Christianity made "Nice". Is it possible?

[Divine Insight]

Many modern day Christians are attempting to make a nicer God out of the Christian religion by discounting the concept of hell or eternal torment.

I suggest that this is futile for the following reasoning:

To begin with let's imagine that there is no "hell" where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth, etc. Of course we need to dismiss biblical references even made by Jesus himself concerning the idea of people being punished in tortuous ways.

Jesus however did say that people will go the way of "everlasting punishment". Those who reject the notion of hell simply suggest that death itself is an "everlasting punishment'. But even so, it's still being called a "punishment'.

Why should death be a punishment if someone is simply choosing death over living under this God's commandments for the rest of eternity? They are simply declining his offer. Why should they be "punished" for that? The mere fact that choosing anything other than total obedience to this God for eternity is being called "punishment" demands that this is precisely what it is, whether it's eternal torture or not is actually a moot point. It's still being decreed as a "punishment".

They even used terms like "damnation". Anyone who refuses to cower down to this God's demands will be damned. So this is still a very wrathful God even if there is no eternal torment involved.

This God's "wrath" is referred to many times all throughout the Bible. And for those who love Paul more than Jesus here's what Paul had to say about Jesus:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here Paul is saying that we have been "justified" by the blood of Jesus. Like somehow Jesus having been brutally beaten and nailed to a pole "justifies" our sins. Why should that be the case? Why should brutally beating an innocent demigod and nailing him to a pole "justify" our wrongdoings? On the contrary that very act should only add to the supposed sins of mankind, not subtract from them.

But more importantly look at what Paul says we have been saved from. We have been saved from "wrath" though Jesus.

So once again it's this God's wrath that we ultimately need to be "saved" from. And apparently this wrathful God was sufficiently pleased that we beat his son to a pulp and nailed him to a pole that he will accept this hostile brutal act, as atonement for all the other horrible things we might have done.

And only those who condone and accept this arrangement will be 'saved' from this God's wrath. All other will go the way or "everlasting punishment". Even if it's only death, it's still being deemed to be a "punishment" that is somehow deserved.

I suggest that there is no way to make a nice God out of Christianity. Even the removal of an eternal hell cannot save this religion from "God's Wrath".

Death itself then becomes a wrathful "punishment".

Question for Debate: Can Christianity be saved from portraying a hateful wrathful God, even by removing the concept of an eternal hell of torture?

Obviously my position is that it cannot be save. Even if death alone is deemed to be the "punishment" in this religion and referred to as "damnation", then death itself is being held up as a punishment that is somehow deserved by anyone who refuses to accept this God's relentless and unyielding demands.

I hold that the only way to make this God into a decent deity would be if it had actually offered the choice of death as a polite rejection of it's ultimatums. You can hardly hold death over people's heads as a "deserved punishment" and simultaneously claim that this justifies this creator.

I see this religion as nothing more than a very unethical cult that does nothing other than try to make out like everyone who refuses to join and support the cult somehow "deserves" to be damned, or whatever.

It's basically an extremely unethical cult. And of course Islam is pulling the same stunt with their Allah and Qur'an but that's a separate matter even though it's basically the same fundamental mythology just twisted in a slightly different way.

So again:

Question for Debate: Can Christianity be saved from portraying a hateful wrathful God, even by removing the concept of an eternal hell of torture?

[OnceConvinced]

I'd have to say No. Even without Hell, the God of the bible is portrayed as a genocidal monster. He will order the stoning of people simply for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. He will make rape victims marry their rapists and also establishes guidelines on how you can beat your slaves within an inch of their lives.

Even if you threw the entire Old Testament into the bin (which some Christians attempt to do anyway), you are still left with Jesus who condemned and demonized those who thought differently to him. He was the one who pretty much insisted you had to kiss his feet if you want eternal life in Heaven. He went mental and threw a temper tantrum, vandalizing other people's property in the temple. He wanted people to become gullible children and just follow him and do whatever he wanted them to do.

Clearly Jesus was more concerned with boosting his ego than about the wellbeing of mankind.

[higgy1911]

Wow. Both of your posts are spot on.

There are certainly some nice sound bites that can be plucked from the New Testament but when taken in its entirety and kept in context there is undoubtedly something sinister about the whole thing. A handful of good moral teachings can be found but the salvation narrative in every form I have heard it explained is profoundly totalitarian and anti free will.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Christianity made "Nice". Is it possible?

I'll not accept as "nice", folks who promote books or ideas that call me a "fool" for my rejection of their unsupportable claims.

Nor will I accept as "nice", the oppression, by voting booth or sword, of my fellow human beings.


Ain't no "nice" to "play", with those who ain't!

[Mithrae]

Obviously my position is that it cannot be save. Even if death alone is deemed to be the "punishment" in this religion and referred to as "damnation", then death itself is being held up as a punishment that is somehow deserved by anyone who refuses to accept this God's relentless and unyielding demands.

What exactly are this God's relentless and unyielding demands?

• 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
  
  
  Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
  Incense is an abomination to Me.
  The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
  I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
  14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
  My soul hates;
  They are a trouble to Me,
  I am weary of bearing them.
  15 When you spread out your hands,
  I will hide My eyes from you;
  Even though you make many prayers,
  I will not hear.
  Your hands are full of blood.
  16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
  Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
  Cease to do evil,
  17 Learn to do good;
  Seek justice,
  Rebuke the oppressor;
  Defend the fatherless,
  Plead for the widow.
  
  
  Amos 5:11 Therefore, because you tread down the poor
  And take grain taxes from him,
  Though you have built houses of hewn stone,
  Yet you shall not dwell in them;
  You have planted pleasant vineyards,
  But you shall not drink wine from them.
  12 For I know your manifold transgressions
  And your mighty sins:
  Afflicting the just and taking bribes;
  Diverting the poor from justice at the gate.
  13 Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time,
  For it is an evil time. . . .
  
  21 “I hate, I despise your feast days,
  And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
  22 Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
  I will not accept them,
  Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
  23 Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
  For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
  24 But let justice run down like water,
  And righteousness like a mighty stream.
  
  
  Matthew 12:7 But if you had known what this means, “I desire mercy and not sacrifice,� you would not have condemned the guiltless.
  
  
  Matthew 25:44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
  
  
  Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’�
  20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.�
  21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.�
  22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
  
  
  Luke 10:32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. . . . 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?�
  37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.�
  Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.�
  
  
  John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.
  
  
  Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.�

The persistent issue of concern for the poor is an interesting theme in the bible, even into the 21st century when over half the world's population lives on less than three dollars a day.

I don't know about you, but I spend more money and more time on unnecessary luxuries for myself than I do on trying to help the billions who are suffering around the world. Can I claim to be a good person just because I'm saintly enough to refrain from actively stealing and raping and killing people?

You apparently think so: You seem to believe that most people are just fine as they are, that our overwhelming tendency to put our own petty comforts ahead of the genuine, often life-or-death needs of others is not bad at all: That the only reason you can possibly imagine for 'punishment' must be divine jealousy.

Personally though I'd have to lean more towards the Christian view on this one. If there were some kind of objective moral judgement passed on humanity, overwhelmingly we wouldn't measure up to even that fairly modest standard of putting other people's genuine needs above our own luxuries.

Or as the bible puts it, having love for one another.

[Divine Insight]

Or as the bible puts it, having love for one another.

That's not even remotely close to what the Bible teaches.

If the Bible simply taught love then what would Jesus have to do with anything? There would be no need to believe in Jesus at all. And there would especially be no need to have the bloody gory crucifixion of Jesus as the centerpiece of Christianity.

Also have you forgotten that Jesus is supposed to be your "savior"?

What are you supposedly being "saved" from?

You are being saved from the wrath of God. And why is this God so angry and upset with you? Merely because you don't love other people? No hardly.

He's angry with you because you have broken his commandments. You are less than perfectly obedient. Have you been joyfully bashing the babies of your enemies against rocks like God has commanded you do to?

Have you been stoning sinners to death to put the evil away from among you as God has commanded that you must do?

Have you been stoning your unruly children to death instead of taking them to a doctor to be placed on Prozac?

Have you killed everyone who has ever come into your neighborhood preaching of a God other than HIM?

If all you are doing is sitting around preaching that everyone should love one another God might really be upset with you. You could be seriously testing his limits of patience.

Christianity isn't about love. It's about absolute unwavering obedience whether you agree with what you are being commanded to do or not. It's not your choice to agree or disagree with God. You are to simply obey like a totally blind puppet. Any objection to God's commandments will earn you eternal damnation.

It has nothing at all to do with love.

[1213]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And Jesus said his blood is:

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.� He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

So, what was the blood of the New Covenant that was made through Jesus? The actual physical blood, or that what was inside the cup that Jesus offered? Why?

[Divine Insight]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And Jesus said his blood is:

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.� He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

So, what was the blood of the New Covenant that was made through Jesus? The actual physical blood, or that what was inside the cup that Jesus offered? Why?

The Bible uses the term "covenant", but a covenant is an agreement. Jesus didn't have any agreement with anyone, on the contrary he was apparently a dictator.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Does that sound like a covenant that any sane decent man would agree too?

Jesus had no covenant with anyone. He was a fascist dictator demanding very specific and outrageous things that no decent man would ever agree to. To even refer to that as a covenant would be dishonest on the part of Jesus.

[Mithrae]

Or as the bible puts it, having love for one another.

That's not even remotely close to what the Bible teaches.

It's precisely what the bible teaches. It's variously referred to the new commandment, the whole of the law, the greatest virtue (greater than faith!) and the proof of knowing God. Nor is that some weird New Testament teaching: Hillel the Elder (grandfather of Gamaliel, the alleged teacher of Paul) is said to have told a Gentile enquirer "That which you hate do not do to your fellow, this is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary; go and learn." Those quotes from Isaiah and Amos show that even the OT God regarded piety and rituals as utterly worthless compared to justice and mercy.

You asked if Christianity could be "made nice," yet you refuse even to acknowledge what is clearly, explicitly and repeatedly shown to be the central and most important part of it.

I guess you're in grand company - plenty of fundamentalist Christians prefer to focus on the minutiae too.

[OnceConvinced]

Christianity isn't about love. It's about absolute unwavering obedience whether you agree with what you are being commanded to do or not. It's not your choice to agree or disagree with God. You are to simply obey like a totally blind puppet. Any objection to God's commandments will earn you eternal damnation.

It has nothing at all to do with love.

This is very true. When it all comes down to it, sin and the way we treat others has nothing to do with whether we are saved or not. The only thing that matters is that we believe in Jesus and accept his death on the cross. If we don't do that, then we're doomed. The so-called forgiveness of sin is completely redundant really, because for us to be forgiven of anything we have to FIRST acknowledge Christ as King.

No amount of repentance or trying to make up for the wrongs we do, matters when it comes to Jesus. No amount of charitable acts we do makes a difference. No matter how much we love our family, our neighbors or even our enemies, it makes no difference. The only thing that matters is our acceptance of Jesus. We must kiss his butt or we're doomed.