"I am NOT an animal"

[Zzyzx]

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"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

[Beans]

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"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts."

This is not a response to either moderation though I am surprised to see it was reported (twice even?).

For me, it was painfully obvious the reason this person quoted this specific verse. Had I posted it, I may also have felt no need to expand on it further.

It seems clear that further clarification is needed though. Hopefully I will get this correct on behalf of Beans.

We have a person that bases their beliefs off of the Bible. Due to these beliefs and the claims they make about being made in the image of a god and so on, this person takes issue the biologically descriptive term animal for humans.

Showing how this persons source itself claims that men are beasts is a powerful point, at least from my point of view. Will arian now argue that men are beasts, but not animals?

It served to show how even the imagination of the mods can run wild. LOL.

It was clearly a response to the claim that the Bible speaks nothing of the matter. No interpretation was necessary but for the insistence of rules written inflexibly in stone which on that basis can be impracticable and unreasonable at times.

It is not the mod's fault that the post steps on the toes of such inflexibly rules of justice. They agreed to abide and enforce those inflexible rules. Theirs is not to decide justice as others have formulated inflexible rules to serve as their justice. And their warnings could have been worse, so they obviously tried to be as just about it as the rules they have agreed to enforce might permit. I would say that they did a good job. I commend their well disciplined actions toward the post in light of the complaints they may have received. They did good.

There are at least three possible interpretations I can see for that verse when taken in isolation. One would be that it speaks only to man's sin debased condition. Another is that it speaks to man's reality. And the one I believe is most likely, it speaks to both of those things.

The context reveals something else interesting concerning how man compares to animals:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."

Whether or not the Bible is an authority you must decide for yourself. I have seen others mods state on this site that for certain purposes the Bible is able to be seen as an authority. And that obviously holds true as to it being an authority for what it actually says, when the issue involves that it does or does not say or teach something. To claim otherwise would be like telling a person that he or she has no authority to explain what he or she says and means.

I see that the Bible does teach we are but animals when our faculties for a spiritual relationship are left out of the picture. It is in my opinion ridiculous to think that being the image of God has anything to do with what body we wear for we have no way to comprehend that of God. But we can comprehend his character attributes on a spiritual plane. So how we think and what we do in our bodies can reflect as an image of God.

[DanieltheDragon]

"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

Even as a non-believer, I knew there was something different about humans. Yes, biologically we are similar to animals, especially other mammals of course. But what sets us apart? As Pink Floyd's "Keep Talking" song put it:

For millions of years mankind lived just like the animals
Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination
We learned to talk

Other animals have methods of communicating, but nothing compared to our speech and language. Maybe that's it? (besides the religious reasons of course)

The Lowland streaked tenrec can do something that no other mammal in the world can do stridulation! Does this mean that the Lowland streaked Tenrec is not an animal?

Certainly humans have above average cognitive abilities but we are not necessarily universally superior than other animals in this regard.

Chimmpanzees for example have been demonstrated to have a higher strategic IQ than humans.

As far as Language is concerned Orcas have been shown to have advanced forms of communication that even has dialects. Certainly the question is not whether animals have language but where do we draw the line as to what language is. Orcas also appear to have higher capability for emotional capacity than humans.

We are animals pure and simple. What makes us successful is a blend of opposable thumbs and a large brain. All of which can be found in other animals.

[JoeyKnothead]

How "intellectually superior" is any creature that creates the means to wipe itself off the face of the earth?

[KenRU]

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"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

To me, this is a prime example of ignoring science, data and even the dictionary in favor of one's belief system.

The best Arian was able to reply (at least that I am aware of) when confronted with the dichotomy is with something along the lines of: definitions change and the dictionary is not reliable, all the while ignoring and discounting the genetic evidence.

-all the best

[ttruscott]

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"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

Probably the understanding that the I in the animal body is a self aware intelligent and spiritual person. You think?

Peace, ted

[Goat]

To me, this is a prime example of ignoring science, data and even the dictionary in favor of one's belief system.

The best Arian was able to reply (at least that I am aware of) when confronted with the dichotomy is with something along the lines of: definitions change and the dictionary is not reliable, all the while ignoring and discounting the genetic evidence.

-all the best

I think it is a different problem. I think it is the logical fallacy of equivocation, where two different meanings of the same word are being confused with each other. One is 'being an animal' on a moral/action base, and the other is 'being an animal' on a strictly biological basis. One is a metaphyiscal/philisophical construct, the other is a physical classification.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 25:

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

Probably the understanding that the I in the animal body is a self aware intelligent and spiritual person. You think?

Leaving open the issue of how self-aware and intelligent certain folks really are (strictly clinical terms, and not a dig at theists, as I'm fixing to show).

Clinically as this amateur can tell it, we see in the schizophrenic varying levels of severity, from a mild psychosis on the one end, to workin' up that divorce money on the other'n. I see a certain relation between those who claim to hear the voice of God, and folks like myself, who hear the voice of the "Devil", as it were. If schizophrenia is thought of as a line then, on the one extreme we should expect to find the "God spoke to me" bunch, and folks such as myself on the other end of that line, a-fretting what we get told.

In the most extreme forms of schizophrenia, there's a complete break with reality, a complete loss of "self", such that the schizophrenic may do horrible things to himself, if only to silence the voices in his head. Do we see this in the "god group"? Maybe not the destructive behaviors, but I think it's fair to say that line's a candle on both ends of it, it's just maybe only the one end's been lit right now. I conclude then that there's something to consider regarding the "self-aware" angle as quoted above.

In my own example, I kinda have 'em both. I start out "level" and go one of the two ways. I usually start puffing up and getting all super proud of myself, such that the whole of humanity is beneath my contempt. Not so much for hating 'em, but for how I'm loving me so much. I ride that cloud, in smug arrogance. My metaphorical hair blows in the wind like a movie star with a forty dollar hair cut. Then I crash. Hard. Fast. The world turns dark and cold, and the voices set in. Maybe they're the voices of those I was so far above before. They taunt and holler, and yell and cuss, 'til I'm physically and emotionally drained. I reckon my voices are mean to me 'cause I'm mean there when I get all high falootin'. I don't ever seem to hear praise from the voices. They just don't seem to like me at all.

So on a +10 to -10 scale, where 0 is normal, I figure I run anywhere from a +8 to a -10. I don't tell this for sympathy, that's in the dictionary. I tell it to try to help folks think about all this. I offer my example as my own anecdotal deal there, and your mileage may vary. I may be wrong about all of it, and being as I have my issues, folks're just as well to dismiss anything I have to allow on it.

Conclusions?

About self-aware, how much any of us is any of it, is a fair thing to think on.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 27 by JoeyKnothead]

Thanks Joey.

You have given us a lot to think about. There is a great deal of wisdom in your words. Perhaps we are all on that same continuum to some extent -- and you know and experience more of it than most.

[ytrewq]

From Post 25:

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

Probably the understanding that the I in the animal body is a self aware intelligent and spiritual person. You think?

Leaving open the issue of how self-aware and intelligent certain folks really are (strictly clinical terms, and not a dig at theists, as I'm fixing to show).

Clinically as this amateur can tell it, we see in the schizophrenic varying levels of severity, from a mild psychosis on the one end, to workin' up that divorce money on the other'n. I see a certain relation between those who claim to hear the voice of God, and folks like myself, who hear the voice of the "Devil", as it were. If schizophrenia is thought of as a line then, on the one extreme we should expect to find the "God spoke to me" bunch, and folks such as myself on the other end of that line, a-fretting what we get told.

In the most extreme forms of schizophrenia, there's a complete break with reality, a complete loss of "self", such that the schizophrenic may do horrible things to himself, if only to silence the voices in his head. Do we see this in the "god group"? Maybe not the destructive behaviors, but I think it's fair to say that line's a candle on both ends of it, it's just maybe only the one end's been lit right now. I conclude then that there's something to consider regarding the "self-aware" angle as quoted above.

In my own example, I kinda have 'em both. I start out "level" and go one of the two ways. I usually start puffing up and getting all super proud of myself, such that the whole of humanity is beneath my contempt. Not so much for hating 'em, but for how I'm loving me so much. I ride that cloud, in smug arrogance. My metaphorical hair blows in the wind like a movie star with a forty dollar hair cut. Then I crash. Hard. Fast. The world turns dark and cold, and the voices set in. Maybe they're the voices of those I was so far above before. They taunt and holler, and yell and cuss, 'til I'm physically and emotionally drained. I reckon my voices are mean to me 'cause I'm mean there when I get all high falootin'. I don't ever seem to hear praise from the voices. They just don't seem to like me at all.

So on a +10 to -10 scale, where 0 is normal, I figure I run anywhere from a +8 to a -10. I don't tell this for sympathy, that's in the dictionary. I tell it to try to help folks think about all this. I offer my example as my own anecdotal deal there, and your mileage may vary. I may be wrong about all of it, and being as I have my issues, folks're just as well to dismiss anything I have to allow on it.

Conclusions?

About self-aware, how much any of us is any of it, is a fair thing to think on.

All very interesting. Would it be fair to say that you have provided further evidence that human emotions , feelings and perceptions are not reliable? We already know they are not, but it seems to me you are providing futher evidence by way of personal experience.

And that being so, that there is little credibilty or evidential value in personal claims of a God 'talking' to people?

[FarWanderer]

How "intellectually superior" is any creature that creates the means to wipe itself off the face of the earth?

It's not that we are "smarter" than the other animals so much as that we are more creative.