The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[OnceConvinced]

God is revealed in the bible, by His everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise from His foreknowledge...The faith of Abraham, which is the one and only faith right through the bible. Jesus and Paul can both be shown to preach the very gospel which God preached first to Abraham 2000 years earlier.
The faith of Abraham is not a religion, but simply faith in a statement by God, which is everlasting and unconditional. The religion which has been superimposed onto the faith of Abraham, has actually destroyed the faith of Abraham. Christians and Jews think that they are faithful to God, but they don't believe what God said, and what they do believe, God did not say...LOL
All the religious aspects, including laws, rituals and miracles, have been introduced by the lying priesthood. The original purpose of the lying priesthood was to cover up God's everlasting gospel promise. Once that was successfully accomplished, the main purpose of the lying priesthood became the continuous subjection of churchmen. The lying priesthood does that with promises of penalties or rewards, based on how well churchmen keep the rules which the lying priesthood says were instituted by God...IMHO

How can I possibly have faith in something that seems so ludicrous to me? I need to be able to believe the bible before I can put faith in it. I have to believe it's the word of God. But how can I believe it if it defies reality? If the things in it contradict what is true in my life? That would be like telling me to have faith in the works of Shakespeare.

Quoting what the bible is saying or what the people in it did is not going to help the situation, because I don't trust the words of the bible. I don't believe it to be the word of God. Why would I follow it's instructions? Why would I even take them seriously? And apparently... according to many Christians, I misunderstand the bible because I don't have the holy spirit in me. But how do I get the holy spirit in me so that I get the bible right?

[Provoker]

God is revealed in the bible, by His everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise from His foreknowledge...The faith of Abraham, which is the one and only faith right through the bible. Jesus and Paul can both be shown to preach the very gospel which God preached first to Abraham 2000 years earlier.
The faith of Abraham is not a religion, but simply faith in a statement by God, which is everlasting and unconditional. The religion which has been superimposed onto the faith of Abraham, has actually destroyed the faith of Abraham. Christians and Jews think that they are faithful to God, but they don't believe what God said, and what they do believe, God did not say...LOL
All the religious aspects, including laws, rituals and miracles, have been introduced by the lying priesthood. The original purpose of the lying priesthood was to cover up God's everlasting gospel promise. Once that was successfully accomplished, the main purpose of the lying priesthood became the continuous subjection of churchmen. The lying priesthood does that with promises of penalties or rewards, based on how well churchmen keep the rules which the lying priesthood says were instituted by God...IMHO

How can I possibly have faith in something that seems so ludicrous to me? I need to be able to believe the bible before I can put faith in it. I have to believe it's the word of God. But how can I believe it if it defies reality? If the things in it contradict what is true in my life? That would be like telling me to have faith in the works of Shakespeare.

Quoting what the bible is saying or what the people in it did is not going to help the situation, because I don't trust the words of the bible. I don't believe it to be the word of God. Why would I follow it's instructions? Why would I even take them seriously? And apparently... according to many Christians, I misunderstand the bible because I don't have the holy spirit in me. But how do I get the holy spirit in me so that I get the bible right?

Hi OnceConvinced:
I was once convinced too:-)
When I stopped viewing the bible as the complete, inerrant, word of God, I began to view it as a piece of literature from which I would try to glean something meaningful.
The most important thing in making decisions is logic. If we did not use logic we would all die young from some silly accident. So let's apply some logic to the bible: I don't find creation hard to believe, I must admit though, that I have no idea of how or when creation happened. The creation story in the bible is either a simple myth, or it has some metaphorical meaning which has yet to be explained.
So now you know that I don't accept everything in the bible as true, or meaningful, but I have found evidence of a completely logical, but heretofore unrecognized story flowing through the bible. I don't think it is the intended story because all the books of the bible were apparently written to stand alone. However, it is a clear story nevertheless, and I discovered by very basic detective work.
The faith of Abraham is basically a prediction by Abraham, that a great nation of his children will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all nations with everlasting peace on earth, good will toward men. There is no reason why this prediction is not acceptable to anyone who would like to have world peace. I can also see people accepting Abraham's belief and trying to talk others into accepting it. The issue here is world peace, and nothing else. Those who shared Abraham's faith, began to watch and wait for the one who would establish and lead the great nation.
Moses led the children of Israel out of bondage in Egypt, and talked them into promising to become the great nation of Abraham's prediction. The children of Israel failed when they became nationally divided, and the nation fell into non-existence.
Those who still believed in Abraham's prediction, even after the fall of the nation which attempted to fulfill it, began watching and waiting for the one who would resurrect the fallen nation from the dead...IOW, the one who would establish and lead the great everlasting nation.
Nothing has changed from then to today. Those who have faith in Abraham's prediction, are building a body of the faithful, to follow the one who is coming to establish and lead the great nation to everlasting world peace.
That is the everlasting good news story in a nutshell. Everything else in the bible is just other stories which are not necessarily pertinent to the greater story which is only revealed in the recorded history. Constantine and his Roman priesthood, hid the story I just related, because Abraham's prediction was a threat to the national security of the Roman Empire, which possessed the land defined in Abraham's prediction.
Remember, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and who does not hope for world peace?

[Zzyzx]

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Remember, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and who does not hope for world peace?

Hope itself produces little or nothing besides a "feels good" emotion.

If we replace "hope" with "effort" or work something may be accomplished -- no gods or the supernatural required.

[Provoker]

.

Remember, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and who does not hope for world peace?

Hope itself produces little or nothing besides a "feels good" emotion.

If we replace "hope" with "effort" or work something may be accomplished -- no gods or the supernatural required.

Hi Zzyzx:
Absolutely, and that is the whole point of the bible. God's gospel promise is that men, in the form of a great nation, will bless all nations with peace on earth.
While there is no command to do so, those who actually believe God's gospel promise, are making an effort to assemble a body of believers which is large enough to possess the land defined in God's gospel promise. Nothing supernatural required:-)

[Zzyzx]

.

While there is no command to do so, those who actually believe God's gospel promise, are making an effort to assemble a body of believers which is large enough to possess the land defined in God's gospel promise.

Is that related to what is happening in the Middle East currently?

There have been religious hostilities, conflicts and warfare in that area for a couple thousand years. Is that part of "God's plan" or "promise?"

[OnceConvinced]

So let's apply some logic to the bible:

That's sure one way to find its flaws.

I don't find creation hard to believe, I must admit though, that I have no idea of how or when creation happened. The creation story in the bible is either a simple myth, or it has some metaphorical meaning which has yet to be explained.

I see those earlier stories as "Just so" stories. Seems more logical to believe that they were intended as stories to entertain, much like Rudyard Kipling's stories. I don't believe they were meant to be taken as literal history. Some may say well, the characters really existed. That may be so, but then it's not uncommon for people to write fictional stories about real people.

So now you know that I don't accept everything in the bible as true, or meaningful, but I have found evidence of a completely logical, but heretofore unrecognized story flowing through the bible. I don't think it is the intended story because all the books of the bible were apparently written to stand alone. However, it is a clear story nevertheless, and I discovered by very basic detective work.

It seems you found that the bible was a gigantic jigsaw puzzle that fits together. I however came to the conclusion it was many different jigsaw puzzles that don't really fit.

Bible Jigsaw Puzzle

The faith of Abraham is basically a prediction by Abraham, that a great nation of his children will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all nations with everlasting peace on earth, good will toward men. There is no reason why this prediction is not acceptable to anyone who would like to have world peace. I can also see people accepting Abraham's belief and trying to talk others into accepting it. The issue here is world peace, and nothing else. Those who shared Abraham's faith, began to watch and wait for the one who would establish and lead the great nation.


Moses led the children of Israel out of bondage in Egypt, and talked them into promising to become the great nation of Abraham's prediction. The children of Israel failed when they became nationally divided, and the nation fell into non-existence.
Those who still believed in Abraham's prediction, even after the fall of the nation which attempted to fulfill it, began watching and waiting for the one who would resurrect the fallen nation from the dead...IOW, the one who would establish and lead the great everlasting nation.
Nothing has changed from then to today. Those who have faith in Abraham's prediction, are building a body of the faithful, to follow the one who is coming to establish and lead the great nation to everlasting world peace.
That is the everlasting good news story in a nutshell. Everything else in the bible is just other stories which are not necessarily pertinent to the greater story which is only revealed in the recorded history. Constantine and his Roman priesthood, hid the story I just related, because Abraham's prediction was a threat to the national security of the Roman Empire, which possessed the land defined in Abraham's prediction.

Is it possible you may be trying a little too hard to fit all the pieces from multiple puzzles together? I just don't see any good reason to try to do that anymore. I have come to accept that it's multiple jigsaw puzzles that were never meant to be fitted together.

Remember, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and who does not hope for world peace?

I no longer see faith as being a virtue. I see it more now as gullibility and/or stubbornness.

Sure, I hope for world peace, but I don't hold my breath, nor do I have faith it will happen.

[Provoker]

.

While there is no command to do so, those who actually believe God's gospel promise, are making an effort to assemble a body of believers which is large enough to possess the land defined in God's gospel promise.

Is that related to what is happening in the Middle East currently?

There have been religious hostilities, conflicts and warfare in that area for a couple thousand years. Is that part of "God's plan" or "promise?"

Hello Zzyzx:
IMO, Absolutely!!!
You see, while God's promise of everlasting world peace is quite clear in the bible, Christians have been taught for 1700 years, not to pay any attention to God's promise. The Jews see themselves as descendants of Abraham, but they are only concerned with getting the land they think God promised to them.
However, the Arabs are descended from Abraham too. I think that fundamentalist Muslim Arabs plan to convert the whole world to Islam, by killing everyone who will not convert, and establishing world peace by inflicting Sharia Law on the whole world.
The way things are going in the middle east, it will probably get to all out war between the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs obviously have the advantage of being a lot more gung ho than the Jews.
Until the West understands about God's everlasting gospel promise, and how it is supposed to be fulfilled, they will never understand why the Muslims are so gung ho.

[Danmark]

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While there is no command to do so, those who actually believe God's gospel promise, are making an effort to assemble a body of believers which is large enough to possess the land defined in God's gospel promise.

Is that related to what is happening in the Middle East currently?

There have been religious hostilities, conflicts and warfare in that area for a couple thousand years. Is that part of "God's plan" or "promise?"

Hello Zzyzx:
IMO, Absolutely!!!
You see, while God's promise of everlasting world peace is quite clear in the bible, Christians have been taught for 1700 years, not to pay any attention to God's promise. The Jews see themselves as descendants of Abraham, but they are only concerned with getting the land they think God promised to them.
However, the Arabs are descended from Abraham too. I think that fundamentalist Muslim Arabs plan to convert the whole world to Islam, by killing everyone who will not convert, and establishing world peace by inflicting Sharia Law on the whole world.
The way things are going in the middle east, it will probably get to all out war between the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs obviously have the advantage of being a lot more gung ho than the Jews.
Until the West understands about God's everlasting gospel promise, and how it is supposed to be fulfilled, they will never understand why the Muslims are so gung ho.

My goodness! Whoever gave the cultures of the Middle East the license to invent God or declare who or what God is?
Getting back to the OP, I see no paradox at all. Simply because of the way cultures have spread geographically and the influence of the great military and industrial powers over the last millenium or so, we have Abrahamic religions that dominate the Middle East, Africa, Europe and the Americas; and Hinduism, Buddhism, and other belief systems that dominate Asia. It's all just an accident of history and and political power.

It's all absolute nonsense, by definition. It is non sense. I see the mission of the rational man to wipe away these crusty, dirty, infestations of irrational belief systems built upon foundations of shifting desert sands and start over completely, from a basis that asks, "What do we really know?"

[Provoker]

So let's apply some logic to the bible:

That's sure one way to find its flaws.

Hi OnceConvinced:
Absolutely. The bible is full of flaws, but those flaws can be understood, and seen past, to find a reasonable story.

I see those earlier stories as "Just so" stories. Seems more logical to believe that they were intended as stories to entertain, much like Rudyard Kipling's stories. I don't believe they were meant to be taken as literal history. Some may say well, the characters really existed. That may be so, but then it's not uncommon for people to write fictional stories about real people.

I agree in principle, but some of the bible stories, while exaggerated, fit smoothly into the greater story which I find in the biblically recorded history.

It seems you found that the bible was a gigantic jigsaw puzzle that fits together. I however came to the conclusion it was many different jigsaw puzzles that don't really fit.

The reason I began to try to find some logic in the bible, is because I recognized that it was made up of jigsaw puzzles. I believe that I have solved the puzzle...the bible code, if you will:-)

Is it possible you may be trying a little too hard to fit all the pieces from multiple puzzles together? I just don't see any good reason to try to do that anymore. I have come to accept that it's multiple jigsaw puzzles that were never meant to be fitted together.

Absolutely not!!! I only fit together the things which fit together naturally. I take the puzzle out of the bible by showing that the point of the bible is logical, and possible.

I no longer see faith as being a virtue. I see it more now as gullibility and/or stubbornness.

Sure, I hope for world peace, but I don't hold my breath, nor do I have faith it will happen.

Faith and gullibility are very closely related. My definition of gullibility is believing in something which could not happen. That could never be faith. Faith, to me, is believing in something for which there is a reasonable possibility of it happening. "The Faith" of the bible, is not faith in God for our daily bread, and all that kind of stuff. "The Faith" of the bible is very specific: It is belief that a great nation of believers, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all nations with everlasting world peace.
Priesthoods have added a pagan religion of laws, rewards, and punishments, to a simple everlasting, unconditional, promise of God.
According to the greater story of the bible:-)

[Zzyzx]

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Faith and gullibility are very closely related. My definition of gullibility is believing in something which could not happen.

That personalized definition of gullible differs strongly from common-use dictionary definitions.


Easily deceived or duped.

Or

a failure of social intelligence in which a person is easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action.

Or

easily deceived or tricked, and too willing to believe everything that other people say


Notice that nothing is stated or implied to include "could not happen."

Faith, to me, is believing in something for which there is a reasonable possibility of it happening.

Again the personalized definition differs from common-use definitions (which do not include "reasonable possibility of happening."

confidence or trust in a being, object, living organism, deity, view, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion.

Or

Hebrews 11:1 KJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

"The Faith" of the bible, is not faith in God for our daily bread, and all that kind of stuff. "The Faith" of the bible is very specific: It is belief that a great nation of believers, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all nations with everlasting world peace.

Since that has not happened in thousands of years, why should it be considered as having "reasonable possibility of happening"? Would that be because ancient religion promoters thought so?

If a different god or religion propose something entirely different, is that worthy of faith because it has just as much possibility of happening?

Priesthoods have added a pagan religion of laws, rewards, and punishments, to a simple everlasting, unconditional, promise of God.
According to the greater story of the bible:

Individuals have also added their own embellishments and interpretations – as we can see in these threads.