Are Christians Closed-Minded?

[rookiebatman]

I was raised in a Christian family, and I was a committed Christian for all of my young life, as was my older brother (he still is). One day when I was in high school, I was reading something about Christianity that troubled me, so I walked into my brother's room and asked him if we, as Christians, were (or should be) closed-minded. He thought about it for a moment and said, "yes."

If you are a Christian, do you believe (without any positive or negative value judgment for the moment) that you are closed-minded?

Jesus said, "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believed." As a mirror-image to my other thread about whether skepticism is a sin, do you believe that being closed to other possibilities (other than God existing and Jesus being his risen son) is virtuous?

If you are a former Christian, do you believe that you were closed-minded while you were a Christian, and if so, do you believe that your leaving the church was a direct result of you becoming open-minded?

[rookiebatman]

Do you think that God does not pursue us? In the Old Testament, how many times did he say to his people, "I will be your God, and you will be my people." Is that not wanting to be with us?

I'm not disagreeing that the promise was made, what I'm trying to get to is whether he's actually keeping the promise. Whether there's real, actual distinction between someone who has a relationship with God and someone who's just imagining it. You seem to suggest that the existence of the promise in itself is evidence that the promise has been kept. Might it therefore be possible that, because you assume this promise is true before any evidence has come in, you just further assume that any good feeling or positive coincidence must have come directly from God, and is therefore a sign of his personal relationship with you?

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't agree. People who don't talk have relationships.

If you sent letters to George Clooney every day, and never received a letter back, then you wouldn't have a relationship with George Clooney, even if you felt like he was communicating with you in your heart and through your circumstances.

Really what we need isn't a mouth, but ears to listen.

So, if a person sincerely listens to God and doesn't hear anything, what does that mean?

It isn't like I pray to God and I am happy the whole day long, totally in an unrealistic state of mind or being. God has proven himself faithful, over and over again in my life. Can I somehow prove to you that it was God, so that you without a shadow of a doubt know? Probably not. There isn't anything I am going to say, that you won't relinquish to chance. But I know Rookie, I know without a shadow of doubt, that it is God who fills my heart with so much love, I cannot hold it in. I know that it is God who has helped my neighbor and I get together. She was crying because she couldn't keep her child, and 15 minutes later I was in the kitchen of a lady crying who couldn't have a child. He has answered so many prayers, and helped me through so many trying times.

That's very nice, I'm happy for you, but what about all the millions of people in other religions who have completely comparable stories? You believes all of their gods are false, so they must just be imagining it, right?

Or, to approach it from a different angle, if I said that I had a relationship with the allfather Odin, that I talk to him and he replies to me in my heart (and that's how I know I have a real relationship with him), what would you think about that? Would you think that was a satisfactory reason for me to not consider other religions, or would you still encourage me to consider whether your religion might be more true?

Not sure! Does he work in your life? Does he answer prayer? Is he faithful?

For the purpose of illustration, all of the above (I'm sure there are people who sincerely do believe exactly that).

I think of Elijah and another tribe. They were deciding which God was more powerful. So, the one tribe did a dance, and try and yell as much as they could, their God would not start a fire. Then Elijah, by himself, prayed to God and the fire started.

And yet, when atheists ask for just exactly this very same type of proof, Christians say, "how dare you try to test God? You just need to have faith!"

Sure there is! We cannot be connected to His nourishment, and not thrive. In all situations, he gives us strength. In him there is no fear, because his perfect love drives out fear. In him, we have hope, and we are not consumed by the worries of this world.

So, if I know someone who sincerely believes they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but they are consumed by fear and the worries of this world, what does that mean?

[Zzyzx]

.

I talk to him much like I am right now with you. He hears my pleas, prayers and requests, and answers them. More importantly, He has deposited part of himself, within my very soul. This Spirit that dwells in me, intercedes for me, when I personally cannot do it.

When people "really believe" it does not make any difference if God exists or not. They derive benefits within themselves " in their mind and their emotions " even if they just imagine they are being helped.

Elsewhere that can be known as "Power of positive thinking" or "Placebo effect" " or as Henry Ford famously said, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't " you're right. I would say "probably right."

Some people seem to need or want there to be outside influence (often known as gods) and others do not. Believers often have difficulty accepting or admitting that Non-Believers accomplish the same or similar things without help " often claiming that God is influencing Non-Believers secretly.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 80 by Peds nurse]

But you specifically are not the chosen people he made that promise to. That was specific to the twelve tribes of Israel. You are not part of the covenant. Nor are you his Chosen children. You are just some of his children the ones he did not choose.

[Peds nurse]

Do you think that God does not pursue us? In the Old Testament, how many times did he say to his people, "I will be your God, and you will be my people." Is that not wanting to be with us?

I'm not disagreeing that the promise was made, what I'm trying to get to is whether he's actually keeping the promise. Whether there's real, actual distinction between someone who has a relationship with God and someone who's just imagining it. You seem to suggest that the existence of the promise in itself is evidence that the promise has been kept. Might it therefore be possible that, because you assume this promise is true before any evidence has come in, you just further assume that any good feeling or positive coincidence must have come directly from God, and is therefore a sign of his personal relationship with you?

How are you going to measure whether or not God keeps his promises? I am sure there is a distinction between someone who has a relationship with God, and those who just pretend to. All you need to prove that point, is go to church. I am suggesting that I have EXPERIENCED his promises. Remember, I said that you could just chalk it all up to chance? How can you validate my experiences as not being from God? All good things come from God.

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't agree. People who don't talk have relationships.

="Rookiebatman"If you sent letters to George Clooney every day, and never received a letter back, then you wouldn't have a relationship with George Clooney, even if you felt like he was communicating with you in your heart and through your circumstances.

George Clooney isn't God (but he would be mighty fine looking if he was). God can communicate through anything and everything. It's like you are trying to put the entire universe in a matchbox.

Really what we need isn't a mouth, but ears to listen.

So, if a person sincerely listens to God and doesn't hear anything, what does that mean?

If you sincerely listen to God, he will not disappoint.

It isn't like I pray to God and I am happy the whole day long, totally in an unrealistic state of mind or being. God has proven himself faithful, over and over again in my life. Can I somehow prove to you that it was God, so that you without a shadow of a doubt know? Probably not. There isn't anything I am going to say, that you won't relinquish to chance. But I know Rookie, I know without a shadow of doubt, that it is God who fills my heart with so much love, I cannot hold it in. I know that it is God who has helped my neighbor and I get together. She was crying because she couldn't keep her child, and 15 minutes later I was in the kitchen of a lady crying who couldn't have a child. He has answered so many prayers, and helped me through so many trying times.

That's very nice, I'm happy for you, but what about all the millions of people in other religions who have completely comparable stories? You believes all of their gods are false, so they must just be imagining it, right?

I am only one person, and I cannot tell you what other people think, or why or who their God's are. Things happen to those who believe, and those who don't. It isn't anything new.

Or, to approach it from a different angle, if I said that I had a relationship with the allfather Odin, that I talk to him and he replies to me in my heart (and that's how I know I have a real relationship with him), what would you think about that? Would you think that was a satisfactory reason for me to not consider other religions, or would you still encourage me to consider whether your religion might be more true?

Not sure! Does he work in your life? Does he answer prayer? Is he faithful?

For the purpose of illustration, all of the above (I'm sure there are people who sincerely do believe exactly that).

I think of Elijah and another tribe. They were deciding which God was more powerful. So, the one tribe did a dance, and try and yell as much as they could, their God would not start a fire. Then Elijah, by himself, prayed to God and the fire started.

And yet, when atheists ask for just exactly this very same type of proof, Christians say, "how dare you try to test God? You just need to have faith!"

Didn't you say that you grew up in a Christian home? Why don't you know about the things I am telling you? How is what I'm saying any different than what you grew up hearing?

Sure there is! We cannot be connected to His nourishment, and not thrive. In all situations, he gives us strength. In him there is no fear, because his perfect love drives out fear. In him, we have hope, and we are not consumed by the worries of this world.

So, if I know someone who sincerely believes they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but they are consumed by fear and the worries of this world, what does that mean?

It probably means that they are human. Why is it that most of the people on here are so black and white? Our faith wavers at times, worry creeps in, and christians lie. We believe in the power of God, but sometimes we fall down. When we are down, we know that our faults will not consume us.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 83 by DanieltheDragon]


See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

[rookiebatman]

How are you going to measure whether or not God keeps his promises?

How are you going to claim that God does keep his promises if you acknowledge that it can't be measured?

I am suggesting that I have EXPERIENCED his promises.

I am suggesting to you that sincerely believing you experienced his promises doesn't mean that God actually exists, just as you would agree that a Muslim sincerely believing that they experienced Allah's promises doesn't mean that Allah really exists.

How can you validate my experiences as not being from God?

I think the point I already raised that people of other religions (or none at all) have similar experiences is a good start.

I am only one person, and I cannot tell you what other people think, or why or who their God's are. Things happen to those who believe, and those who don't. It isn't anything new.

What I'm suggesting is, if people of two disparate religions both have equal beliefs about the veracity of their religion, and they both get equal results, couldn't it be possible that the reason one person isn't getting superior results to the other is because both of their beliefs are equally false?

All good things come from God.

Is that a reason you believe in God, or do you believe that because you believe in God? Is it effect or cause? Or both?

If you sincerely listen to God, he will not disappoint.

I affirm to you here and now, that I sincerely listened to God for 25 years, and he did disappoint.

So, if I know someone who sincerely believes they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but they are consumed by fear and the worries of this world, what does that mean?

It probably means that they are human. Why is it that most of the people on here are so black and white? Our faith wavers at times, worry creeps in, and christians lie. We believe in the power of God, but sometimes we fall down. When we are down, we know that our faults will not consume us.

You said yourself, "we cannot be connected to His nourishment, and not thrive." Now you're saying that if saying is connected to his nourishment and doesn't thrive, that's just part of being human. What you're essentially saying is, if we see "fruit" of our relationship with God, then that's evidence that it's true, but if we don't see fruit, then that's not evidence that it's false. Can you understand how I might be slightly incredulous about that? To boil it down to simple terms, it would be like if you said, "all you have to do to prove God exists is flip a coin. If it comes up heads, you know he's real." Then, if I flip it and it comes up tails, you say, "that doesn't mean anything, just flip it again." For a position to be rational, you can't just accept the positive evidence and ignore the negative.

Didn't you say that you grew up in a Christian home? Why don't you know about the things I am telling you? How is what I'm saying any different than what you grew up hearing?

It's not even a little bit different from what I grew up hearing. I'm just trying to explain to you why I believe that what I grew up hearing is false.

[Peds nurse]

.

I talk to him much like I am right now with you. He hears my pleas, prayers and requests, and answers them. More importantly, He has deposited part of himself, within my very soul. This Spirit that dwells in me, intercedes for me, when I personally cannot do it.

When people "really believe" it does not make any difference if God exists or not. They derive benefits within themselves " in their mind and their emotions " even if they just imagine they are being helped.

I think, actually I am positive, that you cannot prove your statement to be true. I am wondering if everyone might have it a little backward. God, showed me who he was first. I was not sold as I am now. But over and over again, everything he promised, he has fulfilled. If I was to say that my husband loves me, because he shows me he does, no one would really argue. God loves me, because he shows me he does....and we have unbelief. Why? How can you who don't believe, have authority over those of us who do? Is it because God does not talk to you? He cannot talk to you because you choose not to hear Him.

Elsewhere that can be known as "Power of positive thinking" or "Placebo effect" " or as Henry Ford famously said, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't " you're right. I would say "probably right."

Or....It CAN be God, loving me as he says he does....

Some people seem to need or want there to be outside influence (often known as gods) and others do not. Believers often have difficulty accepting or admitting that Non-Believers accomplish the same or similar things without help " often claiming that God is influencing Non-Believers secretly.

And some, have experienced His love in such a way, that they love more passionately than ever thought possible. Can non believers love...Yes!! Can wonderful things happen to unbelievers....Yes! Can unbelievers encourage each other, and do wonderful things in this world....Yes! We all experience the same physical things in this world....but we do not lose hope. Death comes to us all....its where you will be after that changes your perspectives here on earth now.

[rookiebatman]

How can you who don't believe, have authority over those of us who do? Is it because God does not talk to you? He cannot talk to you because you choose not to hear Him.

He didn't talk to me when I did choose to hear him (for 25 years).

[Peds nurse]

How are you going to measure whether or not God keeps his promises?

How are you going to claim that God does keep his promises if you acknowledge that it can't be measured?

Tell me what His promises are?

I am suggesting that I have EXPERIENCED his promises.

I am suggesting to you that sincerely believing you experienced his promises doesn't mean that God actually exists, just as you would agree that a Muslim sincerely believing that they experienced Allah's promises doesn't mean that Allah really exists.

Let us use that same thinking elsewhere. Sincerely believing you experienced the best vacation of your life in Florida, doesn't mean that Florida actually exists, just as you would agree that a native Californian sincerely believes that they experienced the best vacation in Maine, does not mean that Maine exists.

You cannot discredit peoples experiences of truth.

How can you validate my experiences as not being from God?

I think the point I already raised that people of other religions (or none at all) have similar experiences is a good start.

I am only one person, and I cannot tell you what other people think, or why or who their God's are. Things happen to those who believe, and those who don't. It isn't anything new.

What I'm suggesting is, if people of two disparate religions both have equal beliefs about the veracity of their religion, and they both get equal results, couldn't it be possible that the reason one person isn't getting superior results to the other is because both of their beliefs are equally false?

How do you know they get equal results? Do you see Muslim missionaries in the US? Are you an expert on what results Muslim's get? Have you actually researched this to stand behind that statement, because I am interested in the data compiled. Does every christian tell you what God is doing in their life, and how he works through them?

All good things come from God.

Is that a reason you believe in God, or do you believe that because you believe in God? Is it effect or cause? Or both?

I believe in God because nothing else makes sense to me.

If you sincerely listen to God, he will not disappoint.

I affirm to you here and now, that I sincerely listened to God for 25 years, and he did disappoint.

Because you didn't get your way?

So, if I know someone who sincerely believes they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but they are consumed by fear and the worries of this world, what does that mean?

It probably means that they are human. Why is it that most of the people on here are so black and white? Our faith wavers at times, worry creeps in, and christians lie. We believe in the power of God, but sometimes we fall down. When we are down, we know that our faults will not consumus.

e You said yourself, "we cannot be connected to His nourishment, and not thrive."

Now you're saying that if saying is connected to his nourishment and doesn't thrive, that's just part of being human. What you're essentially saying is, if we see "fruit" of our relationship with God, then that's evidence that it's true, but if we don't see fruit, then that's not evidence that it's false. Can you understand how I might be slightly incredulous about that?

It does not mean we are not thriving, it means that we ARE thriving in the midst of things that could destroy us. Based on what you said, I understand why you are confused...but that isn't what I am saying at all. Being attached to the vine, means that we have a constant nourishment from Jesus. We are human...we still lie sometimes, we get angry to fast, we feel what you feel...we make mistakes. The difference is that those things don't consume us.

To boil it down to simple terms, it would be like if you said, "all you have to do to prove God exists is flip a coin. If it comes up heads, you know he's real." Then, if I flip it and it comes up tails, you say, "that doesn't mean anything, just flip it again." For a position to be rational, you can't just accept the positive evidence and ignore the negative.

The negative?

Didn't you say that you grew up in a Christian home? Why don't you know about the things I am telling you? How is what I'm saying any different than what you grew up hearing?

It's not even a little bit different from what I grew up hearing. I'm just trying to explain to you why I believe that what I grew up hearing is false.

And I'm trying to tell you why I think it is the greatest news the world has to offer.

[rookiebatman]

Let us use that same thinking elsewhere. Sincerely believing you experienced the best vacation of your life in Florida, doesn't mean that Florida actually exists, just as you would agree that a native Californian sincerely believes that they experienced the best vacation in Maine, does not mean that Maine exists.

You cannot discredit peoples experiences of truth.

Comparing invisible supernatural beings to observable land masses is a deeply, glaringly false comparison.

If you sincerely listen to God, he will not disappoint.

I affirm to you here and now, that I sincerely listened to God for 25 years, and he did disappoint.

Because you didn't get your way?

That is what you would have to think for your beliefs to be true, but I'm afraid it's not the case. I didn't want God to be my cosmic vending machine who indulged all my slightest whims; I just wanted to have a relationship with him. That was all I "demanded" of him.

He didn't even give me that.