The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[Divine Insight]

However, you have made several very 'positive' claims here. I am challenging you to PROVE every single one of them.

I don't feel that I need to prove something that is so blatantly obvious. Christians have already proven everything that I have observed about them by their own actions and their own claims.

Christians wouldn't need to worry about "interpreting" the Bible if they were actually in contact with a divine source of knowledge.

Their apologetic excuses for their religion fail at every turn. Not only that by they even use contradicting apologies depending on what they are attempting to apologize for at any particular moment.

The fact that there are countless disagreeing sects and denominations of Christianity is a testament to how clueless they are. Even the Catholic Popes haven't been consistent in their beliefs.

It's crystal clear that none of these people are in contact with any supernatural God. There is no need to "prove" it. On the contrary, any Christians who want to claim otherwise are the ones who need to back up those claims.

Do YOU know of any Christian who is actually in direct communication with God?

If so, could you ask them to have God explain to us why he abandoned Mother Teresa they way he did? I think God owes the world an explanation on that one.

I have nothing that needs to be proved Dianaiad. The Christians are the ones who are in dire need of proving their claims. Thus far all they have proven is that they have no clue what's going on. They all have totally different ideas of what Christianity should even be or stand for. Clearly none of them have any guidance from any divine Holy Spirit.

They ARE the proof of my observations.

[FinalEnigma]

Prove that 'faith" means "never getting a convincing answer from any imagined supreme supernatural being."

wouldn't it defeat the purpose of faith if you got a direct, convincing answer? How could you have faith if you had complete, convincing evidence for the prospect in question?

[higgy1911]

[Replying to post 11 by dianaiad]

Great, I don't deny your experience of getting answers and you don't deny my experience of silence.

The problem is that this doesn't help lead anyone to or away from Christianity because such a personal experience has no bearing on objective reality. Personal experience only reflects objective reality when you can share and show it.

If Jesus talks to a Christian thats great and I dont deny it. The problem is I can prove that Jesus doesn't engage personally with all christians. Like OC I was one who spent years opening the door to my heart to Christ. Its still open and no one has shown up. And as with most recovering Christians I don't shut the door, I just stop expecting visitors, as any reasonable person would.

So if Jesus talks to you thats great. All that this shows me is that he lied about the seek and you shall find bit. Because many seek and do not find. The fact that some do find does not make the instruction much more honest. The correct instruction would at best be "Seek and perhaps you will find and perhaps you will not" .

To proceed at this point as if God has any answers to offer me would be absurd, and I'm happy to hear from any Christian a suggestion as to something I havent done already that would allow me to pursue a relationship with Him.

In fact I would love to hear what Christians think that they have tried that recovering Christians haven't?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

I don't think it's up to us to resolve. The Holy Spirit can and does work through me, touching the lives of God's people, for both those who believe and those who don't. I didn't read the entire Bible before I accepted Christ either. I also know you can just simply ask God if He exists. I look at it this way: If I had a problem with my heart, I wouldn't go see a dentist. You don't have to pray, just ask a question. The truth is, if you weren't searching somewhat, I don't think you would be on this forum in the first place. No disrespect intended

[dianaiad]

However, you have made several very 'positive' claims here. I am challenging you to PROVE every single one of them.

I don't feel that I need to prove something that is so blatantly obvious.

Yes.

You do.

Rules of the forum.

It may be 'blatantly obvious' to you, but there are quite a few folks here who don't see your claims as 'blatantly obvious.' My support for THAT is that...if they were 'blatantly obvious,' then there wouldn't be any theists posting here. We'd all have changed our minds and now agree with you.

Since there are theists posting here (and indeed, theists all over the place) your claims are not all that obvious.

So you need to support them. Prove them.

At least, provide some 'blatantly obvious' evidence of your claims.

Christians have already proven everything that I have observed about them by their own actions and their own claims.

Christians wouldn't need to worry about "interpreting" the Bible if they were actually in contact with a divine source of knowledge.

Their apologetic excuses for their religion fail at every turn. Not only that by they even use contradicting apologies depending on what they are attempting to apologize for at any particular moment.

The fact that there are countless disagreeing sects and denominations of Christianity is a testament to how clueless they are. Even the Catholic Popes haven't been consistent in their beliefs.

It's crystal clear that none of these people are in contact with any supernatural God. There is no need to "prove" it.

Sorry, but yes, there is. Your claim, your burden of proof.

On the contrary, any Christians who want to claim otherwise are the ones who need to back up those claims.

Do YOU know of any Christian who is actually in direct communication with God?

Yes.

Me.

At least, I believe so, and insofar as I believe that I pray and receive what I believe to be personal guidance from Him in my own religious and spiritual journey, I think that means I'm 'in direct communication with God."

Can I prove it to you? No. I can't. However, my communication with God does not depend upon whether or not you believe that I pray and receive answers to those prayers.

.......and I'm not here making incredibly broad and over the top statements about what 'the vast majority of atheists' believe, either.

I simply insist that, when you make such an over the top claim, that you use the same requirements that you require from theists. I really dislike double standards.

I mean, I truly do.

If so, could you ask them to have God explain to us why he abandoned Mother Teresa they way he did? I think God owes the world an explanation on that one.

If He did, then He owes it to Mother Teresa, not to you...or to me.

I have nothing that needs to be proved Dianaiad.

When you make claims such as the ones you made, you definitely do, DI.

Either support them or start adding language that lets us all know that these statements are your opinions, not 'blatantly obvious' facts that MUST be agreed upon by all who read them.

I don't particularly care which one of those options you choose, but do give us a break and choose one or the other.

The Christians are the ones who are in dire need of proving their claims.

And when someone posts on this forum making claims as strongly as you just did, I'll call on 'em to support them.

Thus far all they have proven is that they have no clue what's going on. They all have totally different ideas of what Christianity should even be or stand for. Clearly none of them have any guidance from any divine Holy Spirit.

They ARE the proof of my observations.

You made several very 'positive' claims. I am challenging you to prove them. Use outside sources. Use provable statistics, statements, something....

But prove them.

[Divine Insight]

The truth is, if you weren't searching somewhat, I don't think you would be on this forum in the first place. No disrespect intended

Actually there is no truth in this conclusion that you have jumped to.

Many people who actively speak out against Christianity, as well as other religions, are most certainly not seeking to find a God. On the contrary, they have simply come to the realization that these religions are extremely dangerous. Especially in the wake of 9/11.

I was just listening to a news program where Islamic children are being encouraged to join the "Islamic State" or ISIS, in the name of Allah. There are young teenagers who are anxious to kill and die for Allah so that they may become martyrs and be guaranteed paradise in heaven. And their parents are actually supporting them in this choice.

In fact one mother was interviewed and asked what she thought about her 13-year-old boy joining Islamic State to kill Westerners. She was very proud of her son in his choice, and encouraged it. She said that if he dies fighting for Allah she will be so happy to know that he will be in heaven.

This really isn't any different from Christians who believe that dying for Jesus is the ultimate act of martyrdom.

You may not realize this, but by supporting Christianity you are actually simultaneously supporting Islam. These are both based on the same fundamental ancient myths. You can hardly claim to believe in the demigod Jesus whilst scoffing at a Muslims for being so silly to believe in Muhammad or Allah.

Your very support for the reality of the demigod Jesus is a pronouncement to the world that you support beliefs in utterly absurd things.

It's a serious danger for the rest of us who also live on this planet Peds Nurse.

Your belief and support for the myths of a demigod named Jesus contribute to this kind of dangerous mentality worldwide.

So there are many atheists and secularists who simply recognize the dangers of these faith-based beliefs.

Also, you may have created in your own mind what you believe to be a "Loving Picture" of an imaginary Jesus and God. However, your personal views are irrelevant. The Old Testament actually contains many nasty things such as commandments to kill infidels, sinners, homosexuals, and anyone who preaches against the God of the Bible. These aren't mere suggestions but they are direct commandments that must be obeyed whether you agree with them or not.

In the New Testament is it written that Jesus said, "Not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law until heaven and earth pass".

Therefore just because you believe that you can pretend that Christianity is based upon love does not make it so. Christianity and Jesus can be used as an excuse to kill infidels, heathens, sinners, homosexuals, and anyone who preaches against the God of the Bible, or in this case Jesus.

So while you would like to pretend that Christianity is all about love because you are focused on Jesus, actually that's not what the religion is saying. So you are supporting things that you may not even want to be supporting.

You'd be much further ahead renouncing the religion publicly and if you want to pretend that there exists a Santa Claus Jesus just believe it on your own silently.

In fact, if you feel motivated at all to "Stand up for Jesus" or spread his word to the rest of the world, or claim that he is the King of Kings or Lord of Lords, then you are already supporting a spirit of "Jihad" whether you realize it or not.

So no. People who speak out against Christianity are not "searching for God".

[Divine Insight]

Since there are theists posting here (and indeed, theists all over the place) your claims are not all that obvious.

So you need to support them. Prove them.

At least, provide some 'blatantly obvious' evidence of your claims.

The Catholics believe that their Church represents God, and Jesus in particular. In fact, they refer to their Church symbolically as "The Body of Christ". They Pope is supposed to be ordained specifically by the Holy Spirit. God is supposed to commune directly with the Pope. The rest of us are then supposed to merely accept whatever the Pope says as the divine Word of God.

The Protestants protested against this belief. They proclaim that a person should be able to read the Holy Scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit to guide each and everyone one of them individually. They protest against having a single individual mortal man like the Pope as being the only human who is in commune with God.

The protestants have then broken up to become countless disagreeing sects of Christianity. With each different sect proclaiming to hold the truth of God whilst disagreeing with their neighboring sects. They are the greatest hypocrites of all because after having demanded that no mortal man should speak for God they continue to preach their own personal views (or the views of their individual protesting sects) as being the TRUE WORD OF GOD.

They can't all be right because they clearly disagree. If they weren't in disagreement on things there would be no need to have so many different sects and denominations.

So the "proof" is in Christendom itself. The Christians are their own proof that they have no clue what they are talking about and they are not in contact with any supernatural God.

I shouldn't need to offer you evidence for this since it's a very well known fact.

Here's a quick link to Wiki's list of Christian Denominations if you need evidence:

List of Christian Denominations

If there exists any God who is in contact with Humans, only the Catholic Church can be true. And only the Pope is in contact with God. This has to be the case, since the Protestants have already proven that God is not willing to communicate with just anyone.

However, we can also see that Catholicism can't be true either. The reason being that Popes throughout history have not all been in agreement and they have changed their minds on various issues. We can't have an unchanging God changing his mind over the centuries. So clearly these Popes are not in communication with any God either.

Also priests molestation of Children should make it crystal clear that the Catholic Church is not the "Body of Christ" even metaphorically.

~~~~~~

And this is just Christianity. But we need to remember that Christianity is just one offshoot form the original fables of Judaism. Jesus himself argued with orthodox Judaism and rejected and even directly rebuked various things that had been written and proclaimed in the Old Testament.

So it's not just Christianity that is clearly unstable and uncertain about what God wants, but the entire foundational religion, including Judaism and Islam are equally confused and clearly not the word of any God.

So it's not just Christianity that is the Great Pretender, but all these Abrahamic religions are examples of precisely the same kind of pretense.

Also when you support any one of them you are simultaneously supporting them all. Because you are basically contributing to the pretense and giving your support that people should be free to believe that their personally delusions come directly from GOD.

The proof is in the history of these mythologies Dianaiad.

I should not be required to prove history. History speaks for itself.

The Catholic Church was the best chance that Christianity ever had of becoming a single unified voice of God. And the Catholic Church clearly blew that one and proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that it's not the voice of any God.

All the rest of the Christian Protestantisms, Islam, and Judaism are all clearly an even greater pretense that have no merit for their claims whatsoever.

There is no God in contact with any of these people. They are all clearly just a bunch of individuals, or groups of individuals who preach their own delusions in the name of this foundational mythological God of Abraham.

It's clearly nothing more than an empty mythology. And the proof of this is in the history of these religions themselves.

I don't need to prove history. History speaks for itself.

[Peter]

Do YOU know of any Christian who is actually in direct communication with God?

Yes.

Me.

At least, I believe so, and insofar as I believe that I pray and receive what I believe to be personal guidance from Him in my own religious and spiritual journey, I think that means I'm 'in direct communication with God."

Dianaiad, you're obviously a very spiritual person. Isn't it possible that you have simply co-opted a religious concept to describe your own personal introspective spirituality?

I also look inward to ask questions and I frequently receive answers (good ones and bad ones) but I feel no need to attribute this thought process to a supernatural entity. Why do you?

[YahDough]

Did John the Baptist believe he had to repent to the God of the bible? Or did he think it was ok just to repent with no God involved?

John the baptist knew who Jesus was. They were cousins. I suspect they had quite a family secret going on while Jesus was growing up human. John knew it was all about repentance and the Kingdom of God.

Why would anyone in their right mind trust a book (Bible) that in their mind appears to be so flawed?

"Trust" should be put in Jesus, not the book. The "book" is meant to be read and discerned for truth. Specific issues that one feels are "flawed" can be worked out without abandoning the faith.

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

That is a problem for non-believers trying to read the Bible. The New Testament Bible was written to the Church of believers. Believers are Christians with the Holy Spirit.

You clearly don't get the problem. How can I get the holy spirit if I don't believe it even exists?

Were you a professing Christian for 30 years without the Holy Spirit?

Why should I trust anything the bible says when I supposedly don't understand it?

Why do you say "supposedly"? Did you never understand the Bible when you were a Christian? What issues do you have the most trouble with?

[dianaiad]

Do YOU know of any Christian who is actually in direct communication with God?

Yes.

Me.

At least, I believe so, and insofar as I believe that I pray and receive what I believe to be personal guidance from Him in my own religious and spiritual journey, I think that means I'm 'in direct communication with God."

Dianaiad, you're obviously a very spiritual person. Isn't it possible that you have simply co-opted a religious concept to describe your own personal introspective spirituality?

I also look inward to ask questions and I frequently receive answers (good ones and bad ones) but I feel no need to attribute this thought process to a supernatural entity. Why do you?

I don't NEED to have two trees in my front yard, Peter. There's plenty of shade with just one. However, whether I need them or not, they are there.

I don't NEED to attribute 'a natural thought process to a supernatural deity." I simply believe that I am indeed receiving answers to my prayers. In other words, it's not a 'need,' it simply is...like the extra tree in my yard.

I have had reason to consider the end of my life rather personally and deeply lately. I discovered two things: first, that if there is no God and no afterlife, then that would be fine; doesn't scare me any. There is no fearful 'need' there.

He just is, that's all. At least, I believe so, and I don't stress over it.