Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights

[micatala]

I offer this thread as a Christian who supports gay rights as an admittedly forward challenge to my brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Acts Ch. 14 and 15, Luke describes James and the other Apostles discussions which led them to exempt Gentiles from well over 99% of the Law of Moses. The main reason they did so was to avoid putting an excessive burden on Gentiles. Implicit in their decision was the issue that expecting everyone to follow these traditional rules, rules that many saw as outdated, would be a drag on the new movement.

Today, we see polls like this one that indicate many young people leaving the church or the faith because of the negative attitude displayed by many religious people towards gays and lesbians.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... ign=buffer


1) Would it not make sense for Christians to lay aside anti-gay rhetoric, including quoting of Biblical verses that are claimed to condemn homosexuality, if for no other reason than it is counter-productive to evangelism?

2) Does not Jesus' own ministry, and the actions of the Apostles as described in Acts 15 give ample precedent for laying aside Biblical verses that seem to allude to homosexuality?


I will note that Christianity has by and large already set aside many precepts now seen to be archaic, including the idea that women should never speak in church, and that we should simply accept any and all governments as instituted by God and worthy of our obedience. The Declaration of Independence, in particular, repudiates this notion, outlined by Paul in his letters.

I will note that Jesus is quoted in the gospels as explicitly laying aside aspects of the law, and that he was criticized by many of his fellow believers, especially those who were arguably most religious, for doing so.

I will point out that the faith of those conservative believers rather quickly became a small minority as compared to Christianity.


It really comes down to this:

3) Is non-acceptance of homosexuality so central to Christianity that Christians should cling to traditional notions against homosexuality, or can we lay those aside as tangential to the central message of the gospel?

[micatala]

[Replying to post 229 by Beans]


I am unclear why you think you need to engage in posturing regarding what you claim to know versus what you think I know or need to be educated about. If you have a point to make, simply make it. You seem to believe I am concerned about the setting aside of the Law. That is not the case.

Read the opening post again. Hopefully that will make my position clearer.

[Beans]

[Replying to post 229 by Beans]


I am unclear why you think you need to engage in posturing regarding what you claim to know versus what you think I know or need to be educated about. If you have a point to make, simply make it. You seem to believe I am concerned about the setting aside of the Law. That is not the case.

Read the opening post again. Hopefully that will make my position clearer.

Sorry you feel that way.

I think my posts 224 and 227 express my view clear enough.

I will refrain from posting any further in your thread.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Danmark]

Hello Danmark,

This is a reply to your post #213. The discussion of whether homosexuality is wrong or not yet continues.

You said, This 'wrong' is only wrong in the eyes of a certain, very conservative Christian faction. Im sure you will agree that the person that abstains from wrongful behavior of any kind knows with surety the wrong that he abstains from. Is that not true with the believer that abstains from what the Bible says is wrong? Is there anything wrong with our sharing what we know is wrong? A system of standards such as the National Bureau of Standards (NBS) is essential for the measurement world. So is the Bible essential for our morality. Is the NBS only for "conservative measurement freaks?" Do you think that it should be abolished to give merchants the right to cheat their customers? Please dont cheat yourself of Biblical protection for your and my morality that protects us from others trying to cheat us of the same. Let's not reject the counsel of God that's our foremost protection, please!

One may take the choice to continue in the way he is going despite warnings to do otherwise but only remember that his continuance will not relieve him of the responsibility to act on the warning once he received it.

Its not my responsibility to judge but it IS my responsibility to inform of acts that will bring judgment if continued. Do you call that an act of judging? I certainly wish someone would do the same to me when I am guilty of wrong.

I do not know the Family Research Council as a group guilty of any kind of hatred. On what grounds should they be considered a hate group? Is the action described in Ecclesiastes 7:5 an act of hatred? Should the watchdog that protects us be condemned while a beast that wants to consume us be protected? Huh? Does it not pay to know which is the watchdog and which is the consuming beast?

Let's not please fight the truth that keeps us!

Take care,
Earl

[rookiebatman]

I do not know the Family Research Council as a group guilty of any kind of hatred. On what grounds should they be considered a hate group? Is the action described in Ecclesiastes 7:5 an act of hatred? Should the watchdog that protects us be condemned while a beast that wants to consume us be protected? Huh? Does it not pay to know which is the watchdog and which is the consuming beast?

Please explain to us how dudes wanting to be intimate with other dudes is a "consuming beast."

[Erexsaur]

But that does not mean that God approved the acts. Those that carried them out suffered consequences. The Bible is honest also to show misdeeds of heroes that brought undesirable consequences.

But you are not being honest about how polygamy is characterized in the Bible. The Old Testament contains the law of Moses, which contains many verses concerning sexual relations and marriage , but does not prohibit a man from taking more than one wife. In fact in several places the Old Testament talks about God giving men more than one wife. Read 2 Samuel 12:8
also
Numbers 12:1-15
Here Miriam is punished for criticizing Moses for marrying another wife.

Hello help3434,

This is an answer to your post #214.

Its unfortunate that respected Biblical individuals practiced polygamy. Do you remember what the many wives of Solomon did to him? Please note Deuteronomy 17:17. The Bible is honest to point out faults as well as the good deeds of prominent figures. Its general message tends to be against polygamy.

Here are sights that are helpful in the polygamy debate.

http://creation.com/does-the-bible-clea ... h-monogamy

http://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp75.htm

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-qu ... ygamy.html


Take care,
Earl

[rookiebatman]

Please note Deuteronomy 17:17.

From the NIV:

"He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold."

Putting an injunction on "many wives" is not a condemnation of polygamy in general. How many is "many?" Five? Ten? A hundred? I don't know anyone who thinks "many" means two or three. Furthermore, this passage refers specifically to the king.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 215 by McCulloch]


Hello McCulloch,

Were you really bewildered by my use of computers and software as object lessons to explain the wrongness of homosexuality? I doubt it.

You ask me if I read Poor Richards almanac when you told me that you read Proverbs. I would only ask if you would please not take for granted your freedom to read the Bible that people were persecuted for reading to this day. So were translators of this book to English persecuted. Please be careful!

You have made your apathy against the Bible very clear. But I do not buy it. I only know that we all have inner longings for the real truth in our hearts and I aint gonna let you turn your back on it without screeming! Should a child walk away from the guidance of his parents? Only a wrong impression would cause someone to hold into contempt the wisdom of God that repeatedly proves itself.

Your putting the Bible in the same category as the Urantia Book, the Book of Mormon, the Guru Granth Sahib or the Quran is only another manifestation of your taking it lightly. What comparable savior do you find in the other books? Do I need to tell you that a diamond is too far above rhinestones to be counted on the same level?

God is not a person that will force anything on anyone against their will. The view of God as forceful and threatening is among the major things that throw people into having a mind against Him. You never would have said what you said above if you truly know His kindness.

Biblical truth (your hope) yet patiently knocks at the door of your heart waiting for your understanding and trust. Theres a big difference between knowing mere words and personally knowing the Author of those words.

We argue whether homosexuality is good or not and whether or not theres any basis for any claim against it. Build your defense. Even if I gave in to say its good to your satisfaction, theres still a major problem. Only remember that when Eve saw that the fruit was good to eat and pleasant to the eyes, she and Adam were then lured to the fall.

The problem was the multiple-master syndrome. Any attempt to serve two masters only leads to the abandonment of one. In the case of Adam and Eve, their yielding to lust for the fruit became their master at the expense of their trust in the authority of God to be their master. Determined lust for homosexual pleasure leads to the same. Homosexuality by nature rejects the sovereignty of God that created man as male and female. Arent we both familiar with rejection of sovereignty in the natural? Such toward Boss-man leads to firing by Boss-man.

But individuals end up wanting God when they become fed up with their errors.


Take care,
Earl

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 236 by Erexsaur]

Whether it's evolution vs. the Genesis creation account, or the mounting evidence that there is a genetic basis for gender attraction vs. the Old Testament, those who deny the science remind me of a guy with an old map.

When he sees clear discrepancies between the geography actually in front of him, he clings to his belief in the map rather than trust his senses.

A personal anecdote:
Both my mother and father are/were devout evangelical Christians all their lives, as were their extended families. Of all my nephews, nieces, and cousins on my Dad's side, there is only one homosexual, a nephew. On my mother's side at least a dozen, prob'ly more. It's not something I pay much attention to.

One of my first cousins on my mother's side is active in Republican politics and a devout Christian. He's too well known for me to give more information about his accomplishments and such. In short, he is gay while he has every reason but biology to persuade him to "choose" to be straight, IF it were a choice. It is not.

Condemning people for being "the way God made them," based on a Biblical edict, is just one more acknowledgement that the Bible got it wrong; therefore, the Bible is not authored by God.

When your map has been found defective, throw away the map, not reality.

[PeteZa]

1) Would it not make sense for Christians to lay aside anti-gay rhetoric, including quoting of Biblical verses that are claimed to condemn homosexuality, if for no other reason than it is counter-productive to evangelism?

So do you believe it's Ok to cherry pick the Bible and just use the verses Christians think are relevant and throw away the rest?

[rookiebatman]

So do you believe it's Ok to cherry pick the Bible and just use the verses Christians think are relevant and throw away the rest?

I'll tell you what I believe; I believe all Christians cherry-pick, no matter how much they claim to hold the entire Bible as sovereign. Of course, I can't exactly prove this, because I can't test every single Christian in the world, but I believe I can show you how even those Christians who eschew the idea of "shelf verses" still do ignore the verses that don't fit with their own morals, beliefs, or conception of God.