"I am not a Theist & not religious but I believe in

[Zzyzx]

.
Does the following seem self-contradictory?

From ONE post in a current thread –

God speaks through ALL His creation including us men, and just because we deny to hear Him (because of sin) doesn't mean it is lost.

Of course I don't expect you to believe in God just because I do, and that I believe it was His revelation

had very little education, and struggle to express myself, especially with the things God has revealed to me.

This is exactly why God used His Prophets and even His Son to personally talk to us.

I am here to 'reveal by Undeniable Scientific Evidence' our Creator.

Infinity, the origin of the universe, the beginning of life" may be beyond your understanding, or the refusal thereof, but is definitely not mine.

AND

I am not religious, how can I explain this to you?

I will not become a religious theist/atheist just to please you.

I'm serious my friend, since I have told you at least 500 times in debates that I am not a Theist, yet you still keep referring to me as a Theist.

Note: Theism is defined as: Belief in the existence of a god or gods

Religion is difficult to define but generally involves some belief in a supernatural entity that may (or may not) influence human affairs – or perhaps an afterlife


Question for debate: If one believes in God can they NOT be a Theist and NOT be religious?

[arian]

[Replying to post 68 by arian]

If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

ok prove it I am open to hearing out the evidence to support your claim.

Even though I find it beneficial to repeat myself, because it gets my brain-muscles to be able to react better and faster to things my mind wants to say, please go to;

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... rt=260#top

If you have any other questions, please debate it there.

Besides, how could you be evolving all the time when it comes to your perception of the world if you don't like my quotes from movies?

what does that have to do with my ever changing perception of the world?

In school, in the newspaper, in President speeches, in general media they always present a happy utopian future of endless life in some matrix, or nano-bots keeping you alive forever eliminating sickness that cause aging, and all kinds of 'One World 'order', .. not chaos like the movie 'Purge', right?
Movies reveal the true intentions, and the more honest 'possible results' of what is being planned.

Like this new movie CHAPPiE, its a revelation of the true intention people are all excited about, those bionic arms and feet with feelings, and how much better man will be able to live, and enjoy a fuller and more exciting life of adventures beyond your wildest dreams.
They tell you to Imagine having four titanium bionic extremities, turn on the feet/hands suction cups and you could scale the tallest buildings. With another twist of the arms and legs, and you can climb the highest mountains and no pegs or ropes needed either. Need more energy half way up? No problem, the auto-energy 666 power drink (patent pending) will be pumped intravenously into your system giving you another fast 5-hour climbing time all while accessing info on the mountain through your 'Google-eyes'.

But what does this CHAPPiE movie reveal? It reveals the truth, which is that 'they don't just want you to loose your arms and legs, what they really want is to change you over to a complete robot.

The salesman will instruct people: "Please pick the model, accessories and color before we make the, .. umm, .. transfer. We do not accept any exchange or returns! Once you make the transfer, you cannot return to your old, physical weak, aging, going blind, don't know jack body!"

But someone might still show some intelligent life and say: "Hey, wait a minute, that's not me!? That's a damned robot, so where would I be?"

They will tell that person: "Ah yes, we do have the 'more personalized option' for a small additional fee, we can remove your brain place it in a glass container and implanted into the titanium skeletal structure of U-robot. So you will know that's you! It's more of a personal touch than for actual use because the U-robot already comes with Google-plus."

But the movies are more realistic and honest, and reveal the frightening truth behind every intention and lies.

And most movies are messages from Satan

If most movies are messages from satan then why should I trust your movie quotes?

It's the only time you'll see Satan revealing the truth in his plans! This is when he is bragging about what he'll do to us and the earth. Especially those post-apocalyptic movies, ooohh the boy likes to brag!

it's better and more informative on what's really going on in the world than watching the news!

So messages from satan are more informative on the world than watching the news?

They're both from Satan, only like I said, he brags in the movies thinking; "Aaahh, no one will realize this is really my plan, this is just a movie! They'll run back to church on Saturday, or Sunday and I'll just pump more lies into them there with a bunch of happy, happy joy, joy after they get raptured outa here stuff! Ha, Ha, Ha, .. yeah, raptured into my claws, into some scam where I offer them eternal life with where all their treasure is, right here on earth, in a bionic body or in a Matrix! All the pleasures of the world, riches, toys, euphoria delight with no side effects, oh they'll go for it all right!"

When did you become a satanist?

Well from what I see of your intentions so far, it'll be the day right after you become a True Believer in the One and Only Creator God.

But seriously, I am truly hoping and praying that one day;
you'll see the light,
where there'll be no more darkness,
no more night,
then I'll be happy, ..
with this feeling inside,
singing: "Praise the Lord, my debating friend Daniel sees the light!"

[arian]

.

One angle that you haven't tried is to present actual, verifiable evidence to substantiate your claims and stories.

You mean like the red-shift that will eventually create the universe,

Feel free to use red-shift to prove that demons exist (or to prove that any of your claims and stories are more than imagination).

Well, if the existence of demons possessing and leading peoples decision is not obvious to you, if you can't see the evil in Agenda 21, if you cannot see the evil in children's video games, movies, porn on the internet, our country intimidating and creating wars with absolutely no other purpose than for greed, torture, boasting ones military might, .. if you can't see the evil in abortion, or in Miley Siruses twerking, Lady Gaga's Satanic music videos, all the skeletons and Satanic graphics on kids shirts, shoes, hats, tattoos, then I don't even have to show you that demons exist, nor why you are denying their existence.

Do you believe in good and evil, if so, can you tell me something you believe is good, and something you believe is evil?

Not everybody is that fortunate, most people have to learn to accept history as verifiable evidence as to things like this guy named Abraham Lincoln who was supposedly one of our Presidents who got shot in the head!?
The best evidence I have seen of that was a Flintstones-style photograph/drawing, which I'm sure you wouldn't put that in your 'evidence list', right Z?

Interested and capable people can find a bit more evidence regarding Lincoln's assassination than Flintstones-style. Others evidently cannot.

Yeah, I know what you mean. People can put more faith in cave painting stick figures and swear they represent more critical information of how the evolving ape-man lived, hunted and ate millions and millions of years ago, then his faith in what the Declaration of Independence really means written only a few hundred years ago, .. evidently.

Unless you can accept stories like 'Noah's flood' as evidence which later you could compare other stories to?

Exactly what evidence indicates that the Earth was flooded Noah-style "to the tops of mountains?" To what other flood tales should / might it be compared? Real events, or fables?

Exhibit A
A really, really long time ago, exactly 3.8 billions of years ago with no purpose or plan, out of and in nothing there was this Big-bang causing all scientists to run in nothing to see what happened, and as they observed as all scientists do, and not touching anything so not to contaminate the outcome of the beautiful earth which eventually evolve all kinds of biological life on it, they observed as the red-shift gasses formed our planet, and then from the extreme heat created cold which started to cool the universe and earth, forming clouds that covered our entire planet, even the tops of mountains until time/creator (best known as Father-Time) forced those gasses to cover the earth with water. Then meteors came splashing the water all over the place which by chance separated the gasses into groups, water here, air there, poison in the ground or splashed into the now very cold space - real event as evidenced by scientists whose sole job is to observe the world around them, and document their observation.

Exhibit B
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. * And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (* Spirit/Mind of God was hovering/contemplating over the face of the waters, .. as in "Hmm, let's see what I should do next?")

3 Then God said, “Let there be light�; and there was light. (* God created laws that formed light) 4 And God saw the light, that it was good (* seen the benefits of light He created); and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gods day, not solar day)

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.� 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. - unobserved revelation from the Creator, the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind "I Am Who I Am"

People put their life on fake x-rays that show they have cancer, and start that deadly radiation therapy ASAP!

To what "fake X-rays" do you refer? How are X-rays faked? What is the process? When and where does it happen?

They take one of their own from several different heights, genders, ages and put them on the x-ray table, then take chicken, beef and pork pieces and put them on top of each person in different places, then take the picture, .. and whala, 'you have cancer'!
They then send copies of these to their 'second opinion doctors', who first laugh their ass off, then leave some of the tears from the laughter in their eyes, change the smile to a well rehearsed, professional 'grieving/empathetic' look and call in the family, who after years of indoctrinations through TV, poster, pamphlet adds (Cancer awareness adds) before they even hear the doctors, or see the x-rays 'know beyond the shadow of a doubt' that the family member has cancer. They look at the doctors and with a sigh say: ".. we knew it." which seals their loving family members fate.

"But there is hope!" comes from the mouth of these caring, loving doctors, .. and that hope is in high doses of radioactive waste that will be injected carefully to prolong the agonizing and very expensive slow death of the victim, until the family, and any loving relatives are sucked out of their last penny. But not to worry, they will set up an On-Line Donation Network for that individual on death row, that can bring in additional money the doctors already drool over. Most of which will be used for more cancer-centers, more awareness posters, TV commercials including spots on the Big-Games.

The proof of this is with every person that had anyone diagnosed with cancer, but still refuse to believe it. Now there are 'Decepticons' out there who are rewarded to shave their heads and loose some weight who go through the motions of going to get the chemo-therapy, and who by the miracle of the combinations of chemo and radiation therapy are HEALED! praise the triune Deities!!

That might work when opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculation have not.

Remember the "demons are real" tale? That was a good one, but like so many supernatural or paranormal stories and claims, it was not supported at all aside from some personal opinions and testimonials (and more unlikely tales).

You know Z, you have something there. I just realized that after being on this earth for 58 years, unless you meet me in person, the only 'verifiable evidence' of my existence are opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculations. Anyone could make a Passport, driver license and a birth certificate, then claim that his parents are dead, so these fake ID's "is all I got, .. take it or leave it!?"

I choose to leave it. Has anyone accepted the tale as truthful and as proof that demons exist? It does not seem to have convinced anyone here.

Because even a hint of agreement with me would warrant them to be BANNED.

Many of us are not inclined to accept "take my word for it" regarding matters of significance or importance. This "skepticism" seems to mystify, befuddle and confuse those who are inclined to base their life or views on what they are told about or what they have come to believe about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities and events.

And you know I agree with you on that as strongly as anyone else here. No one, .. and I mean NO ONE should accept the old "take my word for it" stunt,

Thank you. I do not take your word that demons exist and/or that you have experienced such things. I have no way of knowing if you even think the tale is true.

LOL, .. don't worry, no one really believes me either, even my co worker refused to talk about it ever again.
I mean look at where peoples faith is? Even after you guys slam the religious symbol E=mc2 in peoples faces and tell them it means that "mass in our universe has so much energy, that the energy from any mass could propel itself 186,282 times faster than the speed of light, or c2 .. and then in the same breath sell them the idea that we have an energy crisis, so fear not my friend, you can 'absolutely, positively, without any question' be sure that no truth, especially the revelation of our Creator as revealed in the Bible and through science will ever be accepted.

You know why? Because they know deep down that admitting to this knowledge would separate them from their divine god of this earth who divines to them exactly what they want to hear.

As sad as this makes me, and as angry it makes me watching them die so willingly an agonizing death by such a poor and obvious scam as this Cancer Awareness scam is, and jumping into any war which was obviously caused by their very own leedahs, .. I have to admit evil has won, and Christians tie their yellow ribbons on that old Oak tree in victory and support!

Here is another meaningless verse for Christians;
Mark 13:13
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

You know how Christians interpret this? They think that when they serve in this Nazi One World army and they go in to terrorize the Muslims and blow them all back to the stone age, and they get hate and anger in return from those they terrorize, they take this as being hated for Christ's Sake! "Oh, because they are Muslim who don't believe that Jesus is god like we do, so this is why they hate and persecute us!"

Destructive Doctrines

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Don't worry Z, Diviners will interpret this to mean: "Not 8 people, but maybe it means 8 billion, because everyone who confess with his mouth that Jesus is god, a deity who divines through us diviners, will be saved! And our greatest Diviner Billy Graham told us that even those who don't confess that Jesus is god, they are really thinking it, only they don't know it. But god knows it, .. and every time they sacrifice a baby to Baal or Lucifer, God takes it that they did it for Him. God is just loving like that!"

Besides, even if all fails Christians believe that one out of two will be beamed, .. sorry, raptured out of here, .. which is what, 3.5 billion people? That would include all Christians and at least half the Muslims!? So they better hold on to their swords, the drones and any weapons of mass destruction including all the yellow ribbons they can carry on the rapture trip, because it looks like their heart will go on .. warring.

[KenRU]

OP "I am not a Theist & not religious but I believe in God" - as posted by Zzyzx

Just to clarify things, how about; "I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'"

This just sounds like a vain attempt to elevate your belief system above all others. No theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created".

Yes, most little children don't believe Santa Claus was created either.

I don't have a 'belief system' which is religion that creates god/gods. I have found our Creator God outside of the tens of thousands of religions that create their own God/gods and the stories that go along with them. I know our Creator through scientific observation, by observing and taking note of the difference between our brain, and our mind.

We have debated this before, and you have yet to show anything remotely substantial to further your argument.

You believe in the god presented in the bible, therefore you have a belief system. You don’t have to acknowledge it, but by all definitions, logic, thought experiments, semantics and common sense, you do.

… My mind, your mind is infinite and eternal, and it can create and be aware of himself, so our mind must be from God our Creator. Why? Because the mind Is, both eternal and infinite and you cannot create eternal and infinite, and that is the only true explanation for a Creator without having to deal with infinite regress.

The mind being eternal is pure guesswork on your part. I’ll even argue its fantasy.

The fact that the mind can create something (examples exhibited in nature all the time) is not an argument that proves (it doesn’t even warrant the conclusion, imo) that the mind is eternal.

You have failed to make your point. Again.

You say; no theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created"? Well let's see if that is true, or even possible? …

All of those examples and you still missed (intentionally?) my point. The fact that many gods from mythology have an origin story was irrelevant to my point. Your original line read as follows:
“I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'�

Aren’t you clearly stating that the other gods are man-made? If so, then why would you talk about mythological origin stories of gods when you know that wasn’t my point, nor was it even what YOU were talking about?

So you're suggesting that all those studying theology don't believe that any of these god/gods were created by man? That every one of them is as real as the other?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based upon your statement that you don’t believe or serve a god created by a religion.

And if you believe in a god (including the god of the bible), then theology is exactly how your faith is studied.

You say; "You serve this god", .. which God? There are over 40,000 different version of gods, all derived from the Bible by those religious people who spend all their time and devote their lives in creating gods.

You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question.

So please, .. tell me which God are you referring to that I worship?

The god of the bible.

Saying that: "Your god is one of those 40,000 Bible gods, so there!" doesn't mean He is, as I have shown many times in many different ways.

Baseless assertion.

Your assertion above could be said by the follower of any other religion, and therefore is no different than someone saying: my religion is the true one, all others are wrong.

So, no, your statement does not clarify anything.

Yes, any one of the hundreds of thousands of religions could say "my religion is the true one, all others are wrong", and they could also say: "My god/gods are the true one" or that "Lucifer is the true god" or "Ranginui, the Sky Father, and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother are the Creators of the universe", .. but to prove this by evidence with substance is another thing.

We agree. Unfortunately, what you and I consider proof is vastly different. In fact, I would argue they are virtually polar opposites.

[arian]

OP "I am not a Theist & not religious but I believe in God" - as posted by Zzyzx

Just to clarify things, how about; "I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'"

This just sounds like a vain attempt to elevate your belief system above all others. No theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created".

Yes, most little children don't believe Santa Claus was created either.

I don't have a 'belief system' which is religion that creates god/gods. I have found our Creator God outside of the tens of thousands of religions that create their own God/gods and the stories that go along with them. I know our Creator through scientific observation, by observing and taking note of the difference between our brain, and our mind.

We have debated this before, and you have yet to show anything remotely substantial to further your argument.

You have to have a scientific mind, not a sci-fientific one. Trekies have a hard time differentiating Klingons from employees at the DMV, so I really don't know any other way to get your mind back to reality so we could both observe our world around us instead of seeing it through the eyes of your religious beliefs!?!?

You believe in the god presented in the bible, therefore you have a belief system. You don’t have to acknowledge it, but by all definitions, logic, thought experiments, semantics and common sense, you do.

Yes I do, but He is not of the created gods in theology, or any of the Deities you keep imagining Him to be as taught by your theist/atheist doctrines.

For instance you believe you are an evolving animal, an ape right? You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it. And I could even show you that my DNA says I'm a human and not an animal. Even common sense tells you that if I was an animal, I couldn't go in to most public places, .. but you will continue to argue this till Kingdom-come; 'You are an animal arian, an ape, so accept it!'

… My mind, your mind is infinite and eternal, and it can create and be aware of himself, so our mind must be from God our Creator. Why? Because the mind Is, both eternal and infinite and you cannot create eternal and infinite, and that is the only true explanation for a Creator without having to deal with infinite regress.

The mind being eternal is pure guesswork on your part. I’ll even argue its fantasy.

The fact that the mind can create something (examples exhibited in nature all the time) is not an argument that proves (it doesn’t even warrant the conclusion, imo) that the mind is eternal.

You have failed to make your point. Again.

Sigh, .. yes, I guess it's all fantasy, like how I fantasize being a human and refuse to accept being just a dumb animal, and my cousins apes. But don't you see that fantasy can only exist in the mind?

You say; no theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created"? Well let's see if that is true, or even possible? …

All of those examples and you still missed (intentionally?) my point. The fact that many gods from mythology have an origin story was irrelevant to my point. Your original line read as follows:
“I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'�

Aren’t you clearly stating that the other gods are man-made? If so, then why would you talk about mythological origin stories of gods when you know that wasn’t my point, nor was it even what YOU were talking about?

Yes, .. go on?

So you're suggesting that all those studying theology don't believe that any of these god/gods were created by man? That every one of them is as real as the other?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based upon your statement that you don’t believe or serve a god created by a religion.

Here is a theology lesson on divine beings, man made gods;

Dictionary of Bible themes:
8747 false gods

Any gods other than the Lord himself. Some of these divinities took the form of images, others were mythical. Some Israelites became involved in idolatrous worship of such gods. The book of Acts records attempts to deify human beings.

False gods associated with foreign nations in the OT

Amon, the chief god of Egypt See also Jer 46:25

Asherah, a Canaanite goddess Ex 34:13-14 Asherah was the consort of El, the chief Canaanite god. Wooden poles, perhaps carved in her image, were often set up in her honour and placed near other pagan objects of worship. See also Dt 7:5; Jdg 6:25-30 Gideon destroys an Asherah pole; 1Ki 14:15,23; 1Ki 15:13; 1Ki 16:33; 1Ki 18:19 Elijah summons 400 prophets of Asherah to Mount Carmel. King Josiah’s reforms: 2Ki 23:4-7,13-16
Isa 27:9; Jer 17:2; Mic 5:14

Ashtoreth, a goddess of war and fertility Jdg 2:12-13 Ashtoreth, the consort of Baal, was associated with the evening star and was worshipped as Ishtar in Babylon and as Athtart in Aram. To the Greeks she was Astarte or Aphrodite and to the Romans, Venus. See also Jdg 10:6; 1Sa 7:3-4; 1Sa 12:10; 1Sa 31:10; 1Ki 11:5,33

Baal, a Canaanite and Phoenician god of fertility and rain Jdg 2:10-13 Baal, meaning “lord�, was pictured standing on a bull, a popular symbol of fertility and strength. Baal was associated with Asherah and Ashtoreth, goddesses of fertility.

Baal-Zebub, a popular deity of the Philistines Mt 12:24 pp Mk 3:22 pp Lk 11:15 Beelzebub is the Greek form of the Hebrew name “Baal-Zebub�, meaning “lord of the flies�. See also 2Ki 1:1-6,16-17

Bel, the chief deity of Babylon Isa 46:1 Bel was another name for the sun god, Marduk. Nebo, the god of learning and writing was the son of Marduk. See also Jer 50:2; Jer 51:44

Chemosh, the chief god of Moab 1Ki 11:7 See also Nu 21:29; 1Ki 11:33; 2Ki 23:13; Jer 48:7,13,46

Dagon, worshipped in Babylonia and Philistia Jdg 16:23 See also 1Sa 5:2-7; 1Ch 10:10

Molech, the chief deity of Ammon 1Ki 11:4-5 See also Lev 18:21 The practice of sacrificing children to Molech was common in Phoenicia and the region; Lev 20:2-5; 1Ki 11:7,33; 2Ki 23:10 Josiah destroyed the area where the altars for child sacrifice were located; 2Ki 23:13; Isa 57:9; Jer 32:35; Jer 49:1,3; Zep 1:5; Ac 7:43

Tammuz, a Babylonian fertility god Eze 8:14

The worship of false gods was a snare to God’s people

Their worship included disgusting rites 1Ki 14:23-24; 1Ki 19:18; Jer 7:31; Hos 13:2

Numerous attempts were made to stop the worship of Baal and other false gods Jdg 6:28-32; 1Ki 18:17-40 See also 2Ki 10:18-28; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ki 23:4-5,13

Attempts to stop false worship proved unsuccessful 2Ki 21:3 The word “Baal� was not orginally a proper name but came to be used as such. See also 2Ch 28:1-4; Hos 13:1-2

Warnings against and condemnation of, the worship of false gods

Ps 40:4; Da 3:29 Nebuchadnezzar came to realise the foolishness of worshipping false gods See also Ps 4:2; Jer 13:25; Jer 16:19; Am 2:4; Zep 1:4

The first Christians were confronted with the worship of Greek and Roman deities

Zeus and Hermes Ac 14:12 Zeus was the patron god of the city of Lystra and his temple was there. Paul was identified as the god Hermes (the Roman Mercury), Zeus’attendant and spokesman.

Artemis Ac 19:24-28 Artemis was the Greek name for the Roman goddess, Diana.

Castor and Pollux See also Ac 28:11 the two “sons of Zeus�, regarded as the guardian deities of sailors

Attempts to deify human beings
Ac 12:21-22; Ac 14:12-15; Ac 28:6

OK, again, so which of the Bible gods/deities are you referring to? I was revealing our Lord God, the only one possible as we can observe it through science with a rational mind.
But first you have to be human, a man created in Gods image and not believe you are an animal.

And if you believe in a god (including the god of the bible), then theology is exactly how your faith is studied.

You say; "You serve this god", .. which God? There are over 40,000 different version of gods, all derived from the Bible by those religious people who spend all their time and devote their lives in creating gods.

You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question.

Really? So you won't even look at all the Biblically related gods I posted above? So you are sticking with: "You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question."

Is that fair? I looked through endless pages of article after article, from stories explaining cave paintings to how fossils change from one species into another, but you won't examine all the gods related to the Bible? "Yours is a Bible god arian, period ,, end of speculation!" .. oh well..

So please, .. tell me which God are you referring to that I worship?

The god of the bible.

LOL, .. which.. oh never mind.

Saying that: "Your god is one of those 40,000 Bible gods, so there!" doesn't mean He is, as I have shown many times in many different ways.

Baseless assertion.

Yeah, nice debating with you too KenRU.

Your assertion above could be said by the follower of any other religion, and therefore is no different than someone saying: my religion is the true one, all others are wrong.

So, no, your statement does not clarify anything.

Yes, any one of the hundreds of thousands of religions could say "my religion is the true one, all others are wrong", and they could also say: "My god/gods are the true one" or that "Lucifer is the true god" or "Ranginui, the Sky Father, and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother are the Creators of the universe", .. but to prove this by evidence with substance is another thing.

We agree. Unfortunately, what you and I consider proof is vastly different. In fact, I would argue they are virtually polar opposites.

Yes, as sad as it makes my heart feel, I have to agree; that where you get your evidence from and my scientific observations are vastly different, virtually polar opposites. This just goes to prove that religious fairytales and honest scientific observations that consider everything just don't mix.

If you insist from your religious upbringing that I am an animal of the ape family, and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

Thanks for posting my friend.

[KenRU]

OP "I am not a Theist & not religious but I believe in God" - as posted by Zzyzx

Just to clarify things, how about; "I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'"

This just sounds like a vain attempt to elevate your belief system above all others. No theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created".

Yes, most little children don't believe Santa Claus was created either.

I don't have a 'belief system' which is religion that creates god/gods. I have found our Creator God outside of the tens of thousands of religions that create their own God/gods and the stories that go along with them. I know our Creator through scientific observation, by observing and taking note of the difference between our brain, and our mind.

We have debated this before, and you have yet to show anything remotely substantial to further your argument.

You have to have a scientific mind, not a sci-fientific one. Trekies have a hard time differentiating Klingons from employees at the DMV, so I really don't know any other way to get your mind back to reality so we could both observe our world around us instead of seeing it through the eyes of your religious beliefs!?!?

You could start by actually providing evidence.

Oh, and I like Star Trek. And, while I have no problem differentiating between a DMV worker and a Klingon, I am beginning to suspect that you might not be from this world after all.

You believe in the god presented in the bible, therefore you have a belief system. You don’t have to acknowledge it, but by all definitions, logic, thought experiments, semantics and common sense, you do.

Yes I do, but He is not of the created gods in theology, or any of the Deities you keep imagining Him to be as taught by your theist/atheist doctrines.

Please provide proof that differentiates your religion from the others as being the correct one.

For instance you believe you are an evolving animal, an ape right? You see I am NOT an animal,

Biology, genetics, dictionaries, and many other fields of study assert otherwise. They are all wrong, and Arian is right. Right?

And I could even show you that my DNA says I'm a human and not an animal.

Humans and Chimps are 96% the same genetically.

Link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... genes.html

.. but you will continue to argue this till Kingdom-come; 'You are an animal arian, an ape, so accept it!'

No, I’d want you to actually read the evidence, then decide for yourself.

… My mind, your mind is infinite and eternal, and it can create and be aware of himself, so our mind must be from God our Creator. Why? Because the mind Is, both eternal and infinite and you cannot create eternal and infinite, and that is the only true explanation for a Creator without having to deal with infinite regress.

The mind being eternal is pure guesswork on your part. I’ll even argue its fantasy.

The fact that the mind can create something (examples exhibited in nature all the time) is not an argument that proves (it doesn’t even warrant the conclusion, imo) that the mind is eternal.

You have failed to make your point. Again.

Sigh, .. yes, I guess it's all fantasy, like how I fantasize being a human and refuse to accept being just a dumb animal, and my cousins apes. But don't you see that fantasy can only exist in the mind?

Very true. Now show how the mind and brain are separable please.

You say; no theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created"? Well let's see if that is true, or even possible? …

All of those examples and you still missed (intentionally?) my point. The fact that many gods from mythology have an origin story was irrelevant to my point. Your original line read as follows:
“I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'�

Aren’t you clearly stating that the other gods are man-made? If so, then why would you talk about mythological origin stories of gods when you know that wasn’t my point, nor was it even what YOU were talking about?

Yes, .. go on?

Actually you were going to show how that list was relevant to the point you were making. Or, was that just an unavoidable tangent/rant?

So you're suggesting that all those studying theology don't believe that any of these god/gods were created by man? That every one of them is as real as the other?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based upon your statement that you don’t believe or serve a god created by a religion.

Here is a theology lesson on divine beings, man made gods;

Dictionary of Bible themes:
8747 false gods

…

OK, again, so which of the Bible gods/deities are you referring to?

I was referring to your god, then you went off on an unrelated tangent.

I was revealing our Lord God, the only one possible as we can observe it through science with a rational mind.

Please show how this god can be observed.

But first you have to be human, a man created in Gods image and not believe you are an animal.

Please show how (despite the fact that both can be true) this prevents one from understanding your point.

And if you believe in a god (including the god of the bible), then theology is exactly how your faith is studied.

You say; "You serve this god", .. which God? There are over 40,000 different version of gods, all derived from the Bible by those religious people who spend all their time and devote their lives in creating gods.

You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question.

Really? So you won't even look at all the Biblically related gods I posted above? So you are sticking with: "You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question."

Is that fair?

How is it not? You have yet to show how your version of the god of the bible has any more evidence to support that he exists then say the god of Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc.

I looked through endless pages of article after article, from stories explaining cave paintings to how fossils change from one species into another, but you won't examine all the gods related to the Bible? "Yours is a Bible god arian, period ,, end of speculation!" .. oh well..

Nice attempt at derailing the point. You took issue with my assertion that you serve a god of the bible, and theology is how your faith is studied. If you care to address the point I made, go right ahead. The rest is an unnecessary red herring.

So please, .. tell me which God are you referring to that I worship?

The god of the bible.

LOL, .. which.. oh never mind.

If it is an issue for you, then why don’t you tell me which god of the bible you serve?

Saying that: "Your god is one of those 40,000 Bible gods, so there!" doesn't mean He is, as I have shown many times in many different ways.

Baseless assertion.

Yeah, nice debating with you too KenRU.

Wait, perhaps I misunderstood. You were saying that your god doesn’t exist? I'm confused by the statement above.

Your assertion above could be said by the follower of any other religion, and therefore is no different than someone saying: my religion is the true one, all others are wrong.

So, no, your statement does not clarify anything.

Yes, any one of the hundreds of thousands of religions could say "my religion is the true one, all others are wrong", and they could also say: "My god/gods are the true one" or that "Lucifer is the true god" or "Ranginui, the Sky Father, and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother are the Creators of the universe", .. but to prove this by evidence with substance is another thing.

We agree. Unfortunately, what you and I consider proof is vastly different. In fact, I would argue they are virtually polar opposites.

Yes, as sad as it makes my heart feel, I have to agree; that where you get your evidence from and my scientific observations are vastly different, virtually polar opposites. This just goes to prove that religious fairytales and honest scientific observations that consider everything just don't mix.

You forgot to mention ignoring mountains of evidence as well.

If you insist from your religious upbringing ..

Which was a Catholic one.

… that I am an animal of the ape family,

Which dictionaries, biologists, and genetic evidence all say is true.

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

-all the best

[arian]

You have to have a scientific mind, not a sci-fientific one. Trekies have a hard time differentiating Klingons from employees at the DMV, so I really don't know any other way to get your mind back to reality so we could both observe our world around us instead of seeing it through the eyes of your religious beliefs!?!?

You could start by actually providing evidence.

Oh, and I like Star Trek. And, while I have no problem differentiating between a DMV worker and a Klingon, I am beginning to suspect that you might not be from this world after all.

You know my friend, I am honestly beginning to think that myself, I just don't belong here on this earth. The more I read about these, .. these Klingons, I mean I honestly don't know what else to call them, claiming to have created mini parallel universe at the LHC has just about put me out of this universe. What's even worse is that no one is asking any questions, millions of scientists are just clapping their hands and throwing kisses like seals at Sea World. Hello, anyone there?
In 'nothing' I could understand if the Big bang didn't make any noise, but in air, in our tiny earths atmosphere? It should of been the Big-BOOOM and the mother of it.

Well thank God you can still differentiate a DMV worker from a Klingon, but I tell you that can change. Hey, when you go out at night and look out in space and start to see red-shifting to white, get some help. Don't let them take you man. They'll drill hole in your head and sexually abuse you, .. wait, I believe they are here on earth already disguised as ISIS warriors, they drill holes in peoples skulls and sexually abuse the women folk the same way they do in their ships. I knew it! They did create a parallel universe and these darn Klingons are coming through the black holes! It's ISIS!

You believe in the god presented in the bible, therefore you have a belief system. You don’t have to acknowledge it, but by all definitions, logic, thought experiments, semantics and common sense, you do.

Yes I do, but He is not of the created gods in theology, or any of the Deities you keep imagining Him to be as taught by your theist/atheist doctrines.

Please provide proof that differentiates your religion from the others as being the correct one.

I have found scientific evidence of our Creator, does that sound like a 'religious' claim? Exactly.

Do I communicate with demons through divinations to get divine insight, and call them my God? Exactly, .. I can differentiate between demons and our Eternal Creator who is Spirit/Mind.

What do you and Evolutionists believe? It is that you are an evolving ape who has a brain that mimics a mind which you could download on disk, right? I can show you billion dollar programs that are ongoing because they actually believe in this, including our gay President and his queen, and many UN world leaders. I bet they are mass producing them 'genderless' CHAPPiE suits as we speak!

For instance you believe you are an evolving animal, an ape right? You see I am NOT an animal,

Biology, genetics, dictionaries, and many other fields of study assert otherwise. They are all wrong, and Arian is right. Right?

Wait, .. you are literally scaring me (well kind of), are you saying that if I drop dead at the supermarket, that a genetics expert and a Biologist would check me out, announce me dead and call in for a; "Clean up on isle 4, another dead animal carcass, that's the third this week!"
Or if I search todays new Dictionaries, that I would find under 'animal';

animal
verb
Odon, aka arian a eukaryotic organisms of the kingdom Animalia as found on isle 4

And I could even show you that my DNA says I'm a human and not an animal.

Humans and Chimps are 96% the same genetically.

Link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... genes.html

Oh thank God it dropped;

ScienceMuseums.org -
Our closest animal relatives are the great apes: chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas. About 98% of the DNA in your genes is exactly the same as in chimpanzees, making you as closely related to a chimp as horses are to zebras.

2 more % from this Dictionary and they'd lock me in a zoo! That's it, I ain't going near Africa, or any jungle, climb a tree! As of today, I'm not eating any bananas either, and I'll make a resolution to shave EVERY DAY of my life!
98%, .. I mean what, that's like 6-7 bananas away from being a full blown chimp? What is even more scary is that I have green eyes! Does the name Caesar ring a bell anyone?

.. but you will continue to argue this till Kingdom-come; 'You are an animal arian, an ape, so accept it!'

No, I’d want you to actually read the evidence, then decide for yourself.

Whaaa? Oh hell no, the more evidence I read about Evolution, the more I feel I should be locked up in a cage! I mean it took billions of years to get me to a human-animal, a human-ape-chimp, and now a few bananas could throw me back to full blown chimp. I ain't reading any more evidence, you guys are crazy, gonna make me have nightmares!
It's bad enough that every time I hear a car backfire, I jump thinking; "EEgad, .. hey did it! Those crazies at the LHC created a Big bang!"

The mind being eternal is pure guesswork on your part. I’ll even argue its fantasy.
The fact that the mind can create something (examples exhibited in nature all the time) is not an argument that proves (it doesn’t even warrant the conclusion, imo) that the mind is eternal.

You have failed to make your point. Again.

Sigh, .. yes, I guess it's all fantasy, like how I fantasize being a human and refuse to accept being just a dumb animal, and my cousins apes. But don't you see that fantasy can only exist in the mind?

Very true. Now show how the mind and brain are separable please.

Honestly, .. I believe I could teach Dian Fosse's apes to speak human, before I can teach a human who believes he's an ape to understand that the brain is no different than his Gluteus Maximus when it comes to reasoning.
Well, .. actually that was before I found evidence just how close I am to being a chimp, so there is no way I would spend any time with one. The smell alone from the monkeys environment could raise that 98% to 100%, and even though I don't believe in evolution, I figure; "Hey, why take the chance?" .. right?

You say; no theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created"? Well let's see if that is true, or even possible? …

All of those examples and you still missed (intentionally?) my point. The fact that many gods from mythology have an origin story was irrelevant to my point. Your original line read as follows:
“I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'�

Aren’t you clearly stating that the other gods are man-made? If so, then why would you talk about mythological origin stories of gods when you know that wasn’t my point, nor was it even what YOU were talking about?

Yes, .. go on?

Actually you were going to show how that list was relevant to the point you were making. Or, was that just an unavoidable tangent/rant?

.. yes, I'm listening?

See, how does it feel to be ignored on everything you say? Only I say ten times more than your general quick comment. And we know why that is, don't we? The more someone speaks, the more evident their intentions. That's why we have "The Right to remain Silent!"
But I'm not afraid, because can jump to any relativistic point and speak, for the truth is always truth no matter which perspective it is told from. I can even joke and reveal the truth, I'm serious!

So you're suggesting that all those studying theology don't believe that any of these god/gods were created by man? That every one of them is as real as the other?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based upon your statement that you don’t believe or serve a god created by a religion.

Here is a theology lesson on divine beings, man made gods;

Dictionary of Bible themes:
8747 false gods ...

OK, again, so which of the Bible gods/deities are you referring to?

I was referring to your god, then you went off on an unrelated tangent.

OK, I think I understand you, I see a pattern here; So if I prove my point in revealing the relationship between our mind and our Creator the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am", your mind goes blank, as if I didn't say anything!
Yep, that's exactly what happens to Christians when I debate the Trinity-gods doctrine, or their deity gods from a true Biblical perspective to them, all of a sudden their mind goes blank.

It is the result of brain washing, as in religious indoctrinations.

I was revealing our Lord God, the only one possible as we can observe it through science with a rational mind.

Please show how this god can be observed.

hahaha, .. SEE what I mean? Come on, you really can't deny it now! And this is not just you, but read Z's "Undeniable scientific evidence of the Creator" post, same with everyone there, it just wouldn't click because you guys search what I said in your brains memory, and it doesn't make any sense, you never heard anything like that, not from such a Gods-Eye View perspective. The same with Einstein's theory of relativity, it is so easy for me especially special relativity, that it is senseless, baseless assumptions without any merit.

Oh well, maybe God will drop those scales from your eyes, but then there is always the possibility that the last thing you want in your life now is to have "Undeniable evidence of our Creator" I don't know how much you have invested in these beliefs, but the possibility is getting very high that you are all, or at least most of you are refusing to accept the things I say. I know that when I talk to Jews about God, especially Jesus Christ, their entire facial expression change, and they literally get mad. Many just walk away.

But first you have to be human, a man created in Gods image and not believe you are an animal.

Please show how (despite the fact that both can be true) this prevents one from understanding your point.

Come on man, .. how can both be true? These are polar opposite views, .. which means you really are not positive you are an evolving ape?

I would NEVER defend with such vigor as you guys defend Evolution and this ridiculous BB theory if I was not 101% positive that it was true. Or at least 100%

I mean I just recently learned this stuff and it all sounds so childish, like a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum, I kid you not. I make fun of it using definitions from the actual claimed theories, do I sound like I don't understand it? You guys have tried me every way possible, so what gives?

I reaffirm that what I said regarding the Mind, and how it relates to knowing our Creator is absolutely, positively and undeniably true. My understanding of 'nothing' is just as true, my understanding of the Son of God who came to earth is true, and I truly believe that no honest debater could change these beliefs of mine because they are fact and true.

As for me, I am an idiot, a fool, a good for nothing unschooled dog, but on these things I would put my life on it.

Hey KenRU, please tell me in all honesty (if you wish to PM me would be fine too) what I would do or say if you accepted the facts that I hope you see I truly believe in that I presented to you so far?
Do you think;
It's it for gain?
for fame?
for some religious organization I belong to?
so I could tell you guys; ha-ha nye-nye, you were wrong and I was right?
or give me other reasons?

Really? So you won't even look at all the Biblically related gods I posted above? So you are sticking with: "You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question."

Is that fair?

How is it not? You have yet to show how your version of the god of the bible has any more evidence to support that he exists then say the god of Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc.

Its in my explanation of Eternal, Infinite, Mind, the true meaning of 'nothing', and how the Bible supports and fits in with this understanding. I present the One and Only Creator possible logically, rationally scientifically, and as you can see, it is not the god/gods any other religion claim they could not prove scientifically.

Have you ever heard such an explanation, so many different ways of our un-created Creator as I have given on this forum?

And this is NOTHING to what else I know. And I honestly ask you to be careful, I believe in THE real God, our Creator, and as rotten as I can be at times, He loves me, and I have seen how He saved me hundreds of times. I know I can be gullible at times, but in that weakness, God is my strength. I say that as a warning, please don't take that weakness for granted, you are messing with God, and the last thing I would wish is Gods anger upon you.

I looked through endless pages of article after article, from stories explaining cave paintings to how fossils change from one species into another, but you won't examine all the gods related to the Bible? "Yours is a Bible god arian, period ,, end of speculation!" .. oh well..

Nice attempt at derailing the point. You took issue with my assertion that you serve a god of the bible, and theology is how your faith is studied. If you care to address the point I made, go right ahead. The rest is an unnecessary red herring.

Is that why you cut out all the Bible gods I listed? Did I not make my point Chrystal clear about theology that studies all those gods? The toy box example? Are you playing with me KenRU? I know well what is being mocked, we been debating long enough where I shared my past, so don't mock me by making me repeat myself over and over again, even though deep down I know you are doing it, for some reason when I know it's intentional it feels like getting spit in the face again.

I take everything you say with good intent, that maybe you really don't understand. or maybe I didn't make myself clear? But I cannot deny the pattern anymore.

So please, .. tell me which God are you referring to that I worship?

The god of the bible.

LOL, .. which.. oh never mind.

If it is an issue for you, then why don’t you tell me which god of the bible you serve?

The One I keep bolding, and mention at least 3 times in each post, .. no clue right?

Saying that: "Your god is one of those 40,000 Bible gods, so there!" doesn't mean He is, as I have shown many times in many different ways.

Baseless assertion.

Yeah, nice debating with you too KenRU.

Wait, perhaps I misunderstood. You were saying that your god doesn’t exist? I'm confused by the statement above.

Man, how could you say that the God I claim to present with scientific evidence is the one I believe doesn't exist?

Yes, as sad as it makes my heart feel, I have to agree; that where you get your evidence from and my scientific observations are vastly different, virtually polar opposites. This just goes to prove that religious fairytales and honest scientific observations that consider everything just don't mix.

You forgot to mention ignoring mountains of evidence as well.

Yes, and it is quickly surpassing the mountain of evidence for Santa Claus and Unicorns. We debated those evidences remember? What some people think happened billions of years ago that evolved bacteria to ape-men, in my book does not count for evidence. Just because there are mountains of assumptions built on those unobserved stories don't count as scientific observation either.

If you insist from your religious upbringing ..

Which was a Catholic one.

That explains a lot!

… that I am an animal of the ape family,

Which dictionaries, biologists, and genetic evidence all say is true.

Yes, every Mormon biologist, genetic evidencers and Mormon Dictionaries will support that Joseph Smith is God living on the planet Colob. I'm sure there are cave paintings and golden ancient tablets written by Jesus Himself by now to prove it also.

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

Except the One, the Creator. He Is, as in Eternal un-created one possible, remember?

[KenRU]

You believe in the god presented in the bible, therefore you have a belief system. You don’t have to acknowledge it, but by all definitions, logic, thought experiments, semantics and common sense, you do.

Yes I do, but He is not of the created gods in theology, or any of the Deities you keep imagining Him to be as taught by your theist/atheist doctrines.

Please provide proof that differentiates your religion from the others as being the correct one.

I have found scientific evidence of our Creator, does that sound like a 'religious' claim? Exactly.

It does when your proof is nothing more than assertions without evidence.

Do I communicate with demons through divinations to get divine insight, and call them my God? Exactly, .. I can differentiate between demons and our Eternal Creator who is Spirit/Mind.

This most definitely sounds like a religious claim.

For instance you believe you are an evolving animal, an ape right? You see I am NOT an animal,

Biology, genetics, dictionaries, and many other fields of study assert otherwise. They are all wrong, and Arian is right. Right?

Wait, .. you are literally scaring me (well kind of), are you saying that if I drop dead at the supermarket, that a genetics expert and a Biologist would check me out, announce me dead and call in for a; "Clean up on isle 4, another dead animal carcass, that's the third this week!"
Or if I search todays new Dictionaries, that I would find under 'animal';

Well, the dictionary disagrees wit hyou. Perhaps you should argue with them?

4 of the 6 definitions of the word Animal include humans. Please note that I am backing up my argument with facts, while you are not.

Dictionary.com:
noun
1.
any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.
2.
any such living thing other than a human being.
3.
a mammal, as opposed to a fish, bird, etc.
4.
the physical, sensual, or carnal nature of human beings; animality :
the animal in every person.
5.
an inhuman person; brutish or beastlike person:

And I could even show you that my DNA says I'm a human and not an animal.

Humans and Chimps are 96% the same genetically.

Link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... genes.html

.. but you will continue to argue this till Kingdom-come; 'You are an animal arian, an ape, so accept it!'

No, I’d want you to actually read the evidence, then decide for yourself.

Whaaa? Oh hell no, the more evidence I read about Evolution, the more I feel I should be locked up in a cage!

Liking something or not has no bearing on its truth.

You say; no theist believes the god of their chosen religion was "created"? Well let's see if that is true, or even possible? …

All of those examples and you still missed (intentionally?) my point. The fact that many gods from mythology have an origin story was irrelevant to my point. Your original line read as follows:
“I don't believe or serve the god/gods created by the various religions we have today, which they study through 'theology'�

Aren’t you clearly stating that the other gods are man-made? If so, then why would you talk about mythological origin stories of gods when you know that wasn’t my point, nor was it even what YOU were talking about?

Yes, .. go on?

Actually you were going to show how that list was relevant to the point you were making. Or, was that just an unavoidable tangent/rant?

.. yes, I'm listening?

See, how does it feel to be ignored on everything you say? Only I say ten times more than your general quick comment. And we know why that is, don't we? The more someone speaks, the more evident their intentions. That's why we have "The Right to remain Silent!"
But I'm not afraid, because can jump to any relativistic point and speak, for the truth is always truth no matter which perspective it is told from. I can even joke and reveal the truth, I'm serious!

Unfortunately, your lengthy responses consist of zero evidence. Analogies, wishes, anecdotes are not evidence.

So you're suggesting that all those studying theology don't believe that any of these god/gods were created by man? That every one of them is as real as the other?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based upon your statement that you don’t believe or serve a god created by a religion.

Here is a theology lesson on divine beings, man made gods;

Dictionary of Bible themes:
8747 false gods ...

OK, again, so which of the Bible gods/deities are you referring to?

I was referring to your god, then you went off on an unrelated tangent.

OK, I think I understand you, I see a pattern here; So if I prove my point in revealing the relationship between our mind and our Creator the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am", your mind goes blank, as if I didn't say anything!

You failed to prove anything, nor have you even offered up any evidence.

Yep, that's exactly what happens to Christians when I debate the Trinity-gods doctrine, or their deity gods from a true Biblical perspective to them, all of a sudden their mind goes blank.[/quotes]
Perhaps you are numbing their minds with irrelevant tangents?

It is the result of brain washing, as in religious indoctrinations.

Religious indoctrination is definitely at play here.

I was revealing our Lord God, the only one possible as we can observe it through science with a rational mind.

Please show how this god can be observed.

hahaha, .. SEE what I mean? Come on, you really can't deny it now! And this is not just you, but read Z's "Undeniable scientific evidence of the Creator" post, same with everyone there, it just wouldn't click because you guys search what I said in your brains memory, and it doesn't make any sense, you never heard anything like that, not from such a Gods-Eye View perspective. The same with Einstein's theory of relativity, it is so easy for me especially special relativity, that it is senseless, baseless assumptions without any merit.

Oh well, maybe God will drop those scales from your eyes, but then there is always the possibility that the last thing you want in your life now is to have "Undeniable evidence of our Creator" I don't know how much you have invested in these beliefs, but the possibility is getting very high that you are all, or at least most of you are refusing to accept the things I say. I know that when I talk to Jews about God, especially Jesus Christ, their entire facial expression change, and they literally get mad. Many just walk away.

Of course I am not accepting what you say, because you have not presented any evidence at all for your assertions. But, to show you the other side of the coin, you are ignoring what I am saying, Z was saying, and 99.9% of all biologists, geneticists and geologists have to say. Perhaps you should reconsider this argument. If anyone is guilty of sticking one’s head in the sand and ignoring evidence, it is you my friend.

But first you have to be human, a man created in Gods image and not believe you are an animal.

Please show how (despite the fact that both can be true) this prevents one from understanding your point.

Come on man, .. how can both be true? These are polar opposite views, .. which means you really are not positive you are an evolving ape?

See above for definition of animal. The definitions are not mutually exclusive. Or is the dictionary wrong?

I reaffirm that what I said regarding the Mind, and how it relates to knowing our Creator is absolutely, positively and undeniably true.

Only to you. To the rest of the world, evidence is required.

Hey KenRU, please tell me in all honesty (if you wish to PM me would be fine too) what I would do or say if you accepted the facts that I hope you see I truly believe in that I presented to you so far?
Do you think;
It's it for gain?
for fame?
for some religious organization I belong to?
so I could tell you guys; ha-ha nye-nye, you were wrong and I was right?
or give me other reasons?

If you’re asking me why you are defending your position here on this debate forum, then I would wager it is for one of two reasons. 1) You like to debate (as I do) and are here to see if your beliefs can withstand the challenge. That is why I am here. If I can’t defend my position honestly and accurately, then my position needs to be rethought. 2) the thought that you may be wrong is creating insecurity, and you must use any and all arguments to reaffirm your point, regardless of its accuracy or relevancy.

Really? So you won't even look at all the Biblically related gods I posted above? So you are sticking with: "You believe in a god described in the bible. Period. End of speculation, end of point. No other confusing, pointless obfuscation necessary.
Which version of said god of the bible? That's an irrelevant question."

Is that fair?

How is it not? You have yet to show how your version of the god of the bible has any more evidence to support that he exists then say the god of Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc.

Its in my explanation of Eternal, Infinite, Mind, the true meaning of 'nothing', and how the Bible supports and fits in with this understanding. I present the One and Only Creator possible logically, rationally scientifically, and as you can see, it is not the god/gods any other religion claim they could not prove scientifically.

Your claim is just that, a claim, and is no more “proven� or supported by evidence than any other god.

Have you ever heard such an explanation, so many different ways of our un-created Creator as I have given on this forum?

Every religion is different in some manner or other. Variety of creative explanations and logic is not proof.

And I honestly ask you to be careful, I believe in THE real God, our Creator, and as rotten as I can be at times, He loves me, and I have seen how He saved me hundreds of times. I know I can be gullible at times, but in that weakness, God is my strength. I say that as a warning, please don't take that weakness for granted, you are messing with God, and the last thing I would wish is Gods anger upon you.

Thank you for your concern, as misplaced as it may be.

I looked through endless pages of article after article, from stories explaining cave paintings to how fossils change from one species into another, but you won't examine all the gods related to the Bible? "Yours is a Bible god arian, period ,, end of speculation!" .. oh well..

Nice attempt at derailing the point. You took issue with my assertion that you serve a god of the bible, and theology is how your faith is studied. If you care to address the point I made, go right ahead. The rest is an unnecessary red herring.

Is that why you cut out all the Bible gods I listed? Did I not make my point Chrystal clear about theology that studies all those gods?

You did not.

The toy box example? Are you playing with me KenRU?

Nope. I have no idea why you said what you said. It made no sense to me.

I know well what is being mocked, we been debating long enough where I shared my past, so don't mock me by making me repeat myself over and over again, even though deep down I know you are doing it, for some reason when I know it's intentional it feels like getting spit in the face again.

I was not mocking you.

I take everything you say with good intent, that maybe you really don't understand. or maybe I didn't make myself clear? But I cannot deny the pattern anymore.

I could say the same about you. As I have been saying, you seem to go off on unrelated tangents to prove a point (so you think), that only serves to confuse and derail. If you want to make a point, you may need to be more succinct and relevant to the topic at hand.

So please, .. tell me which God are you referring to that I worship?

The god of the bible.

LOL, .. which.. oh never mind.

If it is an issue for you, then why don’t you tell me which god of the bible you serve?

The One I keep bolding, and mention at least 3 times in each post, .. no clue right?

Perfect example. As the readers can see above, you agree that you’ve told me multiple times which god you serve. But when I mention this god, you quip back, “Which god?� just to derail the point being made at that time.

If you’ve told me, and I reference what you told me, why ask again? Hmmm. Speaking of patterns of dishonesty …

If you insist from your religious upbringing ..

Which was a Catholic one.

That explains a lot!

What does it explain?

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

Except the One, the Creator. He Is, as in Eternal un-created one possible, remember?

Still waiting on that evidence, remember?

[arian]

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

I know, you are still waiting for my 'religious interpretation of our Creator, or some Deity, or some 'God-particle', or an image made by man, or one of those gods studied in theology, but all I can tell you is what I have been telling you all along, our Creator God is the Eternal un-created one possible. But how can I show you if you believe that your physical brain is the Creator of your mind? If your brain is the 'Creator' then you have to deal with infinite regress.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

Except the One, the Creator. He Is, as in Eternal un-created one possible, remember?

Still waiting on that evidence, remember?

Sorry, but I will not go into my little toy box full of plastic/wood toy soldiers and tell you; "Here you go KenRU, here they are, all gods, every one of them, and to learn more about each one, you can start by going to different religions and Religious schools, or take a class in 'theology' and they will teach you! Or here are all them creators you want, you can learn more about them in Colleges that offer classes in the Big-bang story, and Evolution!"

I know that's what you want because your religious beliefs will not allow you to accept anything else. But unfortunately for you, I cannot deny all the wonder I have observed through science, and seen/understood God, our Creator.

But then you would have to be born again in the Newness of your mind, but all you acknowledge having is a physical brain, and the impulses sensed by fMRI on the brain as your 'mind' which they will tell billions of people that these impulses can be downloaded on a disc and placed in a CHAPPiE suit, or a Matrix of your own choosing where you can live forever.

Wrong mind, and good luck spending your "Everlasting life" in that matrix, and your CHAPPiE suit!

This will conclude the lesson on religion, theology, Divinations from demons, the Devine/demons, the religions like theism/atheism, Big-Bang Evolution, The Blue-Brain project and the rest I explained throughout these pages.

Here is what I have learned thanks to you gentleman, and any 'genderless' folks who debated with me on this subject:

1. I have learned that any religion that is involved with 'creators' (as in what may have caused the universe and everything in it to exist) will do anything and everything in their power to keep these religious ideas alive, even denying the obvious evidence found in scientific observations.

2. That any religion that denies #1. will defend their god/gods as Creators of the universe denying all scientific evidence of our Creator who is obviously outside of their religious interpretation, and will also deny the Bibles interpretation of our Creator, who is obviously revealed in science AND the Bible, and give the credit to man-made gods created by each religion, and you know that ultimately the credit goes to Devine beings, Lucifer the leader of demons.

My message;
To those religions who belong in #1, "You will never find the 'god-particle' for obvious reasons, the greatest of these is 'infinite regress'. You will continue building on your stories and magic shows of big-bangs, till either everyone just agrees with you, or you kill everyone on earth. I believe that even though others agree to believe your lies, there is this deep feeling of dissatisfaction because the truth will always torment you, and the only way you can live with such torment is if there is no one left but you. But then, the next step is obvious.

Those in #2. the only satisfaction you will get is making up stories that your god/gods are better than their god/gods, and you will continue living the lie, comforted only by the thought: "Well, look how many other religions with their man-made gods out there, and they all worship deities/demons, so ours is no different." And you will use the Billy Graham excuse; "Everyone is going to heaven, even Satan worshipers or those that deny Christ, for wide is the road, .."

Thanks.

[KenRU]

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

I know, you are still waiting for my 'religious interpretation of our Creator, or some Deity, or some 'God-particle', or an image made by man, or one of those gods studied in theology, but all I can tell you is what I have been telling you all along, our Creator God is the Eternal un-created one possible. But how can I show you if you believe that your physical brain is the Creator of your mind? If your brain is the 'Creator' then you have to deal with infinite regress.

If the mind cannot be created by the brain, then how do you explain animals creating in nature?

The brain is not the Creator. The mind is consequence of the brain.

I see no infinite regress.

Actually, you have the infinite regress problem by ascribing everything created to god. You don’t get to escape the issue by saying “all things are created – except god�.

That is special pleading.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

Except the One, the Creator. He Is, as in Eternal un-created one possible, remember?

Still waiting on that evidence, remember?

Sorry, but I will not go into my little toy box full of plastic/wood toy soldiers and tell you; "Here you go KenRU, here they are, all gods, every one of them, and to learn more about each one, you can start by going to different religions and Religious schools, or take a class in 'theology' and they will teach you! Or here are all them creators you want, you can learn more about them in Colleges that offer classes in the Big-bang story, and Evolution!"

I know that's what you want because your religious beliefs will not allow you to accept anything else.

False. I have no religious beliefs. Please show me where I have ever exhibited a religious belief – otherwise please recant.

I am very open to evidence and new ideas. I just hold them all to the same standard of scrutiny. If your evidence is not able to withstand such examination, I submit the issue is then with the evidence provided.

But unfortunately for you, I cannot deny all the wonder I have observed through science, and seen/understood God, our Creator.

I am happy you have found wonder and god in your religion. What you should be taking away from this exchange, though, is not any pity for me, but a better understanding that what you perceive as evidence for god, many others do not. That does not mean that I haven’t found wonder in life. Quite the opposite actually.

Oh, and if nothing else, you should definitely take away one more thing from our exchange, and that is how highly ineffective and confusing it can be to use incorrect or least common definitions of words, and expect others to understand your point, or expect others to not be bothered/annoyed/offended etc by such an action. That is both illogical and foolish.

All the best

[arian]

… and that one god mentioned in the Bible is the same as all the others, who am I to change your religious beliefs?

I never said they are all the same, I said that it was irrelevant for the point we were discussing.

I know, you are still waiting for my 'religious interpretation of our Creator, or some Deity, or some 'God-particle', or an image made by man, or one of those gods studied in theology, but all I can tell you is what I have been telling you all along, our Creator God is the Eternal un-created one possible. But how can I show you if you believe that your physical brain is the Creator of your mind? If your brain is the 'Creator' then you have to deal with infinite regress.

If the mind cannot be created by the brain, then how do you explain animals creating in nature?

The One who gives life, the Spirit of God. A teeny-tiny bit of Gods Spirit pre assigned for each creature, some are given less of abilities, and some more.
In man it's the same thing; some are given less in some areas of abilities and some more, but what is different in man is that they can learn and use their fellow mans abilities, we are not just stuck with what we have been given, like animals.
But most of all, we are encouraged to access the information that is in Our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" - God.

The brain is not the Creator. The mind is consequence of the brain.

I see no infinite regress.

If the brain created the mind (there is no other way to put it), who created the brain? Who, speck? Is the quantum speck the answer to 'everything' for you? The god-particle? Then that is your God and creator, .. 'speck', and stop saying you are not religious. Now who created speck? - see what I mean?

If you say: "'speck' always was", then where is speck IN?
If you say; "speck is in nothing, you don't understand infinite regress, or eternal, or the word infinite, and absolutely, positively you have no idea of what 'nothing' is.

Look, this is the same ideology and belief system as in special relativity. Time dilation, length contraction and weight gain you guys say is caused by the 'relative-to' another object, but as I have explained, then those 'effects' would be experienced relative to trillions of objects out in space, right?
The same with if the mind is the result of the brain, then the mind is also the result of your Gluteus Maximus, and every other muscle in your body.
You have to choose, from what we can observe, or accept religious doctrines and a lot of "We just don't know, so until we do know the facts, we will rest assured on assumptions and make belief.
The problem with this is that (as obvious in the world today) if you stay within religious thinking for too long, especially generation after generation, you will most likely remain trapped within that religion and their doctrine.

Actually, you have the infinite regress problem by ascribing everything created to god. You don’t get to escape the issue by saying “all things are created – except god�.

That is special pleading.

You see how you place God into "all things are created"? Remember my toy-box analogy?
Neither can you place the Infinite along with the finite, that's an 'impossibility' which can only happen in Sci-Fientology, the study and the worship of chaotic, senseless, purposeless, illogical impossibilities.

But they all do have one thing in common. There is no proof they exist.

Except the One, the Creator. He Is, as in Eternal un-created one possible, remember?

Still waiting on that evidence, remember?

Sorry, but I will not go into my little toy box full of plastic/wood toy soldiers and tell you; "Here you go KenRU, here they are, all gods, every one of them, and to learn more about each one, you can start by going to different religions and Religious schools, or take a class in 'theology' and they will teach you! Or here are all them creators you want, you can learn more about them in Colleges that offer classes in the Big-bang story, and Evolution!"

I know that's what you want because your religious beliefs will not allow you to accept anything else.

False. I have no religious beliefs. Please show me where I have ever exhibited a religious belief – otherwise please recant.

I am very open to evidence and new ideas. I just hold them all to the same standard of scrutiny. If your evidence is not able to withstand such examination, I submit the issue is then with the evidence provided.

I recant, .. only I cannot deny the obvious that you are limiting yourself with your religious ideologies. You are trapped, and trapped people who have been trapped for many generations cannot, or maybe feel afraid to experience 'Free thinking'. They remain in chains of darkness (self inflicting ignorance).

I am here to set you free of that, but you do have to understand basic concepts which we keep going over and over again, and for some reason you keep denying!? I say denying because obviously you are one smart and intelligent gentleman, so it cannot be, or I have a hard time assuming that you just can't understand!?

But unfortunately for you, I cannot deny all the wonder I have observed through science, and seen/understood God, our Creator.

I am happy you have found wonder and god in your religion. What you should be taking away from this exchange, though, is not any pity for me, but a better understanding that what you perceive as evidence for god, many others do not. That does not mean that I haven’t found wonder in life. Quite the opposite actually

I never taken a stand that you have not found 'wonder' in life, I can tell by you taking the atheistic side of religion, it is a step towards shedding religious beliefs. But before you get offended, please hear me out, .. please?

KenRU, it is you, McCulloch and Z and all you other atheists that pushed the 'religion wall' against my face, remember? I honestly panicked, as if I couldn't breath. Remember how many 'Warnings' I got? I now realize how precious those warnings were, and how eternally grateful I am that Otseng seen beyond what I was just saying and didn't ban me.

I didn't want to accept that I was preaching what I have been taught, but you guys kept pushing that wall, or walls closer and closer to where I had to strike out.
This forced me to take a good long look at what you guys were saying, and choosing to be honest to myself, I found it was the truth. McCulloch, you Z, and some others really got to me with the 'religious thing', and you guys were right!

Now if you would take the time to go back when I came on, you would see that I really did take a serious look at myself through what you guys said, and I realized I was defending not only my old religion/church doctrine, but I was creating and defending my own new ones. Now as I said, I didn't see this, nor would of I seen it if you guys didn't push those walls of religion up to my nose. As long as I could keep those walls at a distance, (as I see we all do, making up things, twisting things like Scripture interpretations, new ideologies, stories, and other tantrums) I was fine, but I was against some really intelligent and wise opponents, you guys wouldn't budge until I had no other option but to face some hard choices; "Leave this forum, which is not like me to admit to cowardice turn tail and run, or keep it up and I will be banned (as Otseng clearly put it to me once)"

So what I did was stop, and look, I was always good at that, just stare and analyze what was really happening, what is being said, and realized; who am I to rant out attacks against obviously far more educated people than myself, and I did just that. And boy I tell you it changed everything.

I realized that words had been ascribed newer 'more politically correct' or more popular meanings to 'go with the flow' or trend, they were given multiple meanings so much so that one could almost be the opposite of the other.

That adding a few small but critical words could change the entire concept, like when they changed God our Eternal Creator Spirit to a 'Devine' being who resides in the supernatural realm, and after 1,700 years of doing that, hey, every Christian (minus a few that invented new names, and characteristics for God) is praying and worshiping the Creator revealed in the Bible as a Deity/demon. Or plural deities like Legion.

Now I see you are addressing (believe it or not, but I woke this morning with sort of guilty feeling that I have been a little unfair, if not belligerent in my messages) this same thing I was going to address today:

Oh, and if nothing else, you should definitely take away one more thing from our exchange, and that is how highly ineffective and confusing it can be to use incorrect or least common definitions of words, and expect others to understand your point, or expect others to not be bothered/annoyed/offended etc by such an action. That is both illogical and foolish.

You are absolutely right, there is no excuse for the harsh repetitious slogans I have been using lately, and this is anything but gentle. This is my 'upbringing' leaking through, my hard headed asshole-ness that was literally beaten into me, and exactly what the Lord in my dream revealed to me once, not to be like. I admit it is wrong, and that it is offensive, and annoying, .. and I used it to get you guys back for 'pushing those same walls of religion in my face' which as I admit to you was the best thing that happened to me on this Forum, .. growth wise.

But please forgive me, I don't find it illogical, because I honestly, without a shred of doubt see that we, all of us, are being led by thousands of years of indoctrinations. And this is why we allow changes in words and their meanings, even critical ones.

I admit it is futile to just badger each other even with what we believe to be the absolute truth, it has a negative effect, .. oh yea, forum rules explains this, yet we all do it. I will try to seal those rules in my mind and in my heart, .. well I will try to do my best anyways. Again, I sincerely do apologize and ask you and everyone to at least try to find a way to forgive me, .. and sadly, I ask you to forgive me for the ones I'm sure will come up again. Some days can be really rough.

OK KenRU, Z, and the rest, how about we take it from the top, as in the OP; "I am not a theist & not religious, but I believe in God" ?
Thanks.