Scientific Justification for Free Will?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any scientific justification for the notion of Free Will?

Question #1. If you believe their is, can you please state your scientific evidence for the existence of Free Will.

Question #2. If you believe there is no scientific justification for the notion of Free Will, then please explain how we can have any scientific justification for holding anyone responsible for their actions. In fact, wouldn't the very notion of personal responsibility be scientifically unsupportable?

[stcordova]

Science makes possible free will for the simple fact that if physics is described by mathematics, there are some mathematical propositions that are a matter of free will and unpredictable. This relates to Godel's incompleteness theorem. There is lots of computer like determinism in the universe, but there are pockets of indeterminism and unpredictability. This makes possible free will, however it doesn't mandate free will exists. I suppose that is accepted as a matter of faith.

[ThePainefulTruth]

Greed used against me by 95% of the worlds population?
Can you ate least point out why you think that 'arian', a debater on Debating Christianity & Religion would be considered 'greedy' by 95% of the people?

Not just him and you and me, all Americans. Just look at what the least of us have except for those who drop willingly off the grid. We all have so much more than so many of the world's population--and that's all that's necessary for the poor here to call those that have more than they do, greedy.

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

If it was a sin, then I expect It to tell me so to my face, not through some 3000 year old self-appointed prophet, or one of a more recent vintage.

You would never survive the personal encounter.

Why not, others claim to have? But I'm certain that God wouldn't do it due to It's Prime Directive which maintains our free will.

I'm sure He is letting you know, and if you had an ear to hear, you would have heard Him by now.

If such communication is so delicate, how do you know it isn't you talking to yourself, wanting to believe with such fervor.

When I left Christianity, it was a rejection of all revealed religions.

Why is that, are you doing what the WBC The Phelps are doing?

I don't know what that is, but any divine revelation would undermine our free will--again, the reason the cosmos was created.

You start with "If God exists, .." can you at least give us a hint as to how you imagine this non-human quality "it" so we Believers could understand a little more about your god version "it"? Have you seen or read of a god-like machine, or rock, or a wood statue 'create' any biological beings? I just want to know where you get the "it" from?

God, if It exists, is Truth which is everything that is. And we are in God's image because we are self-aware, the necessary quality to possess free will.

As I just said Truth is God, wherever that leads, whether It is a super spirit being or a nothing at all. And Truth demands that I remember that I don't know. I have learned to live without knowing. For me, the only reason I believe in God is hope. And if It does exist, It created the universe for one reason only--as a natural, rational stage where we can exercise our free will using reason, and make our moral choices on our own. Then, on our deathbed we know who we really are, if we can avoid lying to ourselves...again.

You asked.

There is no 'truth' in "nothing at all", .. because "nothing at all" is 'nothing at all'.

Of course there is, the universe exists whether the Truth of it is conscious or not.

When I left Christianity, I went straight to deism where I've been ever since. I could easily have converted my sense of betrayal by ALL revealed religions into becoming an angry atheist. If I ever feel like abandoning all hope and surrendering my God given free will, then I might come back, or I could just as easily become a Satanist. The reasoning, or rather the lack of it, is the same--blind faith. Somebody says "Believe!", and I'd say "How low!"

gods created by religious doctrines are not 'God', actually more like demons or Satan himself. Pope Francis has announced this, so the cat is out of the bag.

So, the Pope speaks for God? Sorry, that's been done to death.

Also, the rest of the Christian dominations are returning to "mother of all religions", the Catholic Church and her Deity Lucifer and awaiting the coming of his son Jesus Christ (anti-Christ according to the Bible)

Well that was a neck-snapping U turn. So which denomination of which religion is the correct one?

The reason I am telling you this is so you would not just go back to that 'blind-faith', instead a faith with substance built on evidence. It is what is required for true faith.

Blind-faith is required by the religions, all religions.

By all revealed religions, or any cosmological philosophy which declares that it is without a doubt the correct one. My deism is a philosophy whcih assumes that if there is a God, It best fits the evidence. But the minute a deist or an atheist claims their model to be certain, they become based on blind faith as well.

[FarWanderer]

Free will is not something to be "justified". It is simply how the subject relates to the world. Conversely, determinism is how the object relates to the world.

Whether you have free will or not depends on whether you are considering your "self" as an object or subject.

Science, for it's part, views all things as objects rather than subjects, so the idea of "scientifically justified free-will" is impossible in principle.

So free will exists, such as it is, but it is not the business of science to prove or disprove.

[arian]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

You just explained your spirit/mind exercising 'free will'. (The soul is the mind/spirit and body together, that makes us 'living souls'.)

You put it so well; "Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will."

My mind goes: "I got to get out there and pull them weeds before I get written up by the HOA. Then it actually imagines the body going out there and doing it .. then my body/brain says no, .. tomorrow!

[arian]

Greed used against me by 95% of the worlds population?
Can you ate least point out why you think that 'arian', a debater on Debating Christianity & Religion would be considered 'greedy' by 95% of the people?

Not just him and you and me, all Americans. Just look at what the least of us have except for those who drop willingly off the grid. We all have so much more than so many of the world's population--and that's all that's necessary for the poor here to call those that have more than they do, greedy.

Actually that 'poor' you describe is the greedy one. Envious and greedy. I don't see the poor that way, only the rich. The rich envy even the few dollars the poor has and will devise a way to take it from him.

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

If it was a sin, then I expect It to tell me so to my face, not through some 3000 year old self-appointed prophet, or one of a more recent vintage.

You would never survive the personal encounter.

Why not, others claim to have? But I'm certain that God wouldn't do it due to It's Prime Directive which maintains our free will.

His prime directive? God created us in His image, our mind is of God and is God only in a body. Our mind has free will just as God has.

I'm sure He is letting you know, and if you had an ear to hear, you would have heard Him by now.

If such communication is so delicate, how do you know it isn't you talking to yourself, wanting to believe with such fervor.

That's another exercise of free will, talking to yourself and making yourself believe. Now if you can't distinguish between truth and lie, between right and wrong, the possibility that you will choose unwisely is very high. This is why we have all these different religions, different 'beliefs'.

When I left Christianity, it was a rejection of all revealed religions.

Why is that, are you doing what the WBC The Phelps are doing?

I don't know what that is, but any divine revelation would undermine our free will--again, the reason the cosmos was created.

It is Westboro Baptist Church, they make even Christians hate them.

There is no 'divine revelation'. Either divination, or revelation. The Devil divines, or tells you things and expects you to believe it.
God 'reveals' things to us; "See, if you do this and that, here is the result", .. revelation, instead of divination.

A used car salesman will more likely divine to you; "Trust me, it's a good car .. take my word for it"
A good man, a godly man will tear the car apart and reveal everything about the car to you. This way you actually see what you're getting.

The only thing that can actually have free will is our mind, not the body, so the cosmos has nothing to do with your ability to experience free will, but your free will can experience the cosmos.

Remember my train and track example? The train may have tracks laid out going every possible direction for it, but unless it has a mind of its own, it cannot experience 'free will'. It would just remain where we put it.

You start with "If God exists, .." can you at least give us a hint as to how you imagine this non-human quality "it" so we Believers could understand a little more about your god version "it"? Have you seen or read of a god-like machine, or rock, or a wood statue 'create' any biological beings? I just want to know where you get the "it" from?

God, if It exists, is Truth which is everything that is. And we are in God's image because we are self-aware, the necessary quality to possess free will.

But 'everything that is' also contains lies.

Another trait, or proof of free will is being self aware. Inanimate objects are not self aware, .. they are 'it'. God and us humans created in His image are self aware, thus we are not an 'it', but a 'who' described as 'he, she', .. not an 'it'. But you may exercise your free will to deny the truth, so you can call your children little It's if you wish.

As I just said Truth is God, wherever that leads, whether It is a super spirit being or a nothing at all. And Truth demands that I remember that I don't know. I have learned to live without knowing. For me, the only reason I believe in God is hope. And if It does exist, It created the universe for one reason only--as a natural, rational stage where we can exercise our free will using reason, and make our moral choices on our own. Then, on our deathbed we know who we really are, if we can avoid lying to ourselves...again.

You asked.

There is no 'truth' in "nothing at all", .. because "nothing at all" is 'nothing at all'.

Of course there is, the universe exists whether the Truth of it is conscious or not.

"Nothing at all" cannot, and does not contain a universe. Nothing at all cannot even contain a Higgs boson let alone an entire universe.

If you are not conscious, how would you determine if a thing is true or not, .. or be aware of yourself? How could you even say: "The Universe exists, so it must be Truth"??

When I left Christianity, I went straight to deism where I've been ever since. I could easily have converted my sense of betrayal by ALL revealed religions into becoming an angry atheist. If I ever feel like abandoning all hope and surrendering my God given free will, then I might come back, or I could just as easily become a Satanist. The reasoning, or rather the lack of it, is the same--blind faith. Somebody says "Believe!", and I'd say "How low!"

gods created by religious doctrines are not 'God', actually more like demons or Satan himself. Pope Francis has announced this, so the cat is out of the bag.

So, the Pope speaks for God? Sorry, that's been done to death.

Maybe, but only by and within a religious POV. But here is the truth;

Again, we, this includes the Pope, have free will. If he listens to divinations which he admittedly does, and even worships Devine beings, then he is a Diviner, a medium for demonic spirits and can only speak for them, or what they have divined to him. As I said; "God is Spirit who reveals things to us, .. not divines things."

This is why Christian churches will not debate their doctrines like the Trinity, because they know, and are afraid that their 'divinations' will be "revealed".

Also, the rest of the Christian dominations are returning to "mother of all religions", the Catholic Church and her Deity Lucifer and awaiting the coming of his son Jesus Christ (anti-Christ according to the Bible)

Well that was a neck-snapping U turn. So which denomination of which religion is the correct one?

Ha, ha, ha, .. I love the way you put that. Only it's not a U-turn, for they all worship Deities and are diviners, mediums to these deities. The Pope just announced the truth behind this, the fact that all religions, including the Christian RELIGION worships Lucifer. So the Pope just said: Hey, quit screwing around and lets get back together since we all worship the same Deity, which is Lucifer.

NONE. No Denomination, of ANY Religion is the 'correct one', they all worship Deities, and the ruler, or Chief of these deities is Lucifer.

The reason I am telling you this is so you would not just go back to that 'blind-faith', instead a faith with substance built on evidence. It is what is required for true faith.

Blind-faith is required by the religions, all religions.

By all revealed religions, or any cosmological philosophy which declares that it is without a doubt the correct one. My deism is a philosophy whcih assumes that if there is a God, It best fits the evidence. But the minute a deist or an atheist claims their model to be certain, they become based on blind faith as well.

But look, you just said; "It best fits the evidence", right? Well what is 'evidence'? Is, or can evidence be acquired by blind faith? Blind faith doesn't require evidence, so those deists and atheists, and theists believe whatever the religion they chose dictates to them. They too have free will, only they put limitation to how far they are willing to exercise it.

I have presented and shown Undeniable Scientific Evidence of Creator God. I expect you to verify this evidence, Just as God expects us to verify all evidence before we just simply believe in anything that is thrown our way.

Religions that deal with god/gods, especially Deities don't want you to seek for evidence. They tell you 'God' or Creator CANNOT be comprehended with the human mind, so don't ask, just accept what we tell you. This is blind faith.

God on the other hand 'Reveals' Himself. He will not 'force Himself down your throat', but will reveal to you as much evidence as you are interested to verify before you say; "I Believe in God the Creator". I believe because I have verified all the evidence that has been presented to me, pro or con.

You want a nice complete package, go to religion, to some church, they each have a nice package for you, and no need to investigate, or even open the package, just accept it.

But remember, once you start opening that package to investigate what's inside, you will offend them for not trusting them. So they will either shun you, or label you as a non-believer because you 'doubted', or like in my case, excommunicate you. "How dare you question our credibility? Our genuineness?, .. our faith?"

[Peter]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

You just explained your spirit/mind exercising 'free will'. (The soul is the mind/spirit and body together, that makes us 'living souls'.)

You put it so well; "Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will."

My mind goes: "I got to get out there and pull them weeds before I get written up by the HOA. Then it actually imagines the body going out there and doing it .. then my body/brain says no, .. tomorrow!

You believe you have two centers of consciousness, the mind and the brain? You're aware that the mind is strongly linked to the physical brain right? You can't change the brain without simultaneously changing the mind in some way. Also, the total lack of scientific evidence for spirits and ghosts bodes poorly for the existence of mind without brain.

So without any little omniscient man on your shoulder to guide your choices how can you have free will? We all make our own choices which are at their simplest the result of uncontrolled and unknown chemical processes.

Sam Harris expounds rather interestingly on free will here.

[arian]

Free will is not something to be "justified". It is simply how the subject relates to the world. Conversely, determinism is how the object relates to the world.

Whether you have free will or not depends on whether you are considering your "self" as an object or subject.

Science, for it's part, views all things as objects rather than subjects, so the idea of "scientifically justified free-will" is impossible in principle.

So free will exists, such as it is, but it is not the business of science to prove or disprove.

Are you saying then that 'gravity' doesn't exist? That Newton was just 'preaching' when he explained gravity? You know, since "scientific justification of free will is impossible" then so is gravity, and time, and many other things that scientists are busting their brains over.

'Nothing' is also a very good one, and I have discovered 'nothing', .. and yes I can verify this scientifically. It's not an object (even though scientists claim they can see gravity make waves in it!?!?)

I'm telling you that between two 'things' touching, there is 'nothing'. And I do mean it is there. Just as our mind is, limited to and responsible for this physical body, yet can contemplate and examine 'all things', including its own body from the outside. You know, like using a mirror for instance, or listening and considering what others say about me.

I have a body which is the created, my mind is the creator. God is Spirit and does not have a body, so His Spirit examines Himself within Himself by the Spirit, or a part of His Spirit that is dedicated as a search engine. Actually I could never been able to 'scientifically' explain this before the invention of the computer.

It seems that the more that man tries to distance himself from God his Creator with human created, or this 'finite' wisdom, the more he reveals his Creator.

So realizing this, now the only way man can truly distance himself from his Creator is by committing suicide, as is evident in his plan "Agenda 21". Yet people say I'm the crazy one!?

You want evidence of the attempting suicide? Come here to Arizona and you will see our air sprayed so heavy with alumina and other destructive chemicals that our setting sun which should be turning orange to red as it sets is actually impossible to look into. It is like a continuous very large and powerful camera flash. It is so bright, that my shadow is vanishing because of the bright light coming off of my surrounding.
It remains this bright until it vanishes behind the mountains. Watching a beautiful sunset is no longer advisable.

[FarWanderer]

Free will is not something to be "justified". It is simply how the subject relates to the world. Conversely, determinism is how the object relates to the world.

Whether you have free will or not depends on whether you are considering your "self" as an object or subject.

Science, for it's part, views all things as objects rather than subjects, so the idea of "scientifically justified free-will" is impossible in principle.

So free will exists, such as it is, but it is not the business of science to prove or disprove.

Are you saying then that 'gravity' doesn't exist?

No. Gravity exists such as it is. It's a pattern of behavior observed to be universal to all matter. The fact that it's observed is why it is in the realm of science.

Free will is different; it cannot be observed, only experienced.

[ThePainefulTruth]

Actually that 'poor' you describe is the greedy one. Envious and greedy. I don't see the poor that way, only the rich. The rich envy even the few dollars the poor has and will devise a way to take it from him.

Which is it then, the poor are greedy, or the rich?

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

And I'm the self-righteous one. Good night.

[arian]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

You just explained your spirit/mind exercising 'free will'. (The soul is the mind/spirit and body together, that makes us 'living souls'.)

You put it so well; "Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will."

My mind goes: "I got to get out there and pull them weeds before I get written up by the HOA. Then it actually imagines the body going out there and doing it .. then my body/brain says no, .. tomorrow!

You believe you have two centers of consciousness, the mind and the brain?

No. The mind has total free will, but the things we have stored in the brain can influence the mind. My mind says; pull the weeds or the HOA will penalize you.
The stuff stored in my brain indicates that they don't penalize all the time, I had bigger weeds last year, .. etc.

You're aware that the mind is strongly linked to the physical brain right? You can't change the brain without simultaneously changing the mind in some way. Also, the total lack of scientific evidence for spirits and ghosts bodes poorly for the existence of mind without brain.

Another good point; You have been taught (stored in the brain) that; "the total lack of scientific evidence for spirits and ghosts bodes poorly for the existence of mind without brain." so ignore every evidence arian gives you. You speak from religious indoctrination, what you have been taught as to what is right and what is wrong, what to accept and what to discard, this is not science. Like the churches I went to, they just couldn't accept any evidence that contradicted their religious teachings.

So without any little omniscient man on your shoulder to guide your choices how can you have free will? We all make our own choices which are at their simplest the result of uncontrolled and unknown chemical processes.

Sam Harris expounds rather interestingly on free will here.

I didn't have to read too far into the article to see Harris's delusion:

Article samharris- "In my view, the reality of good and evil does not depend upon the existence of free will, because with or without free will, we can distinguish between suffering and happiness. With or without free will, a psychopath who enjoys killing children is different from a pediatric surgeon who enjoys saving them. Whatever the truth about free will, these distinctions are unmistakable and well worth caring about."

1. "In my view, the reality of good and evil does not depend upon the existence of free will,"

Aahh.. because good and evil is just there, right Mr Harris? It's not that we can 'choose' between the two, that would mean free will. But since free will doesn't exist, then ,... then, .. then, .. then what?

2. "because with or without free will, we can distinguish between suffering and happiness."

Another words as I understand he's saying; even if you are colorblind you can distinguish between colors; "this one is green, .. and this one is red. See?"

Aaah, .. sorry but no Mr. Harris, that one you pointed to was blue, and the other one was orange.

3. "With or without free will, a psychopath who enjoys killing children is different from a pediatric surgeon who enjoys saving them. Whatever the truth about free will, these distinctions are unmistakable and well worth caring about."

May I ask HOW that is different? Let's see now;
One ENJOYS killing children, and the other ENJOYS saving them. How is that different? One free-will choice kills, and the others free-will choice saves, and they both enjoy what they are doing. ??

I wonder if he has a degree in theology from a school of Divinity or something because this guy wreaks of religious indoctrination. Dr. Spock's Vulcan Mentality comes to mind.