How do you distinguish or identify truth?

[Zzyzx]

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In one of the current threads AB asked an important question

How do you distinguish a true belief from a not-true belief, if not on the basis of the evidence?

In another thread Janavoss wisely observed:

I'm not expecting empirical evidence for something that would be a supernatural event, if it did happen.

How, then can anyone know if a supernatural event happened?

WHAT tells us any such thing happened besides "He said so" or "I think so?"

Does either of those constitute credible evidence?

[YahDough]

For believers the "LORD said so" should be the most credible evidence there is.

How do you know "the lord" actually "said so"? As opposed to some guy completely making it up and writing "the lord said so" on a piece of paper?

That would take the process of discernment which is one of the Spiritual gifts given to baptized believers in Christ.

Let me put it this way: "THE LORD SAID YOU SHOULD INVEST ON FACEBOOK STOCK".

The statement above declares that the lord wants you to do something. You believe the Lord exists, I assume. Why do you not take the statement above as one of the Lord's commands?

Unless the Holy Spirit bore witness to my spirit that was true, I could dismiss it.

It's because I - some guy you don't even know - asserts that the Lord said that. Right?

Well "some guy" could say that, but unless the Spirit if Truth within me bears witness that it is true I don't have to accept it.

Now, can you give me an example of something you believe the "Lord" said, which isn't in reality some guy you don't know asserting that the lord said it?

That doesn't matter. The Lord IS a Guy that I know. With the help of His Holy Spirit I can discern the truth of what is said.

[atheist buddy]

How do you know "the lord" actually "said so"? As opposed to some guy completely making it up and writing "the lord said so" on a piece of paper?

That would take the process of discernment which is one of the Spiritual gifts given to baptized believers in Christ.

Let me put it this way: "THE LORD SAID YOU SHOULD INVEST ON FACEBOOK STOCK".

The statement above declares that the lord wants you to do something. You believe the Lord exists, I assume. Why do you not take the statement above as one of the Lord's commands?

Unless the Holy Spirit bore witness to my spirit that was true, I could dismiss it.

It's because I - some guy you don't even know - asserts that the Lord said that. Right?

Well "some guy" could say that, but unless the Spirit if Truth within me bears witness that it is true I don't have to accept it.

Now, can you give me an example of something you believe the "Lord" said, which isn't in reality some guy you don't know asserting that the lord said it?

That doesn't matter. The Lord IS a Guy that I know. With the help of His Holy Spirit I can discern the truth of what is said.

Wow! That's AMAZING! You can discern whether something some person you don't even know says is true, even though you don't have access to direct evidence, with the help of the Holy Spirit?

That's AMAZING!!!!

That's an even better superpower than anything Aquaman has!

Well, lets test this amazing power which lets you discern truth without evidence.

I hereby declare that I just sent zzyzx a private message in which I wrote a 10 digit number which is 4883731902. Go ahead and see if the Holy Spirit bears witness to your spirit that my statement is true.

Man, I have to say that your superpower, once you prove you have it, is really amazing. And you mentioned that you got it by being baptized? That's even cooler than how Peter Parker got it by being bitten by a radioactive spider. Good for you!

Do you have a special costume? Wear a cape? Do you use your power to fight crime? Do you have a secret identity? Did your uncle ever tell you that with great power comes great responsibility? Is that why you never use your superpower to discern the winning lotto numbers? I bet that it is. Do you have a girlfriend? Is she ok with all the attention you and your sidekick the Holy Spirit get as crime-fighting superheroes, or is she chill?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

The decisions about what we believe often depend on who "said so". For example, When Paul converted to Christianity he knew it was the LORD who "said so". At that point Paul went from Christian persecutor to Christian.

Paul, while sick and delirious and suffering from dehydration, and while being cared for and prayed over by a Christian man, hallucinated a vision of Jesus and subsequently converted to Christianity. How do we know for a certainty that Paul's vision was a hallucination and not real? BECAUSE JESUS HAD BEEN EXECUTED SEVERAL YEARS EARLIER! Paul had a conversation with A DEAD MAN. According to Paul.

How, then can anyone know if a supernatural event happened?

We can know the truth by revelation from God via the Spirit of Truth.

How do you know "the lord" actually "said so"? As opposed to some guy completely making it up and writing "the lord said so" on a piece of paper?

That would take the process of discernment which is one of the Spiritual gifts given to baptized believers in Christ.

In other words, if first you decide that it is true, then it becomes believable. That's convenient. But only if God has given you a "special gift" like the one YahDough possesses and the rest of us are forced to do without. Because clearly YahDough is special in the eyes of the Lord. When it comes to His children the Lord is stingy with His gifts of perceiving "the truth" and only takes selected individuals into His confidence. Obviously God loves YahDough best. As I am sure YahDough would openly agree, if humility did not prevent it.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Now the ball is rolling.

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

The decisions about what we believe often depend on who "said so". For example, When Paul converted to Christianity he knew it was the LORD who "said so". At that point Paul went from Christian persecutor to Christian.

Paul, while sick and delirious and suffering from dehydration, and while being cared for and prayed over by a Christian man, hallucinated a vision of Jesus and subsequently converted to Christianity. How do we know for a certainty that Paul's vision was a hallucination and not real? BECAUSE JESUS HAD BEEN EXECUTED SEVERAL YEARS EARLIER! Paul had a conversation with A DEAD MAN. According to Paul.

Hi TOTN,
I can't say I support your version of Paul's experience meeting Christ but it is humorous to me. It seems you still can't understand how God could raise His dead Son. I have no trouble believing that.

How, then can anyone know if a supernatural event happened?

We can know the truth by revelation from God via the Spirit of Truth.

How do you know "the lord" actually "said so"? As opposed to some guy completely making it up and writing "the lord said so" on a piece of paper?

That would take the process of discernment which is one of the Spiritual gifts given to baptized believers in Christ.

In other words, if first you decide that it is true, then it becomes believable.

Discernment IS a decision process. At least you got that one right.

That's convenient. But only if God has given you a "special gift" like the one YahDough possesses and the rest of us are forced to do without. Because clearly YahDough is special in the eyes of the Lord. When it comes to His children the Lord is stingy with His gifts of perceiving "the truth" and only takes selected individuals into His confidence. Obviously God loves YahDough best. As I am sure YahDough would openly agree, if humility did not prevent it.

That's very funny. But nobody is "forced to do without". It's a personal choice.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

Hi TOTN,
I can't say I support your version of Paul's experience meeting Christ but it is humorous to me. It seems you still can't understand how God could raise His dead Son. I have no trouble believing that.

Hello Yahdough. Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. South Korean Christian religious leader Sun Myung Moon passed away in 2012. His faithful followers, known as Moonies, numbered in the hundreds at least and believed him to be Christ returned; literally the son of God reborn in the flesh. Suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that several weeks after Reverend Moon passed away his faithful began proclaiming that he had "risen from the dead." Many dozens of them reported that they had walked and talked and otherwise communed with the risen Moon. And after several days, according to them, he bodily rose up to heaven, disappearing into the clouds while they watched. Would you immediately accept this story as obviously valid and true? Because of course God would have no trouble "raising his son," if He chose to do so. Right? Or would you dismiss this claim out of hand as obvious foolishness?

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

Hi TOTN,
I can't say I support your version of Paul's experience meeting Christ but it is humorous to me. It seems you still can't understand how God could raise His dead Son. I have no trouble believing that.

Hello Yahdough. Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. South Korean Christian religious leader Sun Myung Moon passed away in 2012. His faithful followers, known as Moonies, numbered in the hundreds at least and believed him to be Christ returned; literally the son of God reborn in the flesh.

I interacted a little with the Moonies many years ago when Mr. Moon was in his prime. I can tell you that the group at that time was a Christian faction and gave credence to Christ Jesus as risen Lord. Moon's approach to the gospel was to teach what was called "Principle" to his converts. I'm not sure what he taught to get them to be converts, but as I think back it seems to me now that Moon's group grew very similar to the way the Jehovah Witnesses increase in membership, what I would call "target evangelism".

Suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that several weeks after Reverend Moon passed away his faithful began proclaiming that he had "risen from the dead." Many dozens of them reported that they had walked and talked and otherwise communed with the risen Moon. And after several days, according to them, he bodily rose up to heaven, disappearing into the clouds while they watched. Would you immediately accept this story as obviously valid and true?

"Immediately"? No way. But if I did not already belong to the true risen Lord Jesus, I might check out the story. "Many dozens" is a significant number. But at this point, even if this hypothetical event happened I would know it was a bogus conspiracy.

Because of course God would have no trouble "raising his son," if He chose to do so. Right?

Right. And I suspect Sun Myung Moon will be raised from the dead when Christ returns

Or would you dismiss this claim out of hand as obvious foolishness?

Too late. I already dismissed it. Is the ball still rolling?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 17 by YahDough]

Hello Yahdough. Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. South Korean Christian religious leader Sun Myung Moon passed away in 2012. His faithful followers, known as Moonies, numbered in the hundreds at least and believed him to be Christ returned; literally the son of God reborn in the flesh.

I interacted a little with the Moonies many years ago when Mr. Moon was in his prime. I can tell you that the group at that time was a Christian faction and gave credence to Christ Jesus as risen Lord. Moon's approach to the gospel was to teach what was called "Principle" to his converts. I'm not sure what he taught to get them to be converts, but as I think back it seems to me now that Moon's group grew very similar to the way the Jehovah Witnesses increase in membership, what I would call "target evangelism".

Suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that several weeks after Reverend Moon passed away his faithful began proclaiming that he had "risen from the dead." Many dozens of them reported that they had walked and talked and otherwise communed with the risen Moon. And after several days, according to them, he bodily rose up to heaven, disappearing into the clouds while they watched. Would you immediately accept this story as obviously valid and true?

"Immediately"? No way. But if I did not already belong to the true risen Lord Jesus, I might check out the story. "Many dozens" is a significant number. But at this point, even if this hypothetical event happened I would know it was a bogus conspiracy.

Do you notice any significance in the fact that something you had personal experience with, the Moonies, would cause you to hold their unrealistic claims to a higher level of skepticism, then the very same claims made thousands of years ago with which you had NO personal experience and for which you seem to hold NO level of skepticism whatsoever? As if ancient nonsense is somehow more believable than modern contemporary nonsense. You earlier stated, "It seems you still can't understand how God could raise His dead Son. I have no trouble believing that." And my answer to that is, because whether the nonsense is ancient or modern, nonsense is still nonsense.

[OnceConvinced]

Jesus was with his disciples in-person. Supposedly he performed all manner of astounding miracles right before their eyes. Not to mention that he was there LIVE to answer any and all questions they might have. Yet with all of that, this God still didn't think the disciples would be convinced so this God felt it was necessarily to also speak from a cloud confirming that Jesus was his son.

What?

God felt it necessarily to speak from a cloud and confirm that Jesus was his son because he didn't think that the disciples had sufficient reason to believe in Jesus without this supernatural confirmation. Yet we are to be DAMNED for merely not believing in absolutely absurd and outrageous unverifiable and truly stupid stories.

What a great point. The Disciples who... let's face it were a wishy washy bunch... got to rub shoulders with Jesus every day. They got to (supposedly) see first hand proof of the divinity of Jesus. They got everything from the mouth of "God" himself, but yet were still weak in faith and still needed a voice from the clouds (God sitting up there on a cloud I'm betting). Despite their extreme lack of faith they were given further evidence of Christ's divinity. However we non-believers are expected to believe without any evidence at all.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 17 by YahDough]

Hello Yahdough. Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. South Korean Christian religious leader Sun Myung Moon passed away in 2012. His faithful followers, known as Moonies, numbered in the hundreds at least and believed him to be Christ returned; literally the son of God reborn in the flesh.

I interacted a little with the Moonies many years ago when Mr. Moon was in his prime. I can tell you that the group at that time was a Christian faction and gave credence to Christ Jesus as risen Lord. Moon's approach to the gospel was to teach what was called "Principle" to his converts. I'm not sure what he taught to get them to be converts, but as I think back it seems to me now that Moon's group grew very similar to the way the Jehovah Witnesses increase in membership, what I would call "target evangelism".

Suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that several weeks after Reverend Moon passed away his faithful began proclaiming that he had "risen from the dead." Many dozens of them reported that they had walked and talked and otherwise communed with the risen Moon. And after several days, according to them, he bodily rose up to heaven, disappearing into the clouds while they watched. Would you immediately accept this story as obviously valid and true?

"Immediately"? No way. But if I did not already belong to the true risen Lord Jesus, I might check out the story. "Many dozens" is a significant number. But at this point, even if this hypothetical event happened I would know it was a bogus conspiracy.

Do you notice any significance in the fact that something you had personal experience with, the Moonies, would cause you to hold their unrealistic claims to a higher level of skepticism, then the very same claims made thousands of years ago with which you had NO personal experience and for which you seem to hold NO level of skepticism whatsoever?

Not really. I never thought their claims were "unrealistic". I had an interest in a girl who was a Moony so I checked out the group.

As if ancient nonsense is somehow more believable than modern contemporary nonsense. You earlier stated, "It seems you still can't understand how God could raise His dead Son. I have no trouble believing that." And my answer to that is, because whether the nonsense is ancient or modern, nonsense is still nonsense.

And truth is still truth, whether it is ancient or modern.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."