Jesus Was Not A Human Sacrifice

[myth-one.com]

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The spiritual bodied Word was made a natural bodied man and dwelt among men as Jesus Christ:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

But the Bible describes two deaths which may befall mankind. The first is that which terminates our short natural life on the earth. This death will befall all mankind:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But all "dead" humans will be resurrected to life from this death:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If all those who have suffered their first death will live again, then they were not truly dead by definition – as it was not permanent. Thus, the Bible describes this first death as sleep, slumber, or rest.

Once Jesus agreed to be made flesh, He could not escape this first death, and neither can any of us. So the first death cannot be the wages for our sins -- as it is appointed unto all mankind, including believers. The crucifixion of Jesus' was His first physical death. And it did not save any other man from their first death.

The true wages for our sins is called the "second death" in the Bible. Our second possible physical death is described in the book of Revelation:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This death is the wages for our sins. Only believers names are written in the book of life. So all nonbelievers are cast into the lake of fire where they pay the wages for their sins – death. This death is everlasting punishment – they will never live again.

The only possible escape from the second death is to be born again as a spiritual being – as only spiritual beings live forever. The only way to be born again into the spiritual world was to never sin, and Jesus is the only human who has ever accomplished this feat.

Thus Jesus is the only human ever to be deserving of being born again into the Kingdom of God as an everlasting spiritual being.

And this is what Jesus sacrificed to save mankind – He gave up His deserved reward of everlasting life as a gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior! No human sacrifice was involved.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus was resurrected from the tomb and carried to Heaven. But He could not enter Heaven -- as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Before entering Heaven, His physical body was discarded or destroyed (His second death), and will never live again. It was created for the purpose of living a sinless life and dying a second death. He freely offered His unaccepted reward of everlasting life for remaining sinless to all mankind in His name. With His mission now accomplished, there is no longer any reason for Jesus to ever exist again as a man.

He is at His Father's side in Heaven today as the Word from which He was made flesh. How that was accomplished is incomprehensible to beings in the natural world.

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Conclusion: Jesus was not a human sacrifice. He saves mankind by offering them the everlasting life He deserved by living a sinless human life.

Can anyone reach a different conclusion from the Bible?

[myth-one.com]

Was it Jesus' death that saved us, or was it the fact that He lived a sinless life?

John 3:16 seems to suggest it was his death.

Also Romans 5

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

(so we see here that through his death we no longer have to suffer his wrath)

Oh oh, it seems we're doing the whole bible card game thing after all. sigh.

And which death of Jesus do these verses refer to?

His death on the cross of course. The HUMAN SACRIFICE made to God. There is no talk here about any other death. Just the one on the cross.

OK, so you're saying that His crucifixion on the cross is what saves believers.

So you're claiming that the wages of sin is simply dying a physical death.

So every human ever born will pay the wages for their sins when they die.

But every human who ever died will be made alive again.

So if we can design some easy type of death, then paying for our sins will be a snap. We'll die, then awaken to new human life in three days as sinless creatures -- ready for another sinful life.

Then another, and another, and another, etc.
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[Divine Insight]

Also, for what purpose should Jesus now be alive as a man?

Who said anything about Jesus as being alive as a man? Jesus is part of the Christian Trinity. He is SPIRIT. And according to you spirit cannot die. Therefore Jesus could not have had a "second death" as you claim.

He already died twice, why torture Him more?

Where do you get off saying that Jesus died twice?

When did he die a second time?

Also, if Jesus is dead and Jesus was not "The Word" (whatever nonsense that is supposed to be), then you seem to be claiming that there were basically two entirely separate "egos" or entities inside of the body of Jesus.

One was the ego that you claim was Jesus and supposedly died.

The other was some imagined magical ego that you claim belong to some mysterious spiritual entity called "The Word". You act like "The Word" lived on whilst Jesus died. And you also act like these were two entirely different entities.

If they were different entities, then according to you, Jesus was NOT "The Word made flesh", because according to you "The Word" was something entirely different and separate from Jesus anyway.

This whole religion is so utterly absurd that I can't believe anyone bothers with it much less tries argue that it can make some sort of sense.

The bottom line for YOUR proposed interpretations is that according to you Jesus not only died once, but TWICE! And you also claim that he was indeed a human man.

Therefore your scenario demands that Jesus was indeed a Human Sacrifice.

You are demanding that Jesus is dead. Not only dead, but doubly dead.

Also, where in the Bible does it say that Jesus died a "second death"?

My bible says that after the resurrection from his first death Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of God. Presumably for the rest of eternity.

That doesn't sounds like a second death to me.

Your claim that Jesus died a second death isn't biblical.

[myth-one.com]

Who said anything about Jesus as being alive as a man? Jesus is part of the Christian Trinity. He is SPIRIT.

There are two type of bodies defined in the Bible:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

The natural body comes first for mankind and the spiritual body comes last. They do not mix:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

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Speaking of human believers who shall inherit everlasting life Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

If human believers gain immortality, then natural human beings were not born with immortality. So humans are created mortal.

And if angels can't die anymore, they are immortal.

So the God family and angels are immortal spiritual bodied beings, and all other forms of life are natural physical flesh and blood bodies.

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The Bible's description of man is as follows:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

The Bible's description of Jesus is as follows:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Both were made a little lower than the angels.

The Word created every thing ever created:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The Word is an immortal spiritual being.

But the Word was "made" mortal flesh as Jesus Christ:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

So Jesus Christ was definitely a man -- being flesh.

But where is the Word during this time? He still exists as He is immortal.

And what is the relationship between Jesus and the Word?

It may be akin to the present relationship between Christians and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit or Comforter was not sent to Christians until Jesus departed the earth. Jesus spoke the following to the apostles shortly after his resurrection:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

Christians call upon the Holy Spirit to aid and comfort them. Jesus filled this purpose while He was on the earth, and the Holy Spirit now fills that function.

Spirits are not bound or subject to the material world. When the Word was made flesh, the Word could have fulfilled this comforting function for Jesus.

So just as Christians can be filled with the Holy Spirit, perhaps Jesus could be filled with the Word.

And according to you spirit cannot die. Therefore Jesus could not have had a "second death" as you claim.

Jesus was a man and was crucified and buried, and resurrected as a man three days later.

He was then carried up to Heaven. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

With His mission fulfilled, the man Jesus no longer needed to exist.

Also, if Jesus is dead and Jesus was not "The Word" (whatever nonsense that is supposed to be), then you seem to be claiming that there were basically two entirely separate "egos" or entities inside of the body of Jesus.

One was the ego that you claim was Jesus and supposedly died.

The other was some imagined magical ego that you claim belong to some mysterious spiritual entity called "The Word". You act like "The Word" lived on whilst Jesus died. And you also act like these were two entirely different entities.

Yes, they both existed at the same time. Jesus paid the wages for mankind's sin -- the second death. And He gave His reward of everlasting life to those who accept Him as their Savior.

The Word lives on eternally. Call Him Jesus if you like.

Your claim that Jesus died a second death isn't biblical.

He departed the earth as a man heading for a destination which He couldn't enter as a man.

Something had to change.

[higgy1911]

Even if all this first and second death business can be reconciled via scripture there are still some issues. Primarily the notion that the death or punishment if an innocent can have any bearing on the judgement of the guilty. At most it could only add more guilt, not relieve it. Punishing an innocent is immoral. Allowing someone else to take your punishment is perhaps the highest moral cowardice imaginable. Righteousness would involve being responsible for that which we are guilty of. There is no true redemption that can come from anyone else suffering for our sins. To be a party to such a deal would just be another sin to add to the list.

[higgy1911]

Even if all this first and second death business can be reconciled via scripture there are still some issues. Primarily the notion that the death or punishment if an innocent can have any bearing on the judgement of the guilty. At most it could only add more guilt, not relieve it. Punishing an innocent is immoral. Allowing someone else to take your punishment is perhaps the highest moral cowardice imaginable. Righteousness would involve being responsible for that which we are guilty of. There is no true redemption that can come from anyone else suffering for our sins. To be a party to such a deal would just be another sin to add to the list.

[myth-one.com]

Even if all this first and second death business can be reconciled via scripture there are still some issues. Primarily the notion that the death or punishment if an innocent can have any bearing on the judgement of the guilty. At most it could only add more guilt, not relieve it. Punishing an innocent is immoral. Allowing someone else to take your punishment is perhaps the highest moral cowardice imaginable. Righteousness would involve being responsible for that which we are guilty of. There is no true redemption that can come from anyone else suffering for our sins. To be a party to such a deal would just be another sin to add to the list.

Whatever, here's how the scripture reconciles it:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Divine Insight]

The Word is an immortal spiritual being.

But the Word was "made" mortal flesh as Jesus Christ:

So what? That wouldn't help.

Was there an innocent living entity that died to pay for the sins of men or not?

Sticking multiple souls or spirits inside of a single body named Jesus doesn't help.

And besides, as Higgy points out the whole thing is immoral in principle no matter what it was that died.

What kind of a God isn't happy until someone has been brutally beaten and nailed to a pole anyway?

Such a God would be a hideous psychopathic sadist.

There's no hope for Christianity. You're not going to save it by giving Jesus a multiple personality disorder.

[myth-one.com]

The Word is an immortal spiritual being.

But the Word was "made" mortal flesh as Jesus Christ:

So what? That wouldn't help.

Was there an innocent living entity that died to pay for the sins of men or not?

Sticking multiple souls or spirits inside of a single body named Jesus doesn't help.

And besides, as Higgy points out the whole thing is immoral in principle no matter what it was that died.

What kind of a God isn't happy until someone has been brutally beaten and nailed to a pole anyway?

Such a God would be a hideous psychopathic sadist.

There's no hope for Christianity. You're not going to save it by giving Jesus a multiple personality disorder.

Jesus wasn't a Spirit, He was a man as I've proved many times before.

Jesus Himself states that He was not a spirit:

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[Cewakiyelo]

Was it Jesus' death that saved us, or was it the fact that He lived a sinless life?

Neither his death nor his sinless life saved us. Both saved him. Your question places Jesus as the one by which salvation is acquired. Yet that is not what scripture shows.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.� .... 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.�

Jesus says that "Living Water springs into everlasting life" aka salvation. Lets see what the living water is.

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.� 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The living water that is responsible for our salvation comes via the Holy Spirit that is the Living Water. Jesus's death and sinless life saved him and allowed for others to also receive the Holy Spirit in order to be led to salvation as Jesus had been led.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

The new covenant was that man would be able to receive and be taught by the Word of God, the Christ, the Holy Spirit directly and would not need others to teach them God's Word. God's Word would be written into their hearts. This covenant was made with man because a man, Jesus, showed God that man could be worthy of receiving the Word of God, could follow obediently. Jesus showed God that he could and that others could also. His sacrifice does not give us everlasting life it opened the door to receive the One that can offer everlasting life.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 12 by myth-one.com]

Technically it was his resurrection that saves us. The life and death of Jesus mean nothing otherwise.