Signs on demand

[Justin108]

"Judges 6:36 Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised— 37 look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said.� 38 And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew—a bowlful of water.

39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew.� 40 That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew."




"John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!�But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.�

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!� 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.�"




Why does God not answer modern requests for signs?

[Stonez]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

I have often said (and have illustrated in this forum, actually) that those who have made up their minds that God does not exist, or that religion id utterly false, would not believe if God Himself appeared before them.

The excuses I am given for their disbelief are legion...and some quite funny, actually, but they all revolve around the 'I can't trust my senses if something like that happened and indicated that my own opinions are false." theory of evidence.

No When I say wanted to believe, I meant it. I'm completely open to transcendent, mystical, extraordinary experiences. I've had two. Neither during or after did I sense these experiences were of or from a god or God. The thought never crossed my mind until much later, when hearing Theists insist that their proof of God were within a kind of mystical experience.

Funny here I am defending myself to a Theist. I suppose I don't expect to be listened to and 'understood' any better than a Theist explaining themselves to an atheist.

There's those that have the above excuses and attitudes. But what about those of us who were (and remain) genuine? What about those of us who were glad to think there might be a loving God? That was long before I heard the current atheist's rhetoric about the homicidal/genocidal god, back before 9/11/01 at least. I was willing. Why would I lie? I'm only going to NOT impress anyone by admitting that.

And by now it should be obvious I'm not a troll. I suppose it is difficult to understand why a totally willing person would remain untouched, I sure never hear that discussed by Theists anywhere, ever.

I just gave up, and reached a level of peace that is without anger or grief (about God, but his followers are often another story . . .).

If you are not one of those who have...how did I put that again..."that those who have made up their minds that God does not exist, or that religion id utterly false, would not believe if God Himself appeared before them"...then the bit about not believing if God Himself appeared before them doesn't apply to you, does it?

Though I have to admit that there are quite a few of those who claim that they would believe if only God did something utterly spectacular can't seem to come up with something that they couldn't explain away as being caused by something else.

I am particularly intrigued by those who would only believe in a God if He did something so life altering (as in..perhaps..enforcing world peace and eliminating all weapons, for instance) that he FORCES belief by removing all free will.

The problem with that, of course, is pretty basic and encompassed by something Dale Carnegie wrote in 'How to win friends and influence people." Pay attention to the last line:

Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

I figure that, if God exists and He is our Creator, He also knows how our brains work. He designed them that way, evidently; we need to be convinced of our selves, because our own sublime and basic cussedness will ensure that, unless we are willing, OF OURSELVES, to look at a new point of view, no amount of proof...of any sort...will cause us to change our minds about something,

Hmm, I don't know about this? Sometimes the light goes on and your views are changed forever as a result of clear evidence and no amount of trying to ignore it will change the facts...Eventually, you have to confront it.

That's how it was for me changing from being Christian to being atheist. It wasn't a choice...

I've had mystical experiences also but the problem with theists is the way these experience turns into a god story interpreted through ones faith...
I can think of A good example of a friend recently having to change her mind against her will simply because of the evidence...She took photos and in the photos appeared mysterious orbs floating around. She was convinced that god had shown her these orbs because she was praying about a friend seeing them in a church building in his photos and she had seen them in pictures over temples online.
She tells me that she was worshipping god to Christian worship music while driving and she was in the spirit when she pulled over and took these photos and then a car drove past and she said she spiritually felt the environment change and the photos after that no longer had the orbs in them. She was convinced that god had shown her these orbs as a sign to prove god is real to me.

My daughter is a photograph, so I showed her the photos and she just laughed and said, "it's dust reflection". I then checked the net and sure enough, it was dust reflection. So, I told my friend about it and showed her the link and she still said, "Maybe it is but maybe it isn't? It could be what I said it was, a sign from god"...

So, My daughter shook a blanket in the room and took a few pics of me and sure enough, orbs all round me. So, I sent that to my friend, who had given me a big god story about the whole thing and told her, "I must be holy then because these orbs are all round me"...

Obviously she had to agree that she was wrong, regardless of wanting so much for it to be god...

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

It isn't the signs that are the problem. It is the condition of our hearts. Do we need a sign to believe? When Jesus walked the Earth, there were many miraculous signs that Jesus performed, but yet there were those who refused to believe. If we sincerely want to know Jesus, He will reveal himself to those who seek Him.

[ttruscott]

That could be good thing, if it would really make any change for better in skeptics mind. However I don’t think anyone is damned because didn’t believe.

Let me repost the verse since you seemed to have missed it.

Mark 16:16 "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned. "

There is no ambiguity here. Non-believers are condemned.

I must agree.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[Aside: Non-believers are condemned already...so when did this happen? If it happened because we were conceived or born as human (ie in Adam's sin) how is it by our free belief?

And they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son implies that even those who lived afar and never heard of Jesus to believe in His name are condemned...how are we to reconcile this with the love of God?

Obviously, they had their chance to put their faith in Christ or not before they were conceived...pre-earth.

If you accept words that Jesus said and believe your sins are forgiven, then the “punishment� that would come because of the sin, is wiped out. If you don’t accept the forgiveness, then obviously your get what you deserve, because the sin remains.

In order to accept the words of Jesus you need to believe in God.

Again I find scripture that agrees with you: Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Peace, Ted

[Justin108]

I have often said (and have illustrated in this forum, actually) that those who have made up their minds that God does not exist, or that religion id utterly false, would not believe if God Himself appeared before them.

Please, do reillustrate. I would say the inverse is true. Any atheist can give you a clear example of what it would take for them to believe in God. If God did appear before me in a form that is clearly God (I don't know... maybe a giant talking head in the sky?) then yes... I would believe that very instance. If Jesus appeared before me the way he did before John in Revelations, I would believe. If I said "God... if you're there, make my dog talk the way the donkey spoke to Balaam" and my dog started talking to me, saying "Yes, Justin. God does exist" then I would believe in God. I can come up with countless ways in which God can convince me he exists.

But can you give me one example of what it would take to convince you that God does not exist? If you can't then consider yourself a hypocrite.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Well, my personal experience of this is just that, personal. I have to admit, in my pursuit of the spiritual I have placed the God of Christianity in the same position as Gideon and did receive a reply, so I have to admit, in my own personal experiences, God still responds the way He responded to Gideon. Here is a personal testimony, I considered myself a philosophical hippy at one time, smoking weed and backpacking across the country. After contacting the God of Christianity unexpectedly, I still had my issues with weed. So, I decided to confront Him on the issue, for I was just about to call a guy and get some. Praying to God, I stated, "If you want me to stop doing this, then you will bang on my door at 8:30 (it was 8:00 when I began the prayer). Well, like a skeptic (I really wanted to smoke anyway) I waited and watched the door. 8:30 arrives and there is no knock, and satisfied that there was no knock, I called a supplier. Receiving no reply, I left a message, laid back, and fell asleep. Soon after 1:00 in the afternoon someone began banging relentlessly on the door. Waking up, I noticed someone had slipped a key card into the door and was attempting to open it. As the chain caught the door, I released the door and opened it wide to confront whoever was trying to get in. There was nobody out there. Not one person. I met the guy I called earlier later that night (he was my ride to work) and he looked at me and said, "I got your message, and I tried to call you back, but someone at the front desk kept repeating the same words, Sorry, sir, this room does not exist. I called a couple more times and the same thing happened; I even tried to argue with them, but the same voice kept repeating the same words. So, what did you want?" Of course I told him I didn't need anything.

This is a personal testimony, with only one other witness in the room (my wife), so if you are looking for physical evidence, there is none, just my word, but this is an answer to your question through personal testimony (and this is not the only time something like this has taken place in my life). Yet, personal testimony is irrelevant in a debate, and the truth of it is left completely to the one experiencing the event. Nevertheless, this is my truth.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 25 by tortured soul]

You asked for a knock on the door at 8:30. You did not get a knock on the door at 8:30. Hence, it is not like Gideon's account where he got exactly what he asked from God. You simply attributed a series of strange events to God, as Christians often do. If you look hard enough for signs, you're sure to find them.

[Zzyzx]

.

You asked for a knock on the door at 8:30. You did not get a knock on the door at 8:30. Hence, it is not like Gideon's account where he got exactly what he asked from God. You simply attributed a series of strange events to God, as Christians often do. If you look hard enough for signs, you're sure to find them.

Exactly.

If you wait long enough there is likely to be a knock on the door that has nothing to do with a "sign."

Believers have been waiting for "the end of the world" for 2000 years. If eventually humans do manage to destroy much of life on the planet (though not likely the planet itself), there will still be no indication that any gods were involved.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to Justin108]

If God chooses not to do exactly what I pray for, then it is for a specific reason. So the knock didn't arrive at the time I had asked, oh well, God does not work according to our time unless He chooses to do so through His free will. The pounding came, the door opened, I unlatched it, and there was nobody there. Can this be explained by science and coincidence? Not to me. The opposite argument can be used against the skeptics, and that is skeptics continually look for an explanation against the event which blinds the mind against the possibility that miracles do take place, and God does answer prayer, even if it is not answered exactly the way it is prayed for. Like I said before, I have experienced these sort of events numerous times in my life, and I can write them down and you can read them, but it would not matter. Like I stated at the end of my previous post, personal testimony is just that, personal. I am only answering the question that was posted for the thread, and that is, Why doesn't God do what He did during the time of Gideon. I answered the question with a personal testimony, for that is the only way to answer that question (to me).

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 28 by tortured soul]

[Zzyzx]

.

[Replying to post 28 by tortured soul]

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