Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 408 by Starman]

Atheists work in many such places, but initially there aren't any large international atheist organisations (partly because of the following) and secondly it's at its most broad a lack of belief and otherwise a belief in non-existence of deities, not the kind of thing you found an organisation on.

There are no doubt charities run by football organisations, but I doubt there are many charities run by organisations founded upon an indifference or opposition to football. I doubt there are any organisations founded upon a lack of support for, or opposition to, football. Further, I doubt anyone will establish colleges or hospitals based upon the lack of belief in gods or belief in the absence of such gods.

Naturally, given the overwhelming majority (virtually all?) were Christian in Europe in the middle ages and before, comparisons would be grossly inappropriate. Kind of like asking why modern medicine didn't save people hundreds of years ago.

[Strider324]

[Replying to post 408 by Starman]

Do you even know how many atheists there are? Let's just take the US. Fully 80% of Americans self-identify as Christians. So is it any surprise that the majority of ANYTHING - counts mostly Christians among its members? Atheists have been the most discriminated minority in this country. 28 states allow an employer to fire me for no other reason than my atheism. I can be denied housing for the same reason. I can be denied public office as well. And thanx to the hateful bigotry of those Christians who piously demand their 'right' to discriminate under FRFA laws, I can be denied even more. Having to fight every day for the basic rights you take for granted - where would I have time to open a fucking hospital?

Here's the salient difference between world views. As an atheist, I donate around 20% of my income to medical research, food kitchens, and secular organizations that promote treating all humans with dignity. And no one can EVER look at my charity and wonder if my motivation for doing so is only in response to the bribe of heaven or the threat of hell. No Christian can EVER prove that they weren't thus motivated by the hope of a reward. So please, keep your pharisaic bragging about all the good Christians do to yourself. It's a numbers game. 80% of the good done in this country can be ascribed to Christians. But guess what? 80% of the evil done is also by Christians. In fact, Christians actually represent an even higher % of our prison populations. Why is that?

Have you or any Christians you know given away all of your possessions to follow Jesus? Do you or any Christians you know actively love your enemies? Can you or ANY Christian tell me what Jesus has to say about the homosexuals you marginalize and want to deny benefits to? Can you tell me why your benevolent 'creator' just happens to think treating women as second class citizens and slaughtering babies and looking at dwarves and the near-sighted and those who have suffered injury to their genitals are just as despised as homosexuals? Can you explain your religions perverted fixation with the verse that says homosexuality is detestable, while they absolutely ignore the verse 3 verses earlier that makes the exact same abomination claim for men who have sex with their wives during menstruation? If you can intelligently explain these things, I make consider your other claims

Your evidence for any creator so far is as empty as the claims most Christians make about honoring the teachings of Jesus.

[FarWanderer]

Also most of your list would be best credited to the printing press. If Christianity were really such an awesome and progressive cultural force, you would expect the Renaissance to have happened in like, the 4th or 5th century.

Let me explain. These are a few of the countless such testimonies which constitute a portion of the "evidence" atheists so ardently and disingenuously request, indeed demand. No matter what evidence is offered, the response of atheists is always the same. It is unacceptable, for any of a hundred reasons. Nothing ever can satisfy atheist petulant demands.

You haven't even made an argument for an Intelligent Creator, much less presented evidence for one.

You made some arguments for other things, one of which was that Christianity is to thank for cultural, scientific, and moral progress. You presented some evidence.

I rejected that evidence, providing a reason. Apparently, this is frowned upon by you. I am not allowed to reject your evidence for any reason.

But IF atheists are as moral as they claim, where is the evidence of that? Where are the atheist hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of the 21st century? Where are the atheist colleges, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of today? Atheists such as you dodge these legitimate questions and merely sit back proclaiming your own virtue, and declaiming "xtians".

Did I claim such things existed?
Would their non-existence support an argument for an Intelligent Creator?

Nothing could be more hollow, less persuasive than virtuous boasts without a shred of evidence even being presented.

I agree.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 408 by Starman]



Here is an orphanage that is being advertised as the first atheist orphanage. Not that secular orphanages don't count. This one is just very specifically being run by atheists.

[Starman]

You mean like UNICEF, Doctors without borders, the Red Cross, KiVA, and Barnardos?

Virtually every secular government has hospitals orphanages and means to address poverty. Japan has one of the highest rates of atheism in the world and they have hospitals and universities and orphanages etc.

Ahem. Please provide proof of your claims, that these are atheist.
Do any of their charters make such a claim?
Why do atheists work so very hard to claim their/your own morality while simultaneously stating that "the only claim we make is that we don't believe in any divinity." That is one of many Big Lies by atheists.

Moreover, atheists claim that the United States of America's government is secular, and endlessly parrot "separation of church and state, separation of church and state." Big Huge Lie. "In God We Trust." (All others pay cash.)

[Wyvern]

But IF atheists are as moral as they claim, where is the evidence of that? Where are the atheist hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of the 21st century? Where are the atheist colleges, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of today? Atheists such as you dodge these legitimate questions and merely sit back proclaiming your own virtue, and declaiming "xtians"

Ahem. Please provide proof of your claims, that these are atheist.
Do any of their charters make such a claim?
Why do atheists work so very hard to claim their/your own morality while simultaneously stating that "the only claim we make is that we don't believe in any divinity." That is one of many Big Lies by atheists.

Why would you expect atheists to have the same resources as cohesive groups such as the various christian sects? Additionally why would you expect such a nonunified group as atheists to expend their resources in the exact same manner as a unified group of religious people?

Moreover, atheists claim that the United States of America's government is secular, and endlessly parrot "separation of church and state, separation of church and state." Big Huge Lie. "In God We Trust." (All others pay cash.)

Atheists probably get this idea from the fact that Jefferson, the author of the Constitution also wrote that the church and state should be separate. You really should be happy about this being the case, as can be seen with the condition of religions in Europe it is obvious that when religion becomes part of the state it starts to die. The saying; In God We Trust, only became the official motto of the US in 1957 and was more in response to those godless commies.

[DanieltheDragon]

You mean like UNICEF, Doctors without borders, the Red Cross, KiVA, and Barnardos?

Virtually every secular government has hospitals orphanages and means to address poverty. Japan has one of the highest rates of atheism in the world and they have hospitals and universities and orphanages etc.

Ahem. Please provide proof of your claims, that these are atheist.
Do any of their charters make such a claim?
Why do atheists work so very hard to claim their/your own morality while simultaneously stating that "the only claim we make is that we don't believe in any divinity." That is one of many Big Lies by atheists.

Moreover, atheists claim that the United States of America's government is secular, and endlessly parrot "separation of church and state, separation of church and state." Big Huge Lie. "In God We Trust." (All others pay cash.)

These groups are specifically secular, atheists tend to support secular groups. Only 5% of the US population is atheist and it is also the most hated group in America. Creating an atheist only charity usually fails spectacularly. There is no central atheist authority and atheists tend to be a fairly diverse group with a wide range of backgrounds. Secular charities are where most atheists put their charity towards as they reach the broadest audience. My wife and I are fairly evenly split between secular charities and non secular as she is a Christian and I am not.

Atheism is simply my professed lack of belief in a deity. That says nothing about my morality or politics. Danmark Zzyzx and various other non theists on this site probably have a wide range of morality in which we individually follow. Atheism is not a claim of morality it is a system of belief with respect to gods.


Would you donate to an atheist charity, hospital, or university?

[otseng]

That is one of many Big Lies by atheists.

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[arian]

Uh, Starman the things you quote from your "christian experts" are the lowest basest outright lied propaganda I perhaps ever heard !

I wont even stress the point that in fact Jesus h a s never been born 'cause he never existed . . .

. . . But do you really not know that the 1500 years of christian dictaturship were a horrible dark age that put to death all the sciences, universitys and precious literature of the non christians high civilications that were drawn into the cauldron of christian mass murder, torture, destroyng of freedom?
After the middle ages when christianity slowly began to weaken humanity had a channce to find again the blessings and sciences of a free culture. Free from the plague of an enforced religion.

This is the very reason I have taken Z's challenge to prove there is "Undeniable Scientific evidence of THE Creator", to reveal the difference between the 'Religion-created gods' (not just Christianity was created by religion, but I mean all religions and their gods!) and our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" which we can see by scientifically observing the difference between our brain and our mind. Right now, identifying the mind is one of the greatest goals in science, because it offers eternal life to everyone once their mind is downloaded on disk.

Of course atheist and other non-believers will deny that a mind/soul exist, so they will not comment on Blue-brain Project and the hundreds of other associated projects because it would prove that God exists. They just say the mind is the product of the brain, .. and ignore the part where they are trying to immortalize it apart from the brain.

So again, .. stay away from religion-created gods, creators, or listening to any divinely inspired insights, and just stick with reality, the part of science that observes the world around us, not multiverses coming through black holes and other imagined stuff.

If Jesus didn't exist, prove to me Abraham Lincoln existed, or anyone in history. Just remember since we cannot use the history Book the Bible as fact, you cannot use any history book as fact either. So go ahead and prove Abraham Lincoln existed at all?

[Zzyzx]

.

This is the very reason I have taken Z's challenge to prove there is "Undeniable Scientific evidence of THE Creator",

Feel free to start any time presenting EVIDENCE – not conjecture, opinion, personal testimonials. Speculating about human "mind" being eternal (or whatever) proves nothing at all – nor does attempting to denigrate scientific studies or the religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) of others.

Four hundred posts into the thread and not a shred of evidence – only speculation and incredible opinion.

If Jesus didn't exist,

I'll agree, for the moment, that Jesus existed – perhaps as a wandering rabbi and wannabee messiah (both of which appear to have been common in his era).

Is there evidence that he was supernatural or divine?

prove to me Abraham Lincoln existed, or anyone in history. Just remember since we cannot use the history Book the Bible as fact, you cannot use any history book as fact either. So go ahead and prove Abraham Lincoln existed at all?

US government records exist (and are not history books). Worldwide journalistic accounts exist (and are not history books). A birthplace and a grave exist (and are not history books).

Also, Lincoln is not proposed to have performed any supernatural feats or to have been a "god" so such things need not be proved.


Now, concerning Jesus as a god (or whatever is being claimed), what evidence exists? Stories! Unverifiable stories – period.