Who Represents Christianty?

[Divine Insight]

Isn't the Church of Christianity supposed to represent Jesus?

Didn't Jesus hang around with sinners proclaiming that sinners are the ones who need salvation the most?

If so, then shouldn't "Christian Churches" embrace sinners and invite them openly into their congregations?

Question for debate: Why do so many Christian Churches renounce sinners and refuse to allow them to be part of their Church of Christ?

Shouldn't they be welcoming sinners above all others as Jesus did?

[1213]

The problem is that if you condone Jesus having suffered anything on your behalf then that's the same as asking him to do it.

I think Jesus didnt suffer on behalf of people, but for people.

Why? Because God is supposedly omniscient. If no one would accept penal substitution then there would be no reason for God to have ever sent Jesus in the first place.

I think Bible doesnt say that Jesus was sent to suffer our penalty instead of us. Bible tells that Jesus was sent because:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

And Biblical reason for the death of Jesus was:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

Only reason why Jesus had to die on cross was that it was predicted that people do so to him.

Christianity is for sinners.

Christians meant originally in Bible disciples of Jesus. Person doesnt have to be sinner to become disciple of Jesus.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 51 by 1213]

It seems to me that a lot of so-called "Christians" seem to be in denial of their very own religion. Christianity does not allow for any man to not be a sinner. Jesus is supposedly the only "man" who ever lived a perfectly sinless life. And ironically Jesus wasn't even supposed to be a "man" he was supposed to be "God".

100% man and 100% God which itself is an extreme oxymoron.

And no man could be "saved" from the wrath of God without Jesus supposedly.

It seems to me that any Christian who denies that Jesus died to pay for their sins simply rejects the whole shebang.

In fact, I'm arguing with a Christian in another thread right now where it is being claimed that the "Wages of Sin is Death" and Jesus paid those wages for us precisely because we are sinners.

You had posted earlier a verse where Jesus said he came for the sinners and not for the righteous indicating that even Jesus agrees that there actually exist righteous people.

There are other verses and parables he told as well where he claimed that in heaven great joy is rejoiced over the one sinner who had repented more so than the 99 righteous people who made it into heaven without any need to repent.

So according to Jesus the vast majority of people are obviously righteous and therefore do not need his spiritual services for sinners.

But the problem with all of that is that this mean that 99% of the people don't even need to believe in Jesus Christianity at all. Why would they need a spiritual witchdoctor or sacrificial lamb if they are righteous and have earned their own way into heaven as Jesus seems to think that most people do.

[OnceConvinced]

. The problem is that people dont want to understand.

Why do you believe this? Is it because they disagree with you?

Person, who understands, can disagree with me, but if he understands, he disagrees with reasonable reasons and makes arguments that show he has understood.

It is possible to understand something and still reject it.

Yes. And if so, the person shows that he has understood by making arguments that show he has understood.

Maybe they are reasonable rational reasons and you are just misunderstanding them? Or worse refuse to see that they are reasonable. Or maybe it's just that you have certain mindsets that stop you from seeing them as reasonable?

[Zzyzx]

.

Who Represents Christianty?

Jesus.

A strong case can be made that Paul/Saul represents what became known as Christianity. Jesus was said to have been a Jew who sought reform of Judaism rather than creation of a competing religion.

[Zzyzx]

.

I dont think you really understand what those scriptures actually mean, when you have these contradiction problems. So how can you say that someone is in denial, if he dont see same way as you?

How can you say that someone doesn't "really understand" if they don't see things the same way as you?

Firstly, the Law of Moses was given to Jews. If you want to know are you allowed to stone people according to the rules that were given to the judges, you should first answer are you a Jew. If not, then I dont know how you could have their judges rights.

Do any (or none) of the rights and responsibilities of the Torah apply to Christians?

Do some apply but not others? If so, how can determination be made which is which -- without simply resorting to opinion?

In generally I would say that God wants us to do same to others that we want to be done to us.

If someone is a masochist (one who desires or enjoys physical pain) should they do to others as they want done to them?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 54:

Who represents Christianity?

Jesus.

A strong case can be made that Paul/Saul represents what became known as Christianity.

Heck, I've had neighbors that thought they did.

Christianity is about the Christ, not the guys whose names rhyme. Others seem to attach a certain seriousness to it though, ya can't just open a jug and set to fiddlin' on their front porch.

While, in your greater context than just definitionally, then we get all the hyphenations. See the research of Emo Phillips.

Jesus was said to have been a Jew who sought reform of Judaism rather than creation of a competing religion.

So Jesus is so high falootin'? Doesn't seem to enrich my life in any measurable way. I still get hungry, when I could be swimming. I'm neither Jew, nor religious. It's all, to me, a curious turn of the psyche. I can't comprehend a mind that accepts as real all that which goes against what I know about the world around me.

[1213]

It seems to me that a lot of so-called "Christians" seem to be in denial of their very own religion. Christianity does not allow for any man to not be a sinner. Jesus is supposedly the only "man" who ever lived a perfectly sinless life. And ironically Jesus wasn't even supposed to be a "man" he was supposed to be "God".

If Christian is not same as disciple of Jesus in the Bible, then I am not Christian. For me Jesus is the King and he is the authority, not people who make non Biblical doctrines.

But this is not so simple thing, because sin has two meanings. It is a mistake and it can also mean unrighteous, godless person, person who rejects God.

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

Probably every man has made mistakes. Difference is that righteous person regrets it when he knows it and wants to be better. Sinful person doesnt regret and in many cases dont even agree that he has done wrong thing.

100% man and 100% God which itself is an extreme oxymoron.

I think Bible is not claiming that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. It says that Jesus was a man and God dwells in him. That is why it would be more Biblical to say, Jesus was 100 % man that was 100% filled with God. If we compare it to bucket, bucket is 100 % bucket, even if it is 100 % full of water.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14

In fact, I'm arguing with a Christian in another thread right now where it is being claimed that the "Wages of Sin is Death" and Jesus paid those wages for us precisely because we are sinners.

Paid the wage can be understood many ways. Certain thing is that according to the Bible Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death. Therefore I think his death was not needed for forgiveness. For me the Bible is the authority in these matters, not people that call themselves as Christian. However, because Jesus died and suffered because he came to declare forgiveness, it can be seen that he paid the wage.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

So according to Jesus the vast majority of people are obviously righteous and therefore do not need his spiritual services for sinners.

Actually Bible seems to say that vast majority is not righteous.

For many are called, but few chosen."
Matt. 22:14

How [TR reads "Because" instead of "How"] narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'
Matt. 7:14-22

But the problem with all of that is that this mean that 99% of the people don't even need to believe in Jesus Christianity at all. Why would they need a spiritual witchdoctor or sacrificial lamb if they are righteous and have earned their own way into heaven as Jesus seems to think that most people do.

I dont think anyone has earned eternal life. There is nothing that could be done to earn eternal life. Good things should be done, because person understands it is good and good should be default. Eternal life is a gift for righteous people.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[1213]

Maybe they are reasonable rational reasons and you are just misunderstanding them?

That could be true and that is why I try always try to check are my thoughts correct. Till this day I have not seen good reasons to change my mind.

[1213]

How can you say that someone doesn't "really understand" if they don't see things the same way as you?

If argument doesnt answer to question, it seems to me that the question is misunderstood.

Do any (or none) of the rights and responsibilities of the Torah apply to Christians?

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

In my opinion Law tells what is wrong and what is right. I dont want to do anything that is wrong according to it, but I think it is not condition for eternal life. According to Jesus, person may get eternal life, even if he has not done everything according to the smallest letter. But, if person loves God, he wants to do his will.

If someone is a masochist (one who desires or enjoys physical pain) should they do to others as they want done to them?

No one wants anything to be done to him against his will. Therefore nothing should be done to other against that persons will, usually.

[Zzyzx]

.

Probably every man has made mistakes.

Every PERSON has made mistakes " to include females (though it might be inappropriate to apply that concept to newborn / infants " and unborn if they are considered people)

Who decides what constitutes "mistakes" by people other than themselves?

Difference is that righteous person regrets it when he knows it and wants to be better.

Thus, righteousness is independent of religion or God, right?

Sinful person doesnt regret and in many cases dont even agree that he has done wrong thing.

Since "sin" is a religious concept it applies to religious people " not to others -- no matter how hard religionists try to inflict their beliefs on others.

Actually Bible seems to say that vast majority is not righteous.

So say bible tales. Evidently the supposed "creator" was not capable of creating righteous humans.

I dont think anyone has earned eternal life.

I agree, but for a reason that differs from ;that proclaimed by religionists. They seem convinced that such a thing as "eternal life" exists beyond imagination. I do not share that idea but consider it wishful thinking.

There is nothing that could be done to earn eternal life. Good things should be done, because person understands it is good and good should be default. Eternal life is a gift for righteous people.

Even if the proposed "eternal life" was awarded to humans in return for being "righteous", it cannot be properly identified as a gift " but is payment for being "righteous." A gift is defined as: something voluntarily transferred without compensation. If one earns a reward for being "good" or "righteous" that is NOT a gift " regardless what religionists and their literature proclaim.

If someone says, "I will give you this but only if you behave as I require" that is NOT a gift.

Reward for achievement COULD be a gift (such as a present upon graduation) PROVIDED that there was no announcement earlier " such as "If you graduate from college I will give you a car." Under those conditions the recipient is promised a reward for performance " an inducement -- and the recipient has EARNED the reward (not gift) by certain performance.

Since Christendom announces that the "graduation gift" (or "eternal life") is anything more than imaginary " a hollow promise. It is dishonest to promise a reward for performance unless you KNOW it can be delivered. Christians may THINK they can safely promise "eternal life" but they cannot SHOW that it is true.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

If "eternal life" is earned by "righteousness" it is: 1) not a gift but a payment for performance, and 2) not restricted to those who worship God or gods.