should homosexuals be executed?

[DanieltheDragon]

The bible clearly states that homosexual acts are punishable by death.

Lev 20:13

If a man lie swith another man the way he lies with a woman , both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death ;they have brought this on their own heads

It appears to me anything short of the death penalty is meaningless to God. Why won't the "straight agenda" recognize this?

Question for debate should there be a death penalty for LGBT individuals?

[dbohm]

[Replying to post 29 by bluethread]

Well I certainly appreciate your honesty even if we don't agree. I am just very thankful we don't live in a Torah observant society. The thought of enforcing laws like that to me would be a tragedy. DaVinci Walt Whitman Alan Turing(he broke the enigma code in WWII ) just to name a few would be lost to laws like these.

There is no conclusive evidence to say that Leonardo Da Vinci was homosexual - there's no question of Whitman or Turing.

That aside, I think it is obvious that this debate is based around what is recognised as just and appropriate punishment. Marital infidelity and children who hit their parents also were punished with death under the Mosaic code. Just and appropriate punishment can vary over time according to many circumstances. For instance, even today there is an argument for the death penalty for violent murder where life imprisonment is impossible or impractical.

Christians today hold to the Ten Commandments. Homosexual acts break the sixth commandment. They are therefore immoral according to Christians. I can't comment on Bluethread's position, but from the Catholic perspective, the Church has no authority to wield the sword. That is left to state authority. Christianity is not a political movement. Jesus' followers were not looking at overturning governments.
Instead the sin is condemned. Since it is considered a mortal sin those who have sinned and not repented and not received absolution are bound not to receive Holy Communion. Unrepentant public advocates of the sin could be at risk of excommunication. The Church upholds the Ten Commandments but follows the way of Jesus in John 8 with the woman caught in adultery where He says "Go and sin no more." As Pope John Paul II said "the Church is always proposing, never imposing."

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 29 by bluethread]

Well I certainly appreciate your honesty even if we don't agree. I am just very thankful we don't live in a Torah observant society. The thought of enforcing laws like that to me would be a tragedy. DaVinci Walt Whitman Alan Turing(he broke the enigma code in WWII ) just to name a few would be lost to laws like these.

Edit:

After reading more about Alan turing Homosexual acts were still illegal in Britain they chemically castrated him shortly thereafter he was found dead from cyanide poisoning it was a suicide... A tragic end to the man Churchill claimed made the single biggest contribution to end WWII and one of the fathers of computer science.

Are you arguing that positive coincidental results justify bad behavior? One can speculate on how things would have worked out, but one can not actually establish what would have happened. One could just as well argue that it is a good thing that the holocaust occurred, because it resulted in the atom bomb that lead to nuclear power.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 32 by bluethread]

But all of these men in your opinion should have been executed in your hypothetical torah obseevant society?

In the case of Turing its not hypothetical he was arrested condemned publicly humiliated and castrated once he was discovered. I am not arguing that if this happened then x wouldn't have happened. They got what they wanted from Turing then spat on his face and mutilated his body, isn't that a bit excessive given what he provided to his country?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 32 by bluethread]

But all of these men in your opinion should have been executed in your hypothetical torah obseevant society?

In the case of Turing its not hypothetical he was arrested condemned publicly humiliated and castrated once he was discovered. I am not arguing that if this happened then x wouldn't have happened. They got what they wanted from Turing then spat on his face and mutilated his body, isn't that a bit excessive given what he provided to his country?

I don't know who "they" were, but I am not going to defend the actions of "they". That said, there are many people with great minds who have been arrested, tortured and executed for various behaviors and beliefs.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to bluethread]



How dies it break the adultery commandment? Adultery is the act of sleeping with a married woman.

Na'aph -adultery

The most direct translation I believe is committing a sexual act with a married woman. It is often with regards to a man committing the act not necessarily the woman although she is a participant but it does not address wgether she is willing or not. Simply Na'aph means:

"Adultery usually of a man, always with the wife of another"

Personally bluethread has the more biblically and culturally accurate description.

Regardless of your political position the question is not should you advocate this but, according to the bible should they be executed?

A follow up would you support this if a government decided to do so?

If no why not?


@Bluethread they reffers to the British government. It is all very well documented.

So do you agree that we should be executing people who perform homosexual acts even at the expense of lost potential?

Turing essentially saved the Jews from complete genocide, Churchill among others recognized that his efforts ended the war at a minimum 2 years earlier than could be expected. At this point the holocaust was in full swing as the allies encroached so as to cover up their crimes give them 2 more years whose to say anyone would have been saved. There was not a mathematics alive that could have done what he did at the time.

Really he should be hailed as a hero and not shamed for his sexual preference.

[Wootah]

Of course the fundamentalists are avoiding this thread. They know it's a catch-22 for them -- either seem like a cruel barbarian by supporting the execution of LGBT people, or seem soft on scriptural literalism by denying the relevance of those passages. They're had either way.

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[dbohm]

[Replying to bluethread]



How dies it break the adultery commandment? Adultery is the act of sleeping with a married woman.

Na'aph -adultery

The most direct translation I believe is committing a sexual act with a married woman. It is often with regards to a man committing the act not necessarily the woman although she is a participant but it does not address wgether she is willing or not. Simply Na'aph means:

"Adultery usually of a man, always with the wife of another"

Personally bluethread has the more biblically and culturally accurate description.

Christian tradition understands that the sixth commandment encompasses the whole of human sexuality not just sex with another man's wife.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt ... t_adultery
http://www.credoindeum.org/ph35
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c2a6.htm

Regardless of your political position the question is not should you advocate this but, according to the bible should they be executed?

No credible exegete would argue that all commands in the Bible apply to all peoples at all times. So the simple answer is that according to the Bible Jews living at that time under the Mosaic law were to punish homosexual acts with death. Today we are not. Gentile Christians were never obligated to follow Mosaic law see Acts 21:17-18 and Galatians. Further since the destruction of the Temple in 70AD it is impossible for Jews to follow it by the letter.

A follow up would you support this if a government decided to do so?

If no why not?

No I would not support it firstly because if it is between two consenting adults it is not a violent crime and secondly because capital punishment is not a just form of punishment in developed countries and the vast majority of the developing world.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to dbohm]

This is just one of those things the Catholic church just makes up. We are sort of witnessing a change of church doctrine and tradition before our very eyes with the new Pope. It's a bit of a double edged sword really, Catholics enjoy the fluidity to adapt its doctrine to an ever changing moral landscape however the cost is by doing this the church strays from the text.

Here is a challenge using the biblical text alone and not tradition see if your assertion is accurate and defensible.

If we both agree that executing homosexuals is bad in our society. What conditions would make it permissible if not mandatory?

[dbohm]

[Replying to dbohm]

This is just one of those things the Catholic church just makes up. We are sort of witnessing a change of church doctrine and tradition before our very eyes with the new Pope. It's a bit of a double edged sword really, Catholics enjoy the fluidity to adapt its doctrine to an ever changing moral landscape however

If you actually read the final report on the recent Synod on marriage and not get cues from the mass media you would realise that no change in doctrine has occurred or will occur. Despite what some Protestants or atheists with Protestant viewpoints say, Catholic doctrine does not change over time.

[bluethread]

@Bluethread they reffers to the British government. It is all very well documented.

Well, I am not going to defend the British government.

So do you agree that we should be executing people who perform homosexual acts even at the expense of lost potential?

Turing essentially saved the Jews from complete genocide, Churchill among others recognized that his efforts ended the war at a minimum 2 years earlier than could be expected. At this point the holocaust was in full swing as the allies encroached so as to cover up their crimes give them 2 more years whose to say anyone would have been saved. There was not a mathematics alive that could have done what he did at the time.

Really he should be hailed as a hero and not shamed for his sexual preference.

Well, you are making an argument based on the inevitability of the holocaust. If Adonai's people would have been living Torah observant lives, there may not have been a holocaust at all, but my point is this is all speculation. In hindsight, I do not see why we can not do both. Most of the great men of the Tanakh had feet of clay. I will give him credit for his accomplishments, but will not overlook his shortcomings. It is my view that Edwards Snowden should be lauded for exposing problems in government agencies. However, I also think that he should be shot as a traitor, because of how he did it.