The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 105 by redo]

Happy to send you my story.

The thing is though, even though you searched while not believing, you can't have possibly prayed the sinner's prayer until you did believe, otherwise it would be an insincere prayer. Only once you have repented would you then be eligible for the Holy Spirit to enable you to understand scripture. Until then you would have had to have relied on other people's interpretations and arguments.

[YahDough]

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Why live a present life, which we know exists, in a manner prescribed by one of the thousands of religions – for which there is no assurance of truth or accuracy and no assurance that promised rewards or punishments are anything more than products of human imagination?

Do you mean "Why follow the truth when it seems easier to avoid it?"

Which of the thousands of proposed "gods", if any, is real

The GOD and Father of the Lord Jesus called the Christ.

– and how can that truth be determined?

By the grace of GOD through revelation, and sincere personal search.

After choosing one of the proposed gods, how does one determine which, if any, of the tens of thousands of different versions of religion available offer truth?

For a born-again Christian, it would be the job of the Holy Ghost to teach the right "version". The fact that there is not global unity in Christian thought/actions does not mean disagreements are not resolvable.

It seems easiest to simply pick a "god" and a religion that is popular in one's culture and assume that all others are false. No truth-seeking required.

Yes

That's how I see this question. It is because I want to be at peace with God and maintain life in Christ.

That seems to indicate a decision favoring one of the popular gods (and perhaps one of the versions of religion) – and seems to indicate a decision regarding truth. Upon what evidence is such a position based?

The "evidence" of many witnesses, past and present as well as the Holy Ghost Teacher of Truth.

Repentance may have some value in the real world (perhaps even at "last minute"); however, it cannot be shown to have any effect in a hypothetical "afterlife."

One would have to wait for the "afterlife" before knowing for certain the effects of repentance. At that point it would be "shown"/known.

Good business plan. Promise (or threaten) something "after you die" – and have no returning dissatisfied customers to call attention to false information.

That's the way a good "business plan" goes. One makes an informed decision/ investment and hopes for good results.

[Zzyzx]

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Why live a present life, which we know exists, in a manner prescribed by one of the thousands of religions – for which there is no assurance of truth or accuracy and no assurance that promised rewards or punishments are anything more than products of human imagination?

Do you mean "Why follow the truth when it seems easier to avoid it?"

Which of the thousands of proposed "gods", if any, is real

The GOD and Father of the Lord Jesus called the Christ.

With at least two thousand "gods" worshiped, feared, loved, venerated, promoted, proposed by humans there is at best a 0.0005 chance of that guess being correct.

– and how can that truth be determined?

By the grace of GOD through revelation, and sincere personal search.

What may appear to be real in a person's mind or imagination is NO assurance that it is actually real. "Personal search" indicates an individual matter – and although such testimonials and opinions may seem convincing in church, they have no merit in debate.

Claiming to have had a "revelation" or to have come to believe something through "sincere personal search" is a personal, subjective matter. Those who make such claims often point in opposite directions.

After choosing one of the proposed gods, how does one determine which, if any, of the tens of thousands of different versions of religion available offer truth?

For a born-again Christian, it would be the job of the Holy Ghost to teach the right "version".

Apparently the "Holy Ghost" is teaching very different "right versions" to various factions within Christianity.

The fact that there is not global unity in Christian thought/actions does not mean disagreements are not resolvable.

Good luck with that. Forty thousand sects and counting seems to indicate little likelihood of resolving differences.

It seems easiest to simply pick a "god" and a religion that is popular in one's culture and assume that all others are false. No truth-seeking required.

Yes

Thank you. That seem to be verified by considering distribution of world religions.

That's how I see this question. It is because I want to be at peace with God and maintain life in Christ.

That seems to indicate a decision favoring one of the popular gods (and perhaps one of the versions of religion) – and seems to indicate a decision regarding truth. Upon what evidence is such a position based?

The "evidence" of many witnesses, past and present as well as the Holy Ghost Teacher of Truth.

Where, exactly and precisely, can accounts by actual witnesses be found and how can their truth and accuracy be determined?

Repentance may have some value in the real world (perhaps even at "last minute"); however, it cannot be shown to have any effect in a hypothetical "afterlife."

One would have to wait for the "afterlife" before knowing for certain the effects of repentance. At that point it would be "shown"/known.

Good business plan. Promise (or threaten) something "after you die" – and have no returning dissatisfied customers to call attention to false information.

That's the way a good "business plan" goes. One makes an informed investment and hopes for a good return.

Another profitable, and often associated, business plan is "Create a felt need (convince people they need something) and offer to provide it in return for something."

My minister friends bristle a bit when I refer to their "flock" as customers, saying something like, "We prefer to refer to them as parishioners." I respond with "Call them whatever you like, but who provides income to the church?"

[redo]

[Replying to post 105 by redo]

Happy to send you my story.

The thing is though, even though you searched while not believing, you can't have possibly prayed the sinner's prayer until you did believe, otherwise it would be an insincere prayer. Only once you have repented would you then be eligible for the Holy Spirit to enable you to understand scripture. Until then you would have had to have relied on other people's interpretations and arguments.

Hey friend. I hope you don't mind me calling you friend. After reading your story I feel like I know you as much as any friend I have, except for family.
You have been around the block a time or two, and I do understand why you feel the way you do. I don't agree with you, but I do understand.

About this post, the truth is that when I first started believing that religion could be good for my life I did it without being able to believe that God actually existed. I knew several Christians who I really admired, and I saw what their faith in Christianity had done for them, and it looked like what they were doing would be good for me too.
So you can say I didn't start out with the Holy Spirit, and that would be correct because I didn't even really believe in God.
However since the Holy Spirit is God, he was in me even though I didn't recognize his presence there.
I don't know when I started understanding scripture, but when I first started my journey I hated reading the bible, because I disagreed with almost everything I read.
Now I have my own interpretation of scripture, and whether God has given it to me or not is up for debate, but there is no debating that I believe in god without any doubts at all.
At this point I have learned to place all my trust in God and not in me. If it is up to me to save myself it isn't going to happen. God is my hope and I stopped believing in people a long time ago.
If the bible teaches that God has made the way through Christ, why should we worry about word games. I have learned to rest in him, and use my own interpretation to understand the rest.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 112:

...
For a born-again Christian, it would be the job of the Holy Ghost to teach the right "version". The fact that there is not global unity in Christian thought/actions does not mean disagreements are not resolvable.
...

Then the Holy Ghost can't even keep his story straight.

Or it is, folks'll make their opinions and pride themselves on how don't it beat all, I'm the one among us the Holy Ghost told it right about!

[OnceConvinced]

Hey friend. I hope you don't mind me calling you friend. After reading your story I feel like I know you as much as any friend I have, except for family.

No problems. Always good to have another friend.

About this post, the truth is that when I first started believing that religion could be good for my life I did it without being able to believe that God actually existed. I knew several Christians who I really admired, and I saw what their faith in Christianity had done for them, and it looked like what they were doing would be good for me too.
So you can say I didn't start out with the Holy Spirit, and that would be correct because I didn't even really believe in God.
However since the Holy Spirit is God, he was in me even though I didn't recognize his presence there.
I don't know when I started understanding scripture, but when I first started my journey I hated reading the bible, because I disagreed with almost everything I read.
Now I have my own interpretation of scripture, and whether God has given it to me or not is up for debate, but there is no debating that I believe in god without any doubts at all.
At this point I have learned to place all my trust in God and not in me. If it is up to me to save myself it isn't going to happen. God is my hope and I stopped believing in people a long time ago.
If the bible teaches that God has made the way through Christ, why should we worry about word games. I have learned to rest in him, and use my own interpretation to understand the rest.

Thanks for clarifying. I think your story is probably typical of many. They see something good and they want a piece of it. So they investigate further. I guess that's why testimonies can be a powerful thing. You think "Hey, if that person can get all that through their religion, perhaps I can too?"

Just this last Sunday I was at a family funeral. My Uncle (the one in my story who I mentioned had cancer) was there, so I took the opportunity to sit down and talk to him. May be my last chance. I told him what a good mentor he was all those years ago and how I had fond memories of the prayer meetings and the outreaches we were involved in. He said to me "I hear you have some problems with it all now? (Christianity)" And I said "Yes," but didn't go into details. He then said "Well I'm even more convinced than ever!" He said that despite the fact he was dying of cancer and had for a short while believed he was healed by God only to find the cancer was back again.

For many people they might look at my uncle and say "Wow, there's a man whose faith has given him the strength to face his own death and he still remains faithful even though some may think God has failed him. But for me... I hate to say it, but all it showed me was how delusional some people can be. That some people are so convinced about their beliefs and fantasies that no matter what, they continue to believe. I felt like saying to him "The people who strap bombs to their bodies and blow other people up were also entirely convinced. So are the people that fly aircrafts into buildings". Instead I just I smiled and said "I'm glad you have that faith within you do deal with your situation you are in"

But anyway, going off track a bit there...

I can see that looking at someone's faith and thinking "I want what they've got" can definitely be a legitimate reason for seeking out religion. But there must have to be some belief there already. The belief that there is something in it. That there must be some truth there. For someone like myself I can no longer see it that way. I can see a definite placebo affect. I can see what you can achieve through positive thinking, but not much else.

[redo]

My Uncle (the one in my story who I mentioned had cancer) was there, so I took the opportunity to sit down and talk to him. May be my last chance. I told him what a good mentor he was all those years ago and how I had fond memories of the prayer meetings and the outreaches we were involved in.

It is good that you can show compassion for your uncle and not make an issue of things that can’t be changed. The way you treated him says some good things about you.

He said to me "I hear you have some problems with it all now? (Christianity)" And I said "Yes," but didn't go into details. He then said "Well I'm even more convinced than ever!" He said that despite the fact he was dying of cancer and had for a short while believed he was healed by God only to find the cancer was back again.

I’m 64 years old and have learned over the years that I still make mistakes. When bad things happen it doesn’t affect my faith either, and I suppose that is how your uncle feels. In this world bad things happen to good people. Our faith in a better place helps us accept the disappoints that are absolutely going to come before we leave this world.

For many people they might look at my uncle and say "Wow, there's a man whose faith has given him the strength to face his own death and he still remains faithful even though some may think God has failed him. But for me... I hate to say it, but all it showed me was how delusional some people can be. That some people are so convinced about their beliefs and fantasies that no matter what, they continue to believe.

But I think you are delusional believing that science has all the answers you need. There are so many questions that science can’t explain, and I truly can’t understand why unbelievers can’t accept the kind of faith your uncle has. You have to live by faith in science, and your uncle if comforted living by faith in God.

I felt like saying to him "The people who strap bombs to their bodies and blow other people up were also entirely convinced. So are the people that fly aircrafts into buildings". Instead I just I smiled and said "I'm glad you have that faith within you do deal with your situation you are in"

I really like your compassion, and I can’t stand to be around idiots who have to be know-it-all even when it hurts someone. You are making yourself look really good. You have a heart.

I can see that looking at someone's faith and thinking "I want what they've got" can definitely be a legitimate reason for seeking out religion.

When I was attracted to religion it wasn’t because I was looking at somebody’s faith. I was looking at how much better their lives were than mine. Religion looked like it was working, so I thought it might work for me. Being religious doesn’t mean you believe in God, it just means you believe that you can benefit by following that lifestyle.
If you get involved in the wrong religion it absolutely can be a bad thing, but Christianity has been really good for me. However even a Christian church can be bad if it is religion centered, and not God centered.

But there must have to be some belief there already. The belief that there is something in it. That there must be some truth there. For someone like myself I can no longer see it that way. I can see a definite placebo affect. I can see what you can achieve through positive thinking, but not much else.

As hard as it might be for you to believe, when I first got involved in religion I wasn’t able to believe in God. It took me a long time to believe, but when I finally did, nothing could ever take it away, even the cancer that your uncle is faced with.

[Zzyzx]

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I’m 64 years old and have learned over the years that I still make mistakes.

From the vantage point of more than a decade older I advise that mistake-making does not cease. However, it can be minimized and we can avoid repeating mistakes. No gods required.

When bad things happen it doesn’t affect my faith either

When bad (or good) things happen it doesn't affect my non-faith either. I take responsibility for all decisions I make and deal with whatever circumstances arise to the best of my ability – without any need for "faith" or belief in any of the proposed "gods."

But I think you are delusional believing that science has all the answers you need.

Many of us, perhaps all or most, realize that science produces results – such as modern medicine, based on scientific study, that effectively treats or cures many (not all) illnesses and injuries – and such as modern technology that makes possible the lifestyle we enjoy.

What does religion produce that is comparable? Faith "healing?" Good feelings (which can be produced just as well with various substances – legal and illegal)?

There are so many questions that science can’t explain,

To what unexplained questions does this refer? What answers should science provide that it does not?

and I truly can’t understand why unbelievers can’t accept the kind of faith your uncle has.

Many Non-Believers fully accept the "faith" of said uncle – FOR HIM if it makes him feel better – but not for ourselves (preferring reality, even if it is not to our liking).

You have to live by faith in science, and your uncle if comforted living by faith in God.

If one emphasizes being "comforted", religion should be appealing.

You are making yourself look really good. You have a heart.

I doubt that "looking good" is of interest to OC. Is it uncommon or surprising for a Non-Believer to be compassionate? Can Believers be shown to be more compassionate than Non-Believers?

If you get involved in the wrong religion it absolutely can be a bad thing, but Christianity has been really good for me. However even a Christian church can be bad if it is religion centered, and not God centered.

Is it just luck that some people were raised in or choose the right Christian church?

Is there a list somewhere of the God centered churches?

As hard as it might be for you to believe, when I first got involved in religion I wasn’t able to believe in God. It took me a long time to believe,

How, exactly, does one convince themselves to believe what they do not believe?

[OnceConvinced]

It is good that you can show compassion for your uncle and not make an issue of things that can’t be changed. The way you treated him says some good things about you.

Thanks. When it comes to family and friends I try to tread carefully as I do not want to upset or offend.

On the Internet though, when it comes to strangers, it's a different matter all together.

But I think you are delusional believing that science has all the answers you need. There are so many questions that science can’t explain, and I truly can’t understand why unbelievers can’t accept the kind of faith your uncle has. You have to live by faith in science, and your uncle if comforted living by faith in God.

Sure, science does not have all the answer yet, but there is so much it has answered that now takes away the need for "Goddidit". People once believed that natural disasters, diseases and viruses and many other things were caused by Gods. We now know they aren't. The trend is that things are being proven as having natural causes, while the supernatural is rapidly decreasing. I see no reason why that trend won't continue.

The other thing is too, I am seeing that things like psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all these other things are being exposed as fraudulent and as tricks. Things I once believed were real supernatural things have now been exposed. Further reasons why lean towards Scientific explanations.

Faith to me now, seems like a weakness. It seems to me like turning your brain off and just accepting certain things no matter how crazy they may seem.

I really like your compassion, and I can’t stand to be around idiots who have to be know-it-all even when it hurts someone. You are making yourself look really good. You have a heart.

Oh I can be a know-it-all some times and piss people off. It's something I am trying to work on at least in my personal life.

As hard as it might be for you to believe, when I first got involved in religion I wasn’t able to believe in God. It took me a long time to believe, but when I finally did, nothing could ever take it away, even the cancer that your uncle is faced with.

About a year before I started to lose my faith I said to a guy in church (sort of as a testimony) that "God has done so many things in my life and I have seen so much of work in it, that I could never possibly doubt him." I said it sincerely too. I now see those as my "famous last words" when it came to my faith.

[redo]

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But I think you are delusional believing that science has all the answers you need.

Many of us, perhaps all or most, realize that science produces results – such as modern medicine, based on scientific study, that effectively treats or cures many (not all) illnesses and injuries – and such as modern technology that makes possible the lifestyle we enjoy.
What does religion produce that is comparable? Faith "healing?" Good feelings (which can be produced just as well with various substances – legal and illegal)?

Religion has produced changed lives that actually saved lives. I am one of the people who were changed by adding religion into my life. I’m glad to be able to say that for me the changes were good, but I also realize that a lot of people become a part of some religions that cause changes that are bad.
Regardless of what you believe, the world is a better place because of the good changes religion has made in normal people.

There are so many questions that science can’t explain,

To what unexplained questions does this refer? What answers should science provide that it does not?

Science doesn't know what dark matter and dark energy is. The universe is huge and there are so many questions that can’t be explained.
For that matter, how do we even exist?
How did all we see in the universe come from nothing?
Science doesn't know how to create life.
How to bring life back into a body after life has gone out of it.
The questions we don’t know about creation are too many to ask them all.

You are making yourself look really good. You have a heart.

I doubt that "looking good" is of interest to OC. Is it uncommon or surprising for a Non-Believer to be compassionate? Can Believers be shown to be more compassionate than Non-Believers?

He is making himself look like a man of compassion, and that is a very good thing worth mentioning.
It doesn’t matter who did it, being told that something good we did was noticed is appreciated by a lot of us. So I mentioned it.

If you get involved in the wrong religion it absolutely can be a bad thing, but Christianity has been really good for me. However even a Christian church can be bad if it is religion centered, and not God centered.

Is it just luck that some people were raised in or choose the right Christian church?
Is there a list somewhere of the God centered churches?

None that I know of. I sure went to a lot of churches before I found one that worked for me. Perhaps it is our responsibility to recognize when things being taught are dangerous. The churches that are good leave enough evidence of the good they are doing behind to make them recognizable.

As hard as it might be for you to believe, when I first got involved in religion I wasn’t able to believe in God. It took me a long time to believe,

How, exactly, does one convince themselves to believe what they do not believe?

I don’t know how a person could do that, because I sure couldn't. When I didn't believe in God I knew it, and I think other people close to me knew it too. The experiences I have had over my lifetime have given me the ability to believe in God. If I had your experiences in life I would probably believe just like you do. I don’t know.