by death, etc.)--and not a single conservative Christian dares to address it. Why?

As a gay person and a supporter of equality, I'm happy that progressive, secular New Mexican law rejects killing as a punishment for any offense and grants equal rights to LGBT people. This is just another example of secular reason being closer that Christian faith to principles of justice.

There are judicial laws, ceremonial laws, covenantal laws, and natural law. The books of Leviticus and Exodus are a mishmash of all of them. According to Christian tradition and even Jewish tradition all of these can and have changed over time except natural law. Much of Leviticus concerns judicial and ceremonial laws that were applicable only for a certain time, people and place. These include the laws relating to stoning.

Let's get real though- the Church is not a secular power (using the Latin meaning of "secular") and so has no authority to punish anyone with death in any case. The worst it can do is excommunicate or withhold Holy Communion. Hardly frightening to someone without faith in a secular society.

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:25 am

dbohm wrote:
Haven wrote: Still no response from believers. I'm not surprised. There are blatant contradictions here--both in the Bible and traditional Christian doctrine ("buggery" being punishable by death, etc.)--and not a single conservative Christian dares to address it. Why?

As a gay person and a supporter of equality, I'm happy that progressive, secular New Mexican law rejects killing as a punishment for any offense and grants equal rights to LGBT people. This is just another example of secular reason being closer that Christian faith to principles of justice.
There are judicial laws, ceremonial laws, covenantal laws, and natural law. The books of Leviticus and Exodus are a mishmash of all of them. According to Christian tradition and even Jewish tradition all of these can and have changed over time except natural law. Much of Leviticus concerns judicial and ceremonial laws that were applicable only for a certain time, people and place. These include the laws relating to stoning.

Hmmm . . .the typical catch-cry of 'the Christian' is "God never changes. He is the same now as He always was and will ever be." Clearly, nothing could be further from the truth if we're to believe that laws have been given 'by God' for specific people (the Jews) only to have been revoked or changed later 'by God' for other specific people. Does God 'change' or doesn't He?

Where are we told in scripture of the laws that we are to (presently) hold on to and those that were supposedly 'nailed to the cross' and therefore no longer necessary to follow? Do we just guess or first check with our local minister? Or, do we just pick and choose those laws that we expect others to follow and those that we choose to discard for ourselves? Where does the Bible tell us that the stoning of people for committing certain offenses was withdrawn? In Jesus' day the stoning of adulterers was apparently 'still on the books' as it is - even today - in some countries! And, what on earth is 'natural law'? Is being a homosexual considered NOT to fall under 'natural law'?

dbohm · Post by **dbohm** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:16 am

KCKID wrote:
dbohm wrote:
Haven wrote: Still no response from believers. I'm not surprised. There are blatant contradictions here--both in the Bible and traditional Christian doctrine ("buggery" being punishable by death, etc.)--and not a single conservative Christian dares to address it. Why?

As a gay person and a supporter of equality, I'm happy that progressive, secular New Mexican law rejects killing as a punishment for any offense and grants equal rights to LGBT people. This is just another example of secular reason being closer that Christian faith to principles of justice.
There are judicial laws, ceremonial laws, covenantal laws, and natural law. The books of Leviticus and Exodus are a mishmash of all of them. According to Christian tradition and even Jewish tradition all of these can and have changed over time except natural law. Much of Leviticus concerns judicial and ceremonial laws that were applicable only for a certain time, people and place. These include the laws relating to stoning.
Hmmm . . .the typical catch-cry of 'the Christian' is "God never changes. He is the same now as He always was and will ever be." Clearly, nothing could be further from the truth if we're to believe that laws have been given 'by God' for specific people (the Jews) only to have been revoked or changed later 'by God' for other specific people. Does God 'change' or doesn't He?

The story of God's interactions with humankind has a beginning, middle and end - just in fact like all relationships. In a romantic relationship there are stages. First the meeting, then dating, then marriage. The obligations, intimacy and proper behaviour change according to the stage of the relationship. In the same way the Biblical account tells of the creation, the fall, the corruption of mankind and great flood, Abraham's call and God's choice of one tribe, God's covenant with the Jewish people, the promise of a messiah, Jesus's messiahship, the church and the final judgement. God never changed, but the chapter in the story did.

Where are we told in scripture of the laws that we are to (presently) hold on to and those that were supposedly 'nailed to the cross' and therefore no longer necessary to follow? Do we just guess or first check with our local minister? Or, do we just pick and choose those laws that we expect others to follow and those that we choose to discard for ourselves? Where does the Bible tell us that the stoning of people for committing certain offenses was withdrawn?

The Bible doesn't say explicitly. That's why the doctrine of sola scriptura is confusing at best not to mention logically incoherent. Before Jesus the scribes and the Pharisees 'sat in Moses' seat so people were to do as they said even though they were criticised as hypocrites. Jesus established a Church and told his apostles they had power to loose and to bind. So today we follow the apostle's teaching as handed down (traditum) through apostolic succession. Even from the beginning there was discussion of whether the Mosaic law was binding or not - as evidenced in the council of Jerusalem mentioned in Acts and Paul's letter to the Galatians.

And, what on earth is 'natural law'? Is being a homosexual considered NOT to fall under 'natural law'?

Natural law up until very recently has been the basis of all Western morality and laws, from Plato and Cicero to Locke and the foundation of the American Republic. For short intro see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law
For a brief intro into how natural law relates to other kinds of law in Christian theology see http://people.wku.edu/jan.garrett/302/aquinlaw.htm
And yes homosexuality is typically regarded as immoral under natural law.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:26 am

[Replying to post 17 by dbohm]

If you lived 3000 years ago would you support the execution by stoning of LGBT individuals?

dbohm · Post by **dbohm** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:57 pm

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

If you lived 3000 years ago would you have sacrificed your child to Baal on a burning plate?

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:33 pm

[Replying to dbohm]

If you lived now would you keep dodging questions?

As to your red herring. No I would not that is and was repugnant there is no context that makes it ok.