Christian response to homosexual marriage?

[bjs]

Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?

I put this debate topic in this sub-forum because I’m not really interested in atheists’ opinions here, but I do wonder what Christians think.

On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous. I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

On the other hand, recent history has shown us that when gay marriage is legalized the right to oppose, or even abstain from involvement, is quickly lost. Opposing or abstaining from homosexual marriage is outlawed on the charge of discrimination. If gay marriage is legalized then we should expect, at the very minimum, that those who are morally opposed to homosexual action will still be required to act in support of homosexual actions if they wish to do business in their state.

I am unsure of the right approach. What do others Christians think?

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 97 by KCKID]

How do you derive from scripture that Jesus would oppose gay marriage?

How do you derive from scriptures that Jesus would support gay marriage ?

You didn't answer my question. Neither you nor I would know what Jesus would oppose/support and what He would not. However, you made the claim that you DO know what Jesus would oppose ...hence my question.

[no1special]

[Replying to post 98 by Danmark]

Christ would not oppose it and neither should true Christians. Your claim to the contrary is not supported. I see the same spirit defending those accused in the question Jesus asked, "He who is without sin, throw the first stone."

Oppose as in , to disagree or disapprove is not throwing stones. How many homosexual marriages are mentioned in the Bible ? Give me one example where homosexual behavior is even tolerated , let alone supported by God or Jesus . When the prostitute was caught in the act and was about to be stoned to death , Jesus intervened and saved her life but then He said , go and sin no more . Does that sound like He was supporting prostitution ?

[no1special]

[Replying to post 100 by KCKID]

You didn't answer my question. Neither you nor I would know what Jesus would oppose/support and what He would not. However, you made the claim that you DO know what Jesus would oppose ...hence my question.

Oppose as in to disagree with or disapprove of . Leviticus 20:13 and Genesis 19:4-5,12-13 talks about God's opinion of and attitude toward homosexual behavior . Mark 7:20-23 talks about Jesus's opinion of sexual immorality . Jesus will not support something He disagrees with or disapproves of .

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 100 by KCKID]

You didn't answer my question. Neither you nor I would know what Jesus would oppose/support and what He would not. However, you made the claim that you DO know what Jesus would oppose ...hence my question.

Oppose as in to disagree with or disapprove of . Leviticus 20:13 . . .

*Sigh* . . .I've been through this particular passage of scripture so many times elsewhere on this forum; however, please click on the following link which explains Leviticus 20:13 in just 8.28 minutes. Moreover, this particular video has been confirmed for accuracy by several Jewish scholars that I know ...including one on this very forum.

. . .and Genesis 19:4-5,12-13 talks about God's opinion of and attitude toward homosexual behavior.

The Bible story describing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah NOWHERE mentions homosexuality. It simply ain't there other than in the minds of those who have heard the lie that S&G were destroyed because of rampant homosexuality so many times that it's become a part of their mindset! The story alludes to the inhospitable manner in which the occupants of the cities 'welcome' strangers (and more than implies that such is common practice) by raping them to make sure that they don't return. But, I see nothing pertaining to homosexuality per se in the entire story. Even though I believe the entire event is just a fable, I challenge you to back up your claim that homosexuality had any part whatever in their destruction!

Mark 7:20-23 talks about Jesus's opinion of sexual immorality . Jesus will not support something He disagrees with or disapproves of .

Where does Jesus even ONCE state that homosexuality is the equivalent of 'sexual immorality'? In fact WHY is it automatically assumed by many Christians that sexual immorality MUST be referring to homosexuality?

[no1special]

[Replying to post 103 by KCKID]

The Bible story describing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah NOWHERE mentions homosexuality.

In Genesis 19:5 men from the city are surrounding Lot's house and are telling Lot to bring his male guests out so they can "know" them . What do you call men having sex with men ? Do not forget that God sent the angels to see if what He has heard about Sodom and Gomorrah was true and in the end God destroid both cities . What the men from the city had in mind had nothing to do with fertility . I watched the video ... NICE TRY .
PS You have not answered my question . How do you derive from scriptures that Jesus would support gay marriage ?

[no1special]

[Replying to post 103 by KCKID]

Where does Jesus even ONCE state that homosexuality is the equivalent of 'sexual immorality'?

Homosexuality is one of many forms of sexual immorality . God and Jesus agree on everything . If God opposes homosexual behavior , Jesus opposes homosexual behavior . Did Jesus really have to say it ? Would it make a difference ? NO , of course not , people would just find another way to try to say homosexuality is not condemned by God or Jesus or the Bible . In Matthew 19:4 Jesus said that in the beginning God made MALE and FEMALE and in Matthew 19:5 and Mark 10:7 Jesus said that man (male ) shall leave his father ( male ) and MOTHER ( female ) and shall cleave to his WIFE ( female ) . You still think He would support homosexual marriage ?

[no1special]

[Replying to post 103 by KCKID]

Even though I believe the entire event is just a fable,

It never fails , first is ( no the Bible does not say homosexuality is wrong , God or Jesus does not oppose it etc... ) and then , if the debate goes on long enough , comes the ( how do you know the Bible is true or , the Bible is a fable etc... ) . Talk about * SIGH * .

[Goat]

[Replying to post 98 by Danmark]

Christ would not oppose it and neither should true Christians. Your claim to the contrary is not supported. I see the same spirit defending those accused in the question Jesus asked, "He who is without sin, throw the first stone."

Oppose as in , to disagree or disapprove is not throwing stones. How many homosexual marriages are mentioned in the Bible ? Give me one example where homosexual behavior is even tolerated , let alone supported by God or Jesus . When the prostitute was caught in the act and was about to be stoned to death , Jesus intervened and saved her life but then He said , go and sin no more . Does that sound like He was supporting prostitution ?

Can you show where Jesus said anything at all about Gay marriage or not gay marriage? I am not talking about the mistranlations and out of context quotes about 'men laying with men' in Leviticus either.. but words specifically attributed to Jesus.

[KCKID]

The Bible story describing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah NOWHERE mentions homosexuality.

In Genesis 19:5 men from the city are surrounding Lot's house and are telling Lot to bring his male guests out so they can "know" them. What do you call men having sex with men?

In this case I call it for what it was …an intention to rape! You should take note that rape is forced sexual intercourse on another non-consenting person. To equate such a story with that of same-gender consenting adult intimacy indicates a level of ignorance that might well disqualify one from debating this topic. IF the story of S&G is true (which I very much doubt!) then it would be reasonable to say that the male inhabitants would be heterosexual. How else but heterosexual sexual relations with women would the cities have become populated with 'young and old' in the first place?!

A former boss of mine used to say, "head for thinking, feet for dancing."

Do not forget that God sent the angels to see if what He has heard about Sodom and Gomorrah was true and in the end God destroyed both cities.

Are you saying that this “all-knowing God� required the reports from two angels because He would not otherwise have known what was going on? You think that the popular story of the inhabitants of S&G and the intended rape of the angels was the reason God destroyed the cities? Read your Bible again. You will see that God had laid plans to destroy S&G BEFORE this alleged incident took place. WHERE is homosexuality given as the reason for God having made such a decision? Chapter and verse …please!

What the men from the city had in mind had nothing to do with fertility. I watched the video … NICE TRY.

???? I never said that what the men had in mind DID have anything to do with fertility. You’ve got your wires crossed. Keep up. That video was an explanation of Leviticus 20:13 …we’re now talking about Sodom and Gomorrah. I briefly explained what the men had in mind and that it was their way of intimidating and “de-masculinizing� male strangers to their cities. Strangers were not welcome and raping or threatening to rape strangers (especially on-masse!) was seen to be an effective method of dissuading 'intruders' from future encroaching on their territory. If you don’t know this and don’t know of other examples of rape=humiliation (during war-time, for instance, and the degrading of male prisoners) then I don’t think you have enough background to be effectively debating this topic. Have you ever wondered why normally heterosexual men rape other men in prison? While satisfying their sexual urges might well be a part of it it’s mainly a violent act intended to subjugate the other guy …possibly the most shameful thing that can happen to a male. Once male-raped you have more of a tendency to be under another's control and to 'play the game.'

A similar thing appears to have been in play in the S&G tale, in fact, Ezekiel 16 tells us:

…48"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.50"Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.…�

You WILL note that Ezekiel says NOTHING about homosexuality having been involved AT ALL in the destruction of the twin cities!

. . .I watched the video ... NICE TRY.

Again ???? The video explains Leviticus 20:13 and not the Sodom and Gomorrah story. And, again, I emphasize that the video explanation would be sufficient enough for most if not all Jewish scholars. So, it has nothing to do with “NICE TRY� but more to do with the truth . . .

I really do need to make a pertinent point. I’m not here to support or oppose heterosexuality or homosexuality. It’s absolutely NO BUSINESS of mine to approve or disapprove of who chooses to be intimate with whom. I really DON’T CARE and I must emphasize this! I’ve made the case many times on this forum that my intention is simply to expose the scriptural ignorance of most Christians when it comes to this particular topic. The term ‘people having been brainwashed’ might come across as being contrary to the forum rules but this IS what I believe has occurred here. The majority of Christians don't know their own holy book and are rather sponges that soak up the inaccuracies of scripture that they learn from others.

PS You have not answered my question. How do you derive from scriptures that Jesus would support gay marriage?

I’m really not interested in playing this game of whether or not Jesus would approve or not approve of gay marriage. Jesus, according to His alleged quotes - as taken down by His ever-present stenographer - was never reported to have even broached the subject. Jesus apparently said a bit about divorce and remarriage as being a ‘no-no’ between heterosexuals but NOTHING about homosexuality. What Jesus DID SAY about divorce and remarriage is, of course, all but ignored by Christians who would rather concentrate on what Jesus DID NOT say about homosexuality!

One might think that, due to this topic having become such a hot item within the present-day Christian Church, that Jesus would have said something about homosexuality. But, He didn’t. What more can I add?

[KCKID]

]Where does Jesus even ONCE state that homosexuality is the equivalent of 'sexual immorality'?

Homosexuality is one of many forms of sexual immorality.

In what way is homosexuality considered to be immoral when practiced by consenting adults? What is it about the practice that would make it 'immoral' as such? Because "God sez" . . .?

God and Jesus agree on everything.

What, even Psalm 137:9 ..."Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones" . . .? Do God and Jesus agree on that one?

There are many more. Or, do we pretend those kinds of passages don't really exist?

If God opposes homosexual behavior , Jesus opposes homosexual behavior . Did Jesus really have to say it?

Yes, I would say so. Besides, where in scripture does God oppose homosexual behavior? And, please don't say Leviticus. We've already dealt with that. More to the point ...why would he? Even if he does, doesn't God disapprove of pretty well EVERY human behavior? Seems to me that he does. Besides kowtowing to him is there ANYTHING that we humans do that is pleasing to him?

Would it make a difference ? NO , of course not , people would just find another way to try to say homosexuality is not condemned by God or Jesus or the Bible.

Have you never thought that people might say that homosexuality as we refer to it today (i.e. intimacy between two consenting adults) is NOT condemned by God or Jesus or the Bible simply because it isn't?

In Matthew 19:4 Jesus said that in the beginning God made MALE and FEMALE and in Matthew 19:5 and Mark 10:7 Jesus said that man (male ) shall leave his father ( male ) and MOTHER ( female ) and shall cleave to his WIFE (female). You still think He would support homosexual marriage?

That quote from Jesus has NOTHING to do with homosexuality but is merely Jesus' response to a question asked of Him about divorce. What YOU should perhaps be doing with that particular passage is instead aiming it at the countless number of Christians who sit in the pews of their local churches every week that are divorced and remarried RATHER than targeting gay people with it!