The great josephus interpolation

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goodwithoutgod
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The great josephus interpolation

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Flavius Josephus

Christian apologetic fans most popular non-Christian writer that mentions Jesus is Flavius Josephus. Although he was born in 37 CE and could not have been a contemporary of Jesus, he lived close enough to the time to be considered a valuable secondhand source. Josephus was a highly respected and much quoted Roman historian. He died sometime after the year 100 and his two major tomes were The antiquities of the Jews and the wars of the Jews. Antiquities was written sometime after the year 90 CE. In book 18, chapter 3, this paragraph is encountered:

now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works " a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, and condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

This does appear to give historical confirmation for the existence of Jesus. But is it authentic? Most scholars, including most fundamentalist scholars, admit that at least some parts of this paragraph cannot be authentic. Many are convinced that the entire paragraph is a complete forgery, an interpolation inserted by Christians at a later time. There are at least seven solid reasons for this:

1) The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origens second century version of Josephus, in Origen Contra Celsum, where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve.

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear at all until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Emperor Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of the Emperor, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity was to become Orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius once wrote that it was a permissible medicine for historians to create fictions " prompting historian Jacob Burckhardt to call Eusebius the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.

The fact that Josephus " Jesus paragraph shows up at this point in history " at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common and when the Emperor was eager to demolish gnostic Christianity and replace it with literalistic Christianity " makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger and interpolator of the paragraph on Jesus that magically appears in the works of Josephus.

2) Josephus would not have called Jesus the Christ or the truth. Whoever wrote these phrases was a believing Christian. Josephus was a messianic Jew, and he truly believed Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah (the Christ), he certainly would have given more than a passing reference to him. Josephus never converted to Christianity. Origen reported that Josephus was not believing in Jesus as the Christ.

3) The passage is out of context. Book 18 (containing the interval of 32 years from the banishment of Archelus to the departure from Babylon) starts with Roman taxation under Cyrenius in 6 CE and talks about various Jewish sexts at the time, including the Essenes and a sect of Judas the Galilean, which he devotes three times more space than to Jesus. He discusses at great depth the local history in great detail. But oddly this single paragraph can be listed out of the text with no damage to the chapter or the way it flows. Almost as if it was added after the fact, which of course it was.

4) The phrase to this day shows that this is a later interpolation. There was no tribe of Christians during Josephus' time. Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

5) In all of Josephus voluminuous works, there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere outside of this tiny paragraph. He relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus. He lists the activities of many other self-proclaimed Messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the magician and the Egyptian Jew Messiah, but is mute about the life of one whom he claims (if he had actually wrote it) is the answer to this messianic hopes.

6) The paragraph mentions that the divine prophets foretold the life Jesus, but Josephus neglects to mention who these prophets were or what they said. In no other place does Josephus connect any Hebrew prediction with the life of Jesus. If Jesus truly had been the fulfillment of divine prophecy, as Christians believe, Josephus wouldve been the one learned enough to document it.

7) The hyperbolic language of the paragraph is uncharacteristic of a careful historian: As the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him This sounds more like sectarian propaganda " in other words, more like the new testament " then objective reporting. It is very unlike Josephus.

Christians should be careful when they refer to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era. But Christ was of so little consequence and his deeds too trivial to merit a line from this historians pen.

So gentle readers, anyone wish to debate this little gem? 8-)

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Post #41

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Korah wrote: My Gospel Eyewitnesses (that there are seven written eyewitness accounts of Jesus used as sources for the four gospels) is my own discovery.
You are entitled to an opinion just like everyone else; however, your unsubstantiated / unverified / unaccepted opinion has NO MERIT in debate.
Korah wrote: You have to take my reasoning as it stands,
I have no reason to accept your "reasoning as it stands."

How, exactly does your "seven written eyewitness accounts" claim relate to book 18, chapter 3, of Antiquities by Flavius Josephus (written many decades after the proposed death of Jesus? That is the OP subject, isn't it (or is the intent of your post to promote your thesis rather than debate the OP subject)?
Korah wrote: I cannot footnote any people who say the same as I do.
That is not surprising since scholars and theologians do not seem in agreement with your conjectures.
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Post #42

Post by Wootah »

Korah wrote: [Replying to post 38 by Zzyzx]
My Gospel Eyewitnesses (that there are seven written eyewitness accounts of Jesus used as sources for the four gospels) is my own discovery. I've been derided at Atheist websites as "the new Galileo". You have to take my reasoning as it stands, I cannot footnote any people who say the same as I do.

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Please review the Rules.
Hi Korah,

Please note that you won't be able to use your 7 eyewitness theory as evidence in debate but you are allowed to you put forward and debate the evidence for your 7 eyewitness theory.

I also have not looked at your posts very often but I hope they are not all talking about your 7 eyewitness theory either. Ultimately this site becomes difficult for people who have their own revelation or means of knowing something because of the repeated unsubstantiated claim rule.

From the looks of it you have built this thesis up in many places and times. Perhaps you should store your ideas in a book or a single website?

However it would be best to keep the use of the thesis to a minimum or create your own threads so that we discuss the thesis and the evidence for it directly. Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum might suit.

Wootah

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #43

Post by Mithrae »

goodwithoutgod wrote:If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era.
Not quite true: From memory neither Josephus nor Philo mention Hillel the Elder either (died c. 10 CE), the founder of one of two sects of Pharisees and said to have been head of the Sanhedrin. Since the other Jewish sects were largely destroyed during the revolts, the influence of the House of Hillel came to dominate rabbinic Judaism, making Hillel himself arguably one of the most important Jewish figures of the 1st centuries BCE and CE.

However Josephus actually does mention Jesus elsewhere, as the brother of a fellow who became more important in his own time than Jesus had been. James was the head of the Christian church (Paul names him first among the three 'pillars' in Galatians 2 and suggests that even Barnabas and Peter deferred to men sent by him) until his death at the hands of the Jewish authorities shortly before the war. 2nd century Jewish Christian church chronicler Hegesippus wrote a rather embellished account, but Josephus was considerably more objective (and less interested in James himself). Placing the event in c. 62CE, he suggests that it was the catalyst for the removal of Ananus the younger as high priest:
  • Antiquities 20.9.1
    http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm

    But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23) who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #44

Post by Goat »

Mithrae wrote:
goodwithoutgod wrote:If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era.
Not quite true: From memory neither Josephus nor Philo mention Hillel the Elder either (died c. 10 CE), the founder of one of two sects of Pharisees and said to have been head of the Sanhedrin. Since the other Jewish sects were largely destroyed during the revolts, the influence of the House of Hillel came to dominate rabbinic Judaism, making Hillel himself arguably one of the most important Jewish figures of the 1st centuries BCE and CE.

However Josephus actually does mention Jesus elsewhere, as the brother of a fellow who became more important in his own time than Jesus had been. James was the head of the Christian church (Paul names him first among the three 'pillars' in Galatians 2 and suggests that even Barnabas and Peter deferred to men sent by him) until his death at the hands of the Jewish authorities shortly before the war. 2nd century Jewish Christian church chronicler Hegesippus wrote a rather embellished account, but Josephus was considerably more objective (and less interested in James himself). Placing the event in c. 62CE, he suggests that it was the catalyst for the removal of Ananus the younger as high priest:
  • Antiquities 20.9.1
    http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm

    But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23) who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
And Joespehus was taking about Jesus, the son of Damneus, with a good chance the 'brother of the one called Christ' being an interpolation.
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #45

Post by Mithrae »

Goat wrote: And Joespehus was taking about Jesus, the son of Damneus, with a good chance the 'brother of the one called Christ' being an interpolation.
There being no evidence whatsoever of that of course, besides an apparent aversion to any historical reference to a Jesus called Christ. Quite to the contrary, as the OP notes one of the main reasons for suspecting that the TF was tampered with is that Origen makes no mention of it - and yet Origen quotes from this passage on no less than three occasions, specifically referencing it by author (Josephus) and work (Antiquities of the Jews).

Some folk are persuaded by unsubstantiated speculation about an additional, earlier Christian hand in the Josephus text, in the 2nd or early 3rd centuries before there was much opportunity or motive for tampering. I myself am not.

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #46

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

[Replying to post 1 by goodwithoutgod]

I'm a non-Christian but I do think Jesus is an historical figure. I think Josephus' references to James (one where he calls him the brother of Jesus, but I think "the Christ" was later edited in), John the Baptist and one reference to the Herodian, Saulus, aka Paul, is strong evidence by association that Jesus did exist. The connection with James alone is probably enough.

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