Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights

[micatala]

I offer this thread as a Christian who supports gay rights as an admittedly forward challenge to my brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Acts Ch. 14 and 15, Luke describes James and the other Apostles discussions which led them to exempt Gentiles from well over 99% of the Law of Moses. The main reason they did so was to avoid putting an excessive burden on Gentiles. Implicit in their decision was the issue that expecting everyone to follow these traditional rules, rules that many saw as outdated, would be a drag on the new movement.

Today, we see polls like this one that indicate many young people leaving the church or the faith because of the negative attitude displayed by many religious people towards gays and lesbians.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... ign=buffer


1) Would it not make sense for Christians to lay aside anti-gay rhetoric, including quoting of Biblical verses that are claimed to condemn homosexuality, if for no other reason than it is counter-productive to evangelism?

2) Does not Jesus' own ministry, and the actions of the Apostles as described in Acts 15 give ample precedent for laying aside Biblical verses that seem to allude to homosexuality?


I will note that Christianity has by and large already set aside many precepts now seen to be archaic, including the idea that women should never speak in church, and that we should simply accept any and all governments as instituted by God and worthy of our obedience. The Declaration of Independence, in particular, repudiates this notion, outlined by Paul in his letters.

I will note that Jesus is quoted in the gospels as explicitly laying aside aspects of the law, and that he was criticized by many of his fellow believers, especially those who were arguably most religious, for doing so.

I will point out that the faith of those conservative believers rather quickly became a small minority as compared to Christianity.


It really comes down to this:

3) Is non-acceptance of homosexuality so central to Christianity that Christians should cling to traditional notions against homosexuality, or can we lay those aside as tangential to the central message of the gospel?

[Danmark]

The Quest for Truth
The last several posts, by Haven and Danmark, speak of scientific facts/evidence, and appeal to an honest quest for truth. Please remember that the APA claims that there is no scientific consensus as to the causes of homosexuality [1]. This means that even the experts do not fully understand the issue. An appeal to science is a difficult sell [2].

I do not believe that the homosexual movement is in fact a quest for truth.

Haven has handled this very well.
Let me add, you appear to completely misunderstand the dynamic here. There is no such thing as a "homosexual movement."
What has happened is that despite the archaic, superstitious, and ignorance based prejudice from the past, fostered by ancient cultural bigotry enshrined by some religions, Christians, scientists, and others have overthrown these ancient prejudices against those who are different, and have made inquiry into the reasons for our differences.

This 'movement' has been influenced by a number of factors:
1. More and more gay and lesbian people have spoken out about their personal struggles. They have talked about how much they tried to fit in; how much they felt despised and felt the need to hide who they really were.
2. Many heterosexual people like myself have examined our own prejudices and found we did not like these feelings of hostility toward people we otherwise had no reason to be biased against.
3. Many who shared the common prejudice against gays and lesbians have recognized that many very good people, their own children included, acted in accord with the idea their gender attraction was natural for them and not a choice.
4. Many heterosexuals realized they themselves never made a choice to be attracted to the opposite sex and thus they empathized with those who were attracted to the same sex and suffered social isolation over things they could not control.
5. Scientists have been discovering more reasons to suggest gender attraction is not a choice, but has many factors involved, including genetic correlations.

This is not a 'movement' at all, but a coalescing of many factors which have impressed sensitive, caring, well educated people to appreciate that many of their former religious and other cultural beliefs were not absolutes; that they should be open to truth and reality rather than cling to the past just because of tradition.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Danmark]

Hello Danmark,

This answer is to post #249.

In response to your statement, "Earl, this post suggests to me you do not understand the theory of evolution. There is nothing absolutely "chancy" about evolution. The process of life forms evolving into different species is not entirely random," My response is:


You are correct that I do not understand the theory of evolution. Neither does Reality. Random House tells us that a theory is, “a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.� What other than conjecture does evolution stand on? Do fossils have labels to tell us how old they are and how they evolved? What scientific law supports the processes you spoke of? Is there any known reason that explains why we don’t find silicon based life? How was the bilateral symmetry initiated if not by anyone’s will? Has chance will?

[Erexsaur]

...
You said, “Condemning people for being ‘the way God made them,’ based on a Biblical edict, is just one more acknowledgement that the Bible got it wrong; therefore, the Bible is not authored by God. �

Did I condemn you? Do you prefer that I do so by giving you up to let you go your way? Is the commandment for a person not to kill and steal from you (also found in the Bible that “got it wrong�) not authored by God?

You did not condemn me, but your belief system condemns homosexuals. And I never said the Bible got everything wrong. But to be from an omniscient God, the bible must be perfect. It isn't.

If you think gender attraction is a choice, try changing which gender you are attracted to. I have never met a heterosexual, including myself, who claims he "chose" to be heterosexual. Despite this obvious proof, and the facts and statistics you've been presented, you cling to your beliefs solely because "The Bible told me so." I suggest this is an irrational route of inquiry.

Hello Danmark,

This is an answer to your post #246.

You said,

You did not condemn me, but your belief system condemns homosexuals. And I never said the Bible got everything wrong. But to be from an omniscient God, the bible must be perfect. It isn't.

But my belief system is based on the Bible. Thanks for effectively admitting that you were not arguing with me, but with God. No worry. This is common for anyone when God is ready to have him move up from a crippling comfort zone to a glorious level that God has waiting for him. Sin does not want such a move.

You say that the Bible is not perfect? Neither did God’s instructions to Adam and Eve appear perfect after they received the impression that God had something to hide by telling them to avoid the forbidden fruit. But when God is trusted and obeyed, the eyes of the obedient is opened to see the purity of God’s word for his own good. Disobedience opens the eyes only to shame.

Then you commented,

If you think gender attraction is a choice, try changing which gender you are attracted to. I have never met a heterosexual, including myself, who claims he "chose" to be heterosexual. Despite this obvious proof, and the facts and statistics you've been presented, you cling to your beliefs solely because "The Bible told me so." I suggest this is an irrational route of inquiry.

Do I cling to my belief solely because the Bible told me so? Let me explain on this wise: You do not stop at a stop sign only because you are a mere slave to the command to stop at the sign (even though helpful), but that you do so to avoid a possible deadly collision. Even if you don’t know the reason behind a move you may be instructed to take, you carry it out because you trust the wisdom of the person that instructed you. So does the sailor the wisdom of the captain that’s far superior in the wisdom of sailing.

It is written that we let the word of God dwell in us richly and with all wisdom (Colossians 3:16) of which a faithful following is based on trust in His wisdom and on the wisdom we have learned. God is not happy with legalistic obedience similar to that of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. The things I share with you are also based on knowledge and understanding instead of mere legalism. Action out of legalism tires obedience. But trust, confession, and obedience prove Him trustworthy to give us victory over the struggle every time.

The Bible is more than a mere cookbook. Only remember there is always the danger of dependence on one’s own flawed opinion above the wisdom of God that only ends up in sorrow.

I'll be back for more posts.

Take care,
Earl

[Danmark]

But my belief system is based on the Bible. Thanks for effectively admitting that you were not arguing with me, but with God. No worry. This is common for anyone when God is ready to have him move up from a crippling comfort zone to a glorious level that God has waiting for him. Sin does not want such a move.

Please refrain from putting your words into my mouth.

You are wrong. I never argue with god or anyone else who does not exist. The Bible was written by many people, mainly anonymously, after many Centuries of oral tradition.

Taking the myths about Adam and Eve and talking snakes literally demeans the Bible. They and many of the stories from Genesis are obviously myths used to make a point. To take them as literally true is preposterous. Many Christian and Jewish scholars agree with this and consider such literalist approaches as primitive and childish. Even if I believed in this God, I would not blame him/her/it for the genocide contained in the Bible. I'd blame it on the people who claimed "God made us do it."

[Danmark]

Then you commented,

If you think gender attraction is a choice, try changing which gender you are attracted to. I have never met a heterosexual, including myself, who claims he "chose" to be heterosexual. Despite this obvious proof, and the facts and statistics you've been presented, you cling to your beliefs solely because "The Bible told me so." I suggest this is an irrational route of inquiry.

Do I cling to my belief solely because the Bible told me so? Let me explain on this wise: You do not stop at a stop sign only because you are a mere slave to the command to stop at the sign (even though helpful), but that you do so to avoid a possible deadly collision. Even if you don’t know the reason behind a move you may be instructed to take, you carry it out because you trust the wisdom of the person that instructed you. So does the sailor the wisdom of the captain that’s far superior in the wisdom of sailing.

It is written that we let the word of God dwell in us richly and with all wisdom (Colossians 3:16) of which a faithful following is based on trust in His wisdom and on the wisdom we have learned. God is not happy with legalistic obedience similar to that of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. The things I share with you are also based on knowledge and understanding instead of mere legalism. Action out of legalism tires obedience. But trust, confession, and obedience prove Him trustworthy to give us victory over the struggle every time.

The Bible is more than a mere cookbook. Only remember there is always the danger of dependence on one’s own flawed opinion above the wisdom of God that only ends up in sorrow.

Instead of responding to what I wrote, you preached another mini sermon.
I assume you cannot answer the evidence that gender attraction is not a choice. All you've done is reiterate your version of what the Bible says. Millions of Christians who believe the Bible have come to the conclusion you are wrong in your interpretation and consider the Bible's passages on homosexuaity to be of no more force than the Bible's admonition to not wear blended fabrics.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Danmark]

Hello Danmark,

Answer to post #263.

You said, "Instead of responding to what I wrote, you preached another mini sermon. "

Why do you continue to preach to me that gender attraction is not a choice and your denial that Biblical passages that support me have no weight? What you do is your choice. Go your way if you want.

[Erexsaur]

Why do you find it so necessary to attribute nature around us to chancy evolution? If chance is that reliable, why can’t it perform a far simpler task of regularly providing you (like paydays) with winning lottery tickets for the rest of your life?

Thanks for illustrating the targeted end result of the push toward evolutionary thinking--a “scientific� way to deceive ourselves into thinking that the sacred word of God is only a deceptive, discriminatory lie. C. S. Lewis wrote books that warn against scientism, the misuse of science, as a means of usurping political power.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/c-s-l ... ce-128028/

http://www.cslewisweb.com/the-magicians ... d-society/


Thanks for your very clear illustration of the reason that so many prefer the sandy foundation of the belief that supernatural intelligence was not involved in the creation of the magnificent universal order around us so that they may deceive themselves into thinking they are free from divine authority. How would you feel if someone treated you likewise if you were a figure of authority? No problem? The evolutionary mindset is one of the consuming beasts I talked about earlier.

Thanks for illustrating how faithful service to the god of lust leads to denial of the existence of Him that created our ability to love. I also in effect received the implied message that you think that a child works under a terrific handicap when he abides by the authority of his parents.

Compromise of truth is clear evidence of servitude to wrong made to appear right. Is “mighty� little 3-year old Johnny so smart that he is able to cross the street without assistance? Even though we are far more mature than little Johnny, don’t we yet face difficult challenges that throw us back to the status of a toddler that needs guidance? We need God, not a lottery machine.

Earl, this post suggests to me you do not understand the theory of evolution. There is nothing absolutely "chancy" about evolution. The process of life forms evolving into different species is not entirely random. Let's use your lottery analogy.

If the numbers are selected by picking numbered balls out of a spinning cage, that would be random. However, if certain numbers are lighter or larger, this will affect the result, which will have random elements, yet some numbers would come up more often. The same principle is involved with "loaded" dice.

There are scientific principles, fundamental laws of nature that are involved in the selection process. For example, I'm aware of no life forms that have evolved on Earth that are silicon based.
http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet ... 13/?no-ist

As far as I know, all mammals are bilaterally symmetrical. The claim that either "God did it" or everything is completely random is a false dichotomy.

Hi Danmark,

You are correct that I do not understand the theory of evolution. Neither does Reality. Random House tells us that a theory is, “a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.� What other than conjecture does evolution stand on?

Do fossils have labels to tell us how old they are and how they evolved? What scientific law supports the processes you spoke of? How was the bilateral symmetry initiated if not by anyone’s will? Has chance will?

What is left but chance if the universe did not come about by an act of intelligence? Where is will without intelligence? The lottery machine I spoke of completely randomizes any human input on who gets the winning ticket even though intelligence is needed to operate the machine and hand out the money.

You also said, “There are scientific principles, fundamental laws of nature that are involved in the selection process.� But what other than intelligence is able to follow scientific principles, fundamental laws, and is able to be involved in a selection process? Please?

I say again that the only “basis� I see for evolution is that it is a convenient “foundation� for denial of the authority of God that gave us all laws by those that want to deny Him. But I trust that you do not place yourself in that category. If the things I share bother you now you will find it handy later.

Earl

[Haven]

[Replying to Danmark]

Hello Danmark,

Answer to post #263.

You said, "Instead of responding to what I wrote, you preached another mini sermon. "

Why do you continue to preach to me that gender attraction is not a choice and your denial that Biblical passages that support me have no weight? What you do is your choice. Go your way if you want.

Neither I or Danmark have "preached" anything. We've presented hard scientific evidence that gender attraction is not a choice. You've been preaching at us despite the fact that we're both atheists and don't believe the Bible is anything more than the writings of ancient men.

If you believe gender attraction is a choice, then choose to be gay right now. Choose to be attracted to men. If you can't do that, then please kindly stop making statements that are clearly false.

[Danmark]

You are correct that I do not understand the theory of evolution. Neither does Reality. Random House tells us that a theory is, “a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.� What other than conjecture does evolution stand on?

Do fossils have labels to tell us how old they are and how they evolved? What scientific law supports the processes you spoke of? How was the bilateral symmetry initiated if not by anyone’s will? Has chance will?

What is left but chance if the universe did not come about by an act of intelligence? Where is will without intelligence? The lottery machine I spoke of completely randomizes any human input on who gets the winning ticket even though intelligence is needed to operate the machine and hand out the money.

You also said, “There are scientific principles, fundamental laws of nature that are involved in the selection process.� But what other than intelligence is able to follow scientific principles, fundamental laws, and is able to be involved in a selection process? Please?

I say again that the only “basis� I see for evolution is that it is a convenient “foundation� for denial of the authority of God that gave us all laws by those that want to deny Him. But I trust that you do not place yourself in that category. If the things I share bother you now you will find it handy later.

Earl

Earl, we live in two different worlds. Yours is based on a belief that a book men wrote 3000 years ago somehow contains the word of God.
I live in a world where we compare objective observations that can be repeated by others who find the same results.

The theory of evolution is no longer just a theory. It's broad precepts at least are considered fact, even tho' there will likely always be scholarly disagreement about the details since science is ongoing, not frozen in time like a religious belief from 3000 years ago.

Let me give one example from the Bible. Please answer it before we move on. As you know in Leviticus, chapter 19 "God" condemns the wearing of clothes made from blended fabrics.

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."

Tell me Earl, is this command from God true for all time?
If so, please tell me why.

[dianaiad]

...
You said, “Condemning people for being ‘the way God made them,’ based on a Biblical edict, is just one more acknowledgement that the Bible got it wrong; therefore, the Bible is not authored by God. �

Did I condemn you? Do you prefer that I do so by giving you up to let you go your way? Is the commandment for a person not to kill and steal from you (also found in the Bible that “got it wrong�) not authored by God?

You did not condemn me, but your belief system condemns homosexuals. And I never said the Bible got everything wrong. But to be from an omniscient God, the bible must be perfect. It isn't.

If you think gender attraction is a choice, try changing which gender you are attracted to. I have never met a heterosexual, including myself, who claims he "chose" to be heterosexual. Despite this obvious proof, and the facts and statistics you've been presented, you cling to your beliefs solely because "The Bible told me so." I suggest this is an irrational route of inquiry.

Hello Danmark,

This is an answer to your post #246.

You said,

You did not condemn me, but your belief system condemns homosexuals. And I never said the Bible got everything wrong. But to be from an omniscient God, the bible must be perfect. It isn't.

But my belief system is based on the Bible. Thanks for effectively admitting that you were not arguing with me, but with God. No worry. This is common for anyone when God is ready to have him move up from a crippling comfort zone to a glorious level that God has waiting for him. Sin does not want such a move.

You say that the Bible is not perfect? Neither did God’s instructions to Adam and Eve appear perfect after they received the impression that God had something to hide by telling them to avoid the forbidden fruit. But when God is trusted and obeyed, the eyes of the obedient is opened to see the purity of God’s word for his own good. Disobedience opens the eyes only to shame.

Then you commented,

If you think gender attraction is a choice, try changing which gender you are attracted to. I have never met a heterosexual, including myself, who claims he "chose" to be heterosexual. Despite this obvious proof, and the facts and statistics you've been presented, you cling to your beliefs solely because "The Bible told me so." I suggest this is an irrational route of inquiry.

Do I cling to my belief solely because the Bible told me so? Let me explain on this wise: You do not stop at a stop sign only because you are a mere slave to the command to stop at the sign (even though helpful), but that you do so to avoid a possible deadly collision. Even if you don’t know the reason behind a move you may be instructed to take, you carry it out because you trust the wisdom of the person that instructed you. So does the sailor the wisdom of the captain that’s far superior in the wisdom of sailing.

It is written that we let the word of God dwell in us richly and with all wisdom (Colossians 3:16) of which a faithful following is based on trust in His wisdom and on the wisdom we have learned. God is not happy with legalistic obedience similar to that of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. The things I share with you are also based on knowledge and understanding instead of mere legalism. Action out of legalism tires obedience. But trust, confession, and obedience prove Him trustworthy to give us victory over the struggle every time.

The Bible is more than a mere cookbook. Only remember there is always the danger of dependence on one’s own flawed opinion above the wisdom of God that only ends up in sorrow.

I'll be back for more posts.

Take care,
Earl

Moderator Comment

While one of the most gentle examples of preaching I've seen, and appropriate in "Holy Huddle" or perhaps "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma," using the bible as an authoritative source text in "Politics and Religion" isn't a good idea, and is against the rules.

This post would be considered to not comply with the guidelines on preaching. Please read through the guidelines and abide by them.


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