should homosexuals be executed?

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:58 am

The bible clearly states that homosexual acts are punishable by death.

Lev 20:13

If a man lie swith another man the way he lies with a woman , both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death ;they have brought this on their own heads

It appears to me anything short of the death penalty is meaningless to God. Why won't the "straight agenda" recognize this?

Question for debate should there be a death penalty for LGBT individuals?

dbohm · Post by **dbohm** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:08 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to dbohm]

If you lived now would you keep dodging questions?

As to your red herring. No I would not that is and was repugnant there is no context that makes it ok.

You may not have thought so if you were a Phoenician at the time. You're speaking from the viewpoint of someone who's been educated and raised in a Western country (my assumption) in 2014. I am too so I don't see it as acceptable to punish someone with death because they had homosexual sex.

I could ask you another question as to whether you'd be happy to partake in temple prostitution with boys or girls - your choice? That was a common practice in that age as well.

The point is that compared to the surrounding cultures, the Jewish practises were much more civilised and just - i.e. people were punished for what they did not because of who they were (enemies were to receive just treatment and men weren't killed just because they may have been sexually attracted to the same sex), proportionate justice, fair treatment of foreigners, you were to treat your neighbour as yourself, the poor and needy were to be looked after. Some of the punishments are extreme to us now. However it must be remembered that the Jews at the time faced an existential threat not just from menacing neighbours but from disintegration of their own culture by the surrounding culture. That surrounding culture included child sacrifice, temple prostitution and extreme sexual laxity. This eventually happened to the Northern Kingdom. Had that happened, the civilisation you take for granted would never have occurred.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:25 pm

[Replying to post 21 by dbohm]

Seeing as I am on my cell phone right now I can't respond to all of your points immediately suffice it to say I disagree with you entirely.(I will address them) Your response about phonecians is a red herring and irrelevant.

That being said, what other cultures do or did has no effect on whether or not executing homosexuals is moral.

Furthermore in your scenario who is dictating the law here god or man?

It's a simple question how is it ok to execute lgbt individuals? At any point in time.

Thomas Jefferson had slaves I find that immoral and just because he lived in a time where that was legal does not make it any less immoral.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:33 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote:
Thomas Jefferson had slaves I find that immoral and just because he lived in a time where that was legal does not make it any less immoral.

You mean that would not make it any less immoral to you. It must not have been immoral to Thomas Jefferson. It is interesting that the passage is interpreted that way on this thread. In every other threads it is strongly argued that it means not such thing.

Well, since that view appears to be a given on this thread, I will say that when a man lies with a man as with a women, in a Torah observant society, the death penalty would be appropriate. However, since I do not live in such a society at the present time, but am subject to the laws of these United States, there is no court that would even hear such a case, let alone have a trial.

Regarding the other premise of the thread, HaTorah does not recognize someone as "being" LGBT, but presents laws based on behavior or appearance. A person with a desire to eat pork is not violating Torah. It is a person who eats pork who is violating Torah. In the same way, one who has a desire to practice buggery is not violating Torah. It is the one who is practicing buggery that is doing so.

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:14 pm

bluethread wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote:

Regarding the other premise of the thread, HaTorah does not recognize someone as "being" LGBT, but presents laws based on behavior or appearance. A person with a desire to eat pork is not violating Torah. It is a person who eats pork who is violating Torah. In the same way, one who has a desire to practice buggery is not violating Torah. It is the one who is practicing buggery that is doing so.
My question would have to be ...WHY would a person who eats pork and practices buggery be violating the Torah ...especially when 'violations' of such commands might lead to a punishment of death ...?? Wouldn't it be nice for HaTorah to give actual reasons as to why 'violating this or that' will lead to the penalty of death? Also, would it be reasonable to conclude that, since such dire penalties no longer exist for violating these commands, the commands themselves are therefore no longer applicable?

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:35 pm

[Replying to bluethread]

I thought that frame of reference was implicit when I said"I fobd that immoral"

That being said I appreciate you being a stickler to details and recognize that male on male sex is to be punished by the death penalty according to the bible. Do you think we should enforce this today?

I use LGBT in the general sense of the term as it is vastly shorter than homosexual or bisexual and is not derogatory like gay or fag. Only LGBT people are targeted by this law.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:43 pm

KCKID wrote:
bluethread wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote:

Regarding the other premise of the thread, HaTorah does not recognize someone as "being" LGBT, but presents laws based on behavior or appearance. A person with a desire to eat pork is not violating Torah. It is a person who eats pork who is violating Torah. In the same way, one who has a desire to practice buggery is not violating Torah. It is the one who is practicing buggery that is doing so.
My question would have to be ...WHY would a person who eats pork and practices buggery be violating the Torah ...especially when 'violations' of such commands might lead to a punishment of death ...?? Wouldn't it be nice for HaTorah to give actual reasons as to why 'violating this or that' will lead to the penalty of death? Also, would it be reasonable to conclude that, since such dire penalties no longer exist for violating these commands, the commands themselves are therefore no longer applicable?
It has been said that there is no satisfactory answer to a why question. The only real answer to that question is, it seemed like good idea at the time. No matter what justification would have been given, that could be dismissed as unacceptable. For example, why is it wreckless driving to drive at 100 miles an hour anywhere in Washington State, while, in some places in Montana, it is only simple speeding? That is because one society has one standard and another society has another. The ultimate reason why, is that is how one identifies Adonai's people.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:00 pm

[Replying to post 26 by bluethread]

So the why is essentially to identify Adonai's people? So stoning men who have sex with eachother is a signifier o f Adonai's people? Is it just me or is that a bit excessive?

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:06 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to bluethread]

I thought that frame of reference was implicit when I said"I fobd that immoral"

That being said I appreciate you being a stickler to details and recognize that male on male sex is to be punished by the death penalty according to the bible. Do you think we should enforce this today?

I use LGBT in the general sense of the term as it is vastly shorter than homosexual or bisexual and is not derogatory like gay or fag. Only LGBT people are targeted by this law.

I wasn't talking about the fact that it is an acronym. There is no Torah law against any sexual preference, there are only laws against certain sexual behaviors. Do I think HaTorah should be enforced today? You may as well ask whether there should be Torah observant societies. If that is what you are asking I would say yes. However, it is not up to me to determine which social structures exist. I can not get rid of the societies of either the mission district of San Francisco or ISIS. There are behaviors in both that I find deplorable, but there is little if anything I can do about them. So, your question regarding my preferences is academic at best.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:15 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 26 by bluethread]

So the why is essentially to identify Adonai's people? So stoning men who have sex with eachother is a signifier o f Adonai's people? Is it just me or is that a bit excessive?

The why of anything is essentially that it is indicative of the society that permits it or prohibits it. It is not the only identifier, nor is it the primary identifier. It is just one of many. Regarding whether it is just you or not, as I pointed out with the speeding example, popularity is not a universal justification. Just so we can identify what you consider excessive, is there anything to which you think the death penalty should apply?

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:01 pm

[Replying to post 29 by bluethread]

Well I certainly appreciate your honesty even if we don't agree. I am just very thankful we don't live in a Torah observant society. The thought of enforcing laws like that to me would be a tragedy. DaVinci Walt Whitman Alan Turing(he broke the enigma code in WWII ) just to name a few would be lost to laws like these.

Edit:

After reading more about Alan turing Homosexual acts were still illegal in Britain they chemically castrated him shortly thereafter he was found dead from cyanide poisoning it was a suicide... A tragic end to the man Churchill claimed made the single biggest contribution to end WWII and one of the fathers of computer science.