The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[YahDough]

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That sounds like propaganda from writers with fear that "apostates" (those who reject their "teachings") might lead "the faithful" away from "the faith." Perhaps that fear (or whatever it is) is justified because former believers are a strong voice against what they once accepted as "gospel truth."

That's true. But the real fear for "believers" should be falling back into the subtleties of sin against their declared faith.

Perhaps. It appears to me, however, from Christians who post here and those I know in real life as though their greatest fear is to fail in their attempts to "make it to heaven."

Why shouldn't it be? Narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

I think most people reject the "gospel truth" because it requires more dedication than they want, or are able, to handle.

Those who claim to follow the bible need not be dedicated to obeying its commandments and instructions. All they seem to think necessary is to ask forgiveness and repent (even on their deathbed) to "make it to heaven."

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is a good example of a "last minute reprieve." It seems sincere repentance can do wonders even for a bad situation.. Do you have trouble with that?

By contrast, many who do not accept Christianity or its bible take full responsibility for their own actions – which can be quite difficult.

I won't argue that non-believers can have it rough. I sure wouldn't want to be lost in this world without Christ.

Have you concluded that OC was "never a believer?"

No. But I would have liked to have been able to conclude that.

Have you concluded that OC WAS a believer? Either way, on what do you base a conclusion about OC's past?

I have no conclusions about OC.

[OnceConvinced]

I guess I was hoping you might realize you never were a "believer".

As if!

I was as much a believer as any of the other Christians who come through here. I was as convinced about it and as committed as anyone. I just can't take anyone seriously who tries to claim I wasn't a true Christian. If you knew my walk and knew my heart as a Christian, you wouldn't even be questioning it.

[OnceConvinced]

.Have you concluded that OC was "never a believer?"

No. But I would have liked to have been able to conclude that.
_________________

I can send you a 15 page document about my conversion and deconversion story if you wish. In fact I'm willing to send a copy to anyone who's interested. Simply PM me and I will send it on.

The problem is I have given this story to Christians in the past and it ends up just getting flagged away as if it were meaningless, which I find highly insulting. It just about always comes down to "If you were a true Christian you would never have deconverted" Doesn't seem to matter how genuine you were, how dedicated you were, or how much respect other Christians had for you while you were a believer.

[Divine Insight]

I guess I was hoping you might realize you never were a "believer".

Whether a person was a believer or not doesn't change a thing. A mythology that is clearly false is still clearly false no matter whether someone believes in it or not.

For example, believing in Greek mythology isn't going to make it true.

In fact, the same could be said of you. If you don't believe in Greek mythology then you must have never been a "believer" because if you had been one you would have never rejected Greek mythology.

In fact, don't the Muslims pull this same underhanded brainwashing scam in Islam too? If you don't believe in Allah then you must have never been a believer.

All you are telling us YahDough is that you are accepting the dogma without question. If you were a Muslim you'd be making the very same claims about Allah. It's the very same kind of brainwashing scam.

How is there any difference? Christianity and Islam are basically "Copy and Paste" theological scams. They both use the very same type of brainwashing tricks.

The fact that this is so typical of these Middle Eastern religions should be a wake-up call for you. You are being scammed with precisely the very same techniques used by Islam. If you had been born into Islam and "Truly Believed in Allah", then you'd be swearing allegiance with that cult based on precisely the very same reasoning. And if you ever left Islam then the same things would be said about you: You never "truly believed".

That just what these competitive religions do. They all want to own the patent rights on God and they won't take no for an answer.

[redo]

[[font=Courier New]Replying to post 103 by OnceConvinced.

I can send you a 15 page document about my conversion and deconversion story if you wish. In fact I'm willing to send a copy to anyone who's interested. Simply PM me and I will send it on.
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This is my first time trying to reply to someone on this forum, so this is a test. I came to this forum some time back, but I don't believe I tried to post then, so we'll give it a try now.

I am a believer in God, and my experience was opposite to yours. For thirty plus years I was an unbeliever. It is a long story as to how I came to believe. However it did start with my making a Choice to give God a try, well actually I gave religion a try because I couldn't believe in God.
I chose to seek God. I became very active in religion, but it was many years after that choice when I finally did believe. I don't even know when it first happened. One day I just realized that all doubt was gone.

I would like to read your 15 page document explaining your departure from the faith. Believe me I do understand why you and others on this forum have lost your faith.
I'm sure that you believe nothing I could say would ever make you believe again, and that is the way I feel. I can't imagine anything ever making me doubt God.
I'm a huge doubter in people, but I don't have any doubt that there is a God with a plan.

I'm just curious as to what happened to you and when.

With that said, being a true believer I can't even imagine anything causing me to not believe. When I was deep into religion I can see that some of your arguments could have caused me to stumble, but not now.
You probably feel that way about your new faith.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

Yes, to be a good believer, one must first believe. And what is it that people invariably believe? They invariably believe whatever it is that their mommy's and daddy's TELL them to believe! And then that becomes unwavering truth to be aggressively impressed upon the next generation.

[Zzyzx]

.

That sounds like propaganda from writers with fear that "apostates" (those who reject their "teachings") might lead "the faithful" away from "the faith." Perhaps that fear (or whatever it is) is justified because former believers are a strong voice against what they once accepted as "gospel truth."

That's true. But the real fear for "believers" should be falling back into the subtleties of sin against their declared faith.

Perhaps. It appears to me, however, from Christians who post here and those I know in real life as though their greatest fear is to fail in their attempts to "make it to heaven."

Why shouldn't it be? Narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

"Narrow" may be "the way" to a hypothetical "afterlife" that some have been convinced exists.

Why live a present life, which we know exists, in a manner prescribed by one of the thousands of religions – for which there is no assurance of truth or accuracy and no assurance that promised rewards or punishments are anything more than products of human imagination?

I think most people reject the "gospel truth" because it requires more dedication than they want, or are able, to handle.

Those who claim to follow the bible need not be dedicated to obeying its commandments and instructions. All they seem to think necessary is to ask forgiveness and repent (even on their deathbed) to "make it to heaven."

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is a good example of a "last minute reprieve." It seems sincere repentance can do wonders even for a bad situation..

Repentance may have some value in the real world (perhaps even at "last minute"); however, it cannot be shown to have any effect in a hypothetical "afterlife."

Do you have trouble with that?

Personal question? I have no "trouble" with what I regard as myths, folklore, wishful thinking, etc – but often challenge claims of those who declare knowledge that such things are true.

By contrast, many who do not accept Christianity or its bible take full responsibility for their own actions – which can be quite difficult.

I won't argue that non-believers can have it rough.

Yes, it can be difficult to make one's own decisions rather than relying upon ancient tales to declare what is moral, ethical, wise, appropriate.

I sure wouldn't want to be lost in this world without Christ.

Personal issue. Those who are born in other societies may feel lost without Mohammad to guide them.

Have you concluded that OC was "never a believer?"

No. But I would have liked to have been able to conclude that.

Have you concluded that OC WAS a believer? Either way, on what do you base a conclusion about OC's past?

I have no conclusions about OC.

It appeared as though SOME conclusions were involved in saying:

I guess I was hoping you might realize you never were a "believer". Thanks for the dialogue.

No conclusions?

[YahDough]

.

That sounds like propaganda from writers with fear that "apostates" (those who reject their "teachings") might lead "the faithful" away from "the faith." Perhaps that fear (or whatever it is) is justified because former believers are a strong voice against what they once accepted as "gospel truth."

That's true. But the real fear for "believers" should be falling back into the subtleties of sin against their declared faith.

Perhaps. It appears to me, however, from Christians who post here and those I know in real life as though their greatest fear is to fail in their attempts to "make it to heaven."

Why shouldn't it be? Narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

Why live a present life, which we know exists, in a manner prescribed by one of the thousands of religions – for which there is no assurance of truth or accuracy and no assurance that promised rewards or punishments are anything more than products of human imagination?

Do you mean "Why follow the truth when it seems easier to avoid it?" That's how I see this question. It is because I want to be at peace with God and maintain life in Christ.

I think most people reject the "gospel truth" because it requires more dedication than they want, or are able, to handle.

Those who claim to follow the bible need not be dedicated to obeying its commandments and instructions. All they seem to think necessary is to ask forgiveness and repent (even on their deathbed) to "make it to heaven."

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is a good example of a "last minute reprieve." It seems sincere repentance can do wonders even for a bad situation..

Repentance may have some value in the real world (perhaps even at "last minute"); however, it cannot be shown to have any effect in a hypothetical "afterlife."

One would have to wait for the "afterlife" before knowing for certain the effects of repentance. At that point it would be "shown"/known.

[Zzyzx]

.

Why live a present life, which we know exists, in a manner prescribed by one of the thousands of religions – for which there is no assurance of truth or accuracy and no assurance that promised rewards or punishments are anything more than products of human imagination?

Do you mean "Why follow the truth when it seems easier to avoid it?"

Okay, let's "follow the truth" regarding supernaturalism / religion. Which of the thousands of proposed "gods", if any, is real – and how can that truth be determined?

After choosing one of the proposed gods, how does one determine which, if any, of the tens of thousands of different versions of religion available offer truth?

It seems easiest to simply pick a "god" and a religion that is popular in one's culture and assume that all others are false. No truth-seeking required.

That's how I see this question. It is because I want to be at peace with God and maintain life in Christ.

That seems to indicate a decision favoring one of the popular gods (and perhaps one of the versions of religion) – and seems to indicate a decision regarding truth. Upon what evidence is such a position based?

Repentance may have some value in the real world (perhaps even at "last minute"); however, it cannot be shown to have any effect in a hypothetical "afterlife."

One would have to wait for the "afterlife" before knowing for certain the effects of repentance. At that point it would be "shown"/known.

Good business plan. Promise (or threaten) something "after you die" – and have no returning dissatisfied customers to call attention to false information.

[redo]

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This is my first time trying to reply to someone on this forum, so this is a test. I came to this forum some time back, but I don't believe I tried to post then, so we'll give it a try now.

I need to post a correction here.
That was most certainly not my first time posting on this forum. After looking around a little bit I discovered that I joined this forum in 2012 and had over 200 posts when I left.
Since that time a lot of things have happened in my life, and this forum was forgotten. I'm sorry that I didn't remember posting here, but I really didn't remember. That is the kind of genius you are dealing with here. I know you are scared.

I have joined other forums and never even posted. After reading for a while I just moved along, and that is what I thought I did here. Sorry about that.