The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[Zzyzx]

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Many of us, perhaps all or most, realize that science produces results – such as modern medicine, based on scientific study, that effectively treats or cures many (not all) illnesses and injuries – and such as modern technology that makes possible the lifestyle we enjoy.

What does religion produce that is comparable? Faith "healing?" Good feelings (which can be produced just as well with various substances – legal and illegal)?

Religion has produced changed lives that actually saved lives.

Many ideologies have changed lives – positively or negatively – religion included. Sometimes religion saves lives, other times it takes lives.

Does the "changed lives" equal the benefits of modern medicine, nutrition / agriculture / food supply, transportation, communication, etc directly attributable to science?

I am one of the people who were changed by adding religion into my life.

Glad to hear that

I’m glad to be able to say that for me the changes were good, but I also realize that a lot of people become a part of some religions that cause changes that are bad.

I have been closely associated with two women whose lives were VERY negatively affected by religion. One was born into a polygamous Mormon cult (FLDS) and the other was made a concubine from age thirteen to seventeen by a Christian youth pastor. Both were heavily damaged.

Regardless of what you believe, the world is a better place because of the good changes religion has made in normal people.

Does the positive effect of religion outweigh the negative – overall?

Considering current events in the Middle East (and to a small extent Europe and US), can the effect of religion be said to make the world a better place?

What answers should science provide that it does not?

Science doesn't know what dark matter and dark energy is.

So what? No one (except possibly some Theists) claims to have all the answers – and their answer is "Goddidit" – without substantiation.

The universe is huge and there are so many questions that can’t be explained.

Thus, it behooves us to keep seeking answers

Shall we stop looking for valid answers and just say "It's a miracle"?

For that matter, how do we even exist?

Breathe air, drink water, eat food, reproduce – repeat every generation.

How did all we see in the universe come from nothing?

No one knows – and may never know. The absence of such knowledge makes absolutely no difference in how I conduct my life.

Science doesn't know how to create life.

Theism doesn't know how to create life either – but proposes that an invisible, undetectable, supernatural entity (a favorite one of thousands promoted by humans) was responsible. However, evidence is lacking.

How to bring life back into a body after life has gone out of it.

Agreed, death seem irreversible – except for claims in ancient tales

The questions we don’t know about creation are too many to ask them all.

Again, lack of such knowledge does not affect my life in any way.

Is it just luck that some people were raised in or choose the right Christian church?
Is there a list somewhere of the God centered churches?

None that I know of. I sure went to a lot of churches before I found one that worked for me. Perhaps it is our responsibility to recognize when things being taught are dangerous.

Not many of the Christians I know personally have indicated making a determined search for a church that did not teach dangerous things. Most seem to stay in or close to the ones of their childhood.

The churches that are good leave enough evidence of the good they are doing behind to make them recognizable.

Much of the evidence of churches is the houses (or palaces) of worship they build and the wealth they accumulate – instead of "clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and helping the less fortunate" (which often seems like a minor interest or an afterthought).

How, exactly, does one convince themselves to believe what they do not believe?

I don’t know how a person could do that, because I sure couldn't. When I didn't believe in God I knew it, and I think other people close to me knew it too. The experiences I have had over my lifetime have given me the ability to believe in God. If I had your experiences in life I would probably believe just like you do. I don’t know.

Yes, we are all products of our experiences AND our responses to those experiences. It is highly individualistic.

Perhaps others with experiences similar to mine could have become religious – allowing that genetic makeup also influences decisions.

[redo]

Thanks. When it comes to family and friends I try to tread carefully as I do not want to upset or offend. On the Internet though, when it comes to strangers, it's a different matter all together.

I see that wink, but don’t think for one moment that I was fooled by your sweetness to your uncle. You remind me too much of me. When I make a little dry humor joke like that I usually don’t put the smiley face, and a lot of times people get offended. I tried to put a smiley this time but it went to the end of the post, so it didn't work. I'm a little bit of a joker sometimes, Let that be a warning.

Sure, science does not have all the answer yet, but there is so much it has answered that now takes away the need for "Goddidit". People once believed that natural disasters, diseases and viruses and many other things were caused by Gods. We now know they aren't. The trend is that things are being proven as having natural causes, while the supernatural is rapidly decreasing. I see no reason why that trend won't continue.
The other thing is too, I am seeing that things like psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all these other things are being exposed as fraudulent and as tricks. Things I once believed were real supernatural things have now been exposed. Further reasons why lean towards Scientific explanations.
Faith to me now, seems like a weakness. It seems to me like turning your brain off and just accepting certain things no matter how crazy they may seem.

I’m just the opposite now. It matters a lot to me that it takes as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God. Those nagging questions that can’t be answered are never forgotten by me. The science can take us back to a time when there was nothing. I have to create the universe out of nothing to make sense of things, and God does that for me. Science can’t create life, but God can. It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.
The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed doesn’t cause me to forget the questions that can’t be answered by science.
I have lived long enough that I don’t put too much trust in any person. I sure don’t set them up like gods thinking mankind can give me all the answers I need.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 122:

...
Science can’t create life, but God can.

Granted, I ain't seeing a lot of science babies, but I get a feeling we'll all run out of popcorn 'fore you show there's a single God baby.

...
The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed...

I contrast that with what ya wrote right before it...

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

"Now don't you be a-tellin' me no scams, just tell me Goddidit and I'll be comfortable as a tick on a hound."

It seems when incredulity wins, science loses.

[Zzyzx]

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When I make a little dry humor joke like that I usually don’t put the smiley face, and a lot of times people get offended.

Humor is difficult to put across well in this venue (emoticons don't help much) – and is usually inappropriate in serious debate.

It matters a lot to me that it takes as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God.

It takes no "faith" to go with what works in the real world – and there is no need to "believe in science." We all accept the benefits provided by science (modern medicine, transportation, food production and preservation, communication, etc) without any need for "belief."

A great advantage of science (systematic study of nature) is that rather than requiring belief it encourages "if in doubt, check it out" (verify based on evidence). The opposite is characteristic of religions – which require "belief without evidence" and discourage challenge of "scriptures" and dogma.

Those nagging questions that can’t be answered are never forgotten by me.

Unanswered questions of importance should not be forgotten, but should be studied by anyone interested to develop understandings that work in the real world we inhabit.

Science can’t create life, but God can.

Correction: God is proposed or imagined by many to have created life. However, there is no evidence that any gods were involved – only conjecture, opinion, dogma, and ancient unverifiable tales.

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

That has been the function of gods and religion for thousands of years – provide "answers" for the unknown. Until humans learned the causes of disease they proposed "Goddidit" – and applied the same to "explaining" the occurrence of storms, droughts, floods, volcanoes, etc.

Thus, gods served a useful purpose

The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed doesn’t cause me to forget the questions that can’t be answered by science.

Can it be demonstrated that any of the tens of thousands of religions are anything more than scams?

I have lived long enough that I don’t put too much trust in any person. I sure don’t set them up like gods thinking mankind can give me all the answers I need.

Everything people "know" about gods they learned from other people (or made up themselves – often called "revelations" or dreams or personal mental episodes.

Why trust unidentified ancient writers whose essays about gods cannot be shown to be truthful or accurate (or anything more than products of human imagination)? Why trust the priest class who have vested interest in promoting ideas based on such ancient writings?

[redo]

From Post 122:

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

"Now don't you be a-tellin' me no scams, just tell me Goddidit and I'll be comfortable as a tick on a hound."

It seems when incredulity wins, science loses.

Now Joey that looked like some dry humor there, didn't zz tell you that such a thing is inappropriate in a serious debate.
Just joking, don't know what made me do it.

[GISMYS]

[Replying to post 121 by Zzyzx]

Knowledge of God is part of human DNA From early man to now anyplace on earth man knows there is God. Romans 1:18 to 32 tells us that truth. Little sin loving man trys to hope and pretend that God is not real because they fear their final judgmet day. What about you?

[redo]

I'm trying to figure out this thing and give quotes to the correct person. I think I messed up a few times with my other replies.

The universe is huge and there are so many questions that can’t be explained.

Thus, it behooves us to keep seeking answers

Shall we stop looking for valid answers and just say "It's a miracle"?

We should look at every possibility and question why. When you rule out creation and won't consider the possibility of a creator you aren't being honest in your search for answers.

How did all we see in the universe come from nothing?

No one knows – and may never know. The absence of such knowledge makes absolutely no difference in how I conduct my life.

I agree with you, what ever a person decides concerning creation shouldn't change their character.
However your honesty in your search for answers about creation says a lot to me about your character.
It take a man to acknowledge every possibility and have good reasons for ruling out one or the other.
It takes wisdom to understand why other people might disagree with the answers we come up with, and honor to not call them stupid for disagreeing.

[Zzyzx]

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Knowledge of God is part of human DNA From early man to now anyplace on earth man knows there is God. Romans 1:18 to 32 tells us that truth.

Yes, humans worldwide tend to speculate about invisible, undetectable "gods" – thousands of them and tens of thousands of religions – all claiming TRUTH for themselves and usually demeaning the beliefs or convictions of others. Evidence is lacking to support those speculations and opinions. So what?

Pick one of the gods to worship, with a 0.0005 chance of guessing the right one -- and believe that you have chosen wisely?

Little sin loving man trys to hope and pretend that God is not real because they fear their final judgmet day.

Those of us who have no fear of a hypothetical "judgment day" leave that fearfulness to those who pretend that gods exist and who propose that rituals and beliefs will "save" them.

What about you?

I live, and have lived, a long, satisfying, fulfilling, contented and somewhat blissful life and I have no fear of death. Thus, there is no need for any "hope" for a hypothetical "afterlife" with the unverifiable promises of "better things" (or threats of punishment for not worshiping gods).

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 125:

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

"Now don't you be a-tellin' me no scams, just tell me Goddidit and I'll be comfortable as a tick on a hound."

It seems when incredulity wins, science loses.

Now Joey that looked like some dry humor there, didn't zz tell you that such a thing is inappropriate in a serious debate.

It can't help but be funny when folks declare "The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed" then goes on to say "It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved."

"What's Joey doing milking the goat so late?"

"God did him some creating!"

Just joking, don't know what made me do it.

Let's have Incredulity for 500, Alex.


You ostensibly replace "I don't know" with belief in an entity that can't be shown to exist.

[GISMYS]

[Replying to post 129 by JoeyKnothead]

ROFL! So many say they don't believe and they post on christian debate boards just to tell the world! lol! SURE!!! SURE!!!