Science Denial is Not a Choice

[Danmark]

Watching Diane Sawyers interview with Bruce Jenner tonight on 20/20 I realized something that has been puzzling me. There is a common psychological issue or learning disorder that is associated with religious thinking, at least for some religious people, particularly with Muslims and Christians. Im not sure if it comes from deference to authority or simplistic thinking or both or other factors in combination. But this much Ive observed: there is a common thread running through their thinking that seems to converge on not accepting facts that disrupt simple stereotypes.

We talk about science denial, but it is much more pervasive than just denying the science of evolution and denying the ancient age of the Earth despite the overwhelming evidence. Recently I realized science denial is involved when it comes to the obvious fact that manmade contributions to air pollution contribute to climate change.

What clarified this for me is the transgender issue. A segment of Christians and apparently an even larger segment of Muslims have long been in denial about same sex gender attraction being a something that is not a choice.

More recently we have the issue that has become more openly talked about because of Bruce Jenner. Here is a guy who set a world record in the decathlon, proclaimed the worlds greatest athlete, who has achieved the masculine ideal, yet he has always known he is female inside, not male despite his outward appearance. He is heterosexual, attracted to women not men, but he has always felt he was not a male deep within his psyche. Science supports this issue that gender attraction and gender identification are two separate issues. Because he has felt he has no choice but to be who he is, Jenner has suffered both economic and social consequences. Why would someone choose to be this way if it were not so compelling as to not be a choice at all?

But these facts seem impossible for a large segment of religious folk to accept. It struck me that expecting them to accept the truth, the facts, the evidence regarding homosexuality, transgender issues, evolution and other scientific evidence is impossible for them; that it is just as crazy to expect them to accept this reality as it is for the rest of us to accept that they cannot help but think they way they do. They are not being obstinate or evil or mean spirited. They simply cannot accept or appreciate what seems so obvious to others. Hence they deny the facts science presents and honestly believe there is a conspiracy among scientists to pervert the truth.

I dont pretend to understand why this is so, but I am willing to accept that their science denial is as rigidly fixed as is gender attraction and identity. In other words, perhaps they have no more choice about denying scientific truth than homosexuals and heterosexuals have in denying who they are attracted to.

So, the affirmative of this subtopic is:
The refusal to accept evolution, a billions of years old Earth, climate change, homosexuality, and transgender issues is:
A. Science denial
B. These issues are related
C. Religious belief plays a role in denying the science behind these facts
D. People who deny these facts have little or no choice in their denial (they can't help it).

Finally, more for discussion than debate: "What is it about these religions that in large segments, causes the denial of obvious truths as confirmed by scientific discovery and experiments?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

So what part of the interview was science?

Is social science really a science, given that no fact derived from it is 100% and is nearly always culture specific?

If a person behaves abnormally shouldn't we help them?

What is the latest scientific research on which genes cause transgender?

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

So what part of the interview was science?

None of it.

Is social science really a science, given that no fact derived from it is 100% and is nearly always culture specific?

The scienciest science is not 100%, except maybe for mathematics. Culture specific 'facts' are relevant for the culture, but less so for very different cultures. Transgendered humans appear to be in all modern cultures, and seem to have the same general issues of acceptance as they do here in the west (western civilization that is). I had friends in Seattle that were a heterosexual couple, and the husband, a Native American cross dressed. In whatever tribe he hailed from, (this was the first I'd ever heard of such a thing, sometime back in the early 90's) there had always been a relatively 'accepted' phenomenon of men who felt themselves to be female on the inside, or felt they had both male and female gender identity. Often they were healers or 'spiritual' workers of some sort.

Nowadays just googling 'transgender and Native Americans' gets you this http://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/o ... th-america article. It just seems to be a rare variant of human gender expression, and being hetero- or homosexual seems to be separate. My daughter-in-law is transgendered, was born a little boy named Anthony. She still likes girls so I guess my biological daughter, her wife, is not in a homosexual relationship (a married one as of 2012). People still want to pull me aside and 'discuss' this matter, it seems endlessly fascinating to them for some reason (I know why).

If a person behaves abnormally shouldn't we help them?

Definitely.

"Abnormal behavior" is largely a social construct, and determining what is abnormal is, like you mentioned earlier, a function of culture. There are still unarguably abnormal behaviors transcending all cultural boundaries, but that list is getting smaller.

Many maladies humans have attributed to demonic possession, bad spirits, bad 'aethers', and mental or moral defects are demonstrably none of the above thanks to modern medical science and research. There's no doubt that transgenderism is abnormal, a malady in current times. It is a hideous condition to grow up with unless you have unusually out-of-the-box-thinking parents.

The only problem is our lack of tolerance for human variation. Some insist upon arbitrarily derived limits for tolerance. I admit, my eyeballs about fell out of my dam head when my daughter informed me her girlfriend was TG. It wasn't something we exactly . . . discussed as a family . It was good enough that my daughter-in-law knew that I knew . . . until my sister's third daughter announced he was transgendered, and then all hell broke loose, so the whole family of country bumpkins (Ozarks and Appalachian ancestry) discovered a) my sister's 'new' son and b) the young lady they'd come to love too, married to my daughter was not born that way. My 90 year old grandmother even rocked this out. It was a particularly interesting couple of months, there.

The cure for our lack of tolerance is simple. Get to know a transgendered person personally. It's very difficult to feel bigoted, aggressive or hateful (folks in general) once you are familiar with the humanity, the boring, mundane ole humanity of such an exotic creature as a TG person. Some folks do manage it, however. Their kids frequently kill themselves or disown them if they are fortunate enough to find a supportive community.

I think folks who reject their own child, family member or friend due to controversy over genitals and/or sexual habits are abnormal and in need of help. This is the growing cultural consensus, world wide. They don't need to be hated on or hurt either, that hasn't ever changed a person's point of view anyway. They just need to stay out of it, and they deserve to get to know and come to love a person who's existence violates some arbitrary 'rule' they didn't need to have in the first place.

What is the latest scientific research on which genes cause transgender?

The 'latest' is still pretty vague, in that it's simplistic to say genes CAUSE a certain thing, more like many genes work together in some fashion and then their expression(s) are impacted by the environment.

That said, there is a provisional 'gene link' that causes a shortened androgen receptor gene, as found in an Australian study http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

The fetal brain is 'masculinized' in utero (as the fetus will have a female phenotype without the action of testosterone on its receptors), which is thought to be part of a masculine gender identity. If those androgen receptors are inadequately short, then the brain will remain in it's default feminized state -- or so that is the thought currently. This kind of research is in its infancy.

In another article, there were visible differences in the brains of TG men to women and women to men that resemble the normal gender differences in male and female brains. A TG female will have an XY chromosomal gender, but the brain structure is 'female', and so forth.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 21:

If a person behaves abnormally shouldn't we help them?

That depends on too many factors to offer a blanket answer. Where the behavior is not harmful to the abnormalor, or where no harm is caused to others, I see no reason to insist on a change, unless requested by the abnormalor.

What is the latest scientific research on which genes cause transgender?

My position is that genetics or psychology is kinda beside the point, insofar as one feels they're a different sex than what their biology suggests. In such a case I see no reason to try to "convert" them to accept anything other'n who they think they are. (Not that the referenced statement suggested otherwise)

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

So what part of the interview was science?

None of it.

Is social science really a science, given that no fact derived from it is 100% and is nearly always culture specific?

The scienciest science is not 100%, except maybe for mathematics. Culture specific 'facts' are relevant for the culture, but less so for very different cultures. Transgendered humans appear to be in all modern cultures, and seem to have the same general issues of acceptance as they do here in the west (western civilization that is). I had friends in Seattle that were a heterosexual couple, and the husband, a Native American cross dressed. In whatever tribe he hailed from, (this was the first I'd ever heard of such a thing, sometime back in the early 90's) there had always been a relatively 'accepted' phenomenon of men who felt themselves to be female on the inside, or felt they had both male and female gender identity. Often they were healers or 'spiritual' workers of some sort.

Nowadays just googling 'transgender and Native Americans' gets you this http://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/o ... th-america article. It just seems to be a rare variant of human gender expression, and being hetero- or homosexual seems to be separate. My daughter-in-law is transgendered, was born a little boy named Anthony. She still likes girls so I guess my biological daughter, her wife, is not in a homosexual relationship (a married one as of 2012). People still want to pull me aside and 'discuss' this matter, it seems endlessly fascinating to them for some reason (I know why).

If a person behaves abnormally shouldn't we help them?

Definitely.

"Abnormal behavior" is largely a social construct, and determining what is abnormal is, like you mentioned earlier, a function of culture. There are still unarguably abnormal behaviors transcending all cultural boundaries, but that list is getting smaller.

Many maladies humans have attributed to demonic possession, bad spirits, bad 'aethers', and mental or moral defects are demonstrably none of the above thanks to modern medical science and research. There's no doubt that transgenderism is abnormal, a malady in current times. It is a hideous condition to grow up with unless you have unusually out-of-the-box-thinking parents.

The only problem is our lack of tolerance for human variation. Some insist upon arbitrarily derived limits for tolerance. I admit, my eyeballs about fell out of my dam head when my daughter informed me her girlfriend was TG. It wasn't something we exactly . . . discussed as a family . It was good enough that my daughter-in-law knew that I knew . . . until my sister's third daughter announced he was transgendered, and then all hell broke loose, so the whole family of country bumpkins (Ozarks and Appalachian ancestry) discovered a) my sister's 'new' son and b) the young lady they'd come to love too, married to my daughter was not born that way. My 90 year old grandmother even rocked this out. It was a particularly interesting couple of months, there.

The cure for our lack of tolerance is simple. Get to know a transgendered person personally. It's very difficult to feel bigoted, aggressive or hateful (folks in general) once you are familiar with the humanity, the boring, mundane ole humanity of such an exotic creature as a TG person. Some folks do manage it, however. Their kids frequently kill themselves or disown them if they are fortunate enough to find a supportive community.

I think folks who reject their own child, family member or friend due to controversy over genitals and/or sexual habits are abnormal and in need of help. This is the growing cultural consensus, world wide. They don't need to be hated on or hurt either, that hasn't ever changed a person's point of view anyway. They just need to stay out of it, and they deserve to get to know and come to love a person who's existence violates some arbitrary 'rule' they didn't need to have in the first place.

What is the latest scientific research on which genes cause transgender?

The 'latest' is still pretty vague, in that it's simplistic to say genes CAUSE a certain thing, more like many genes work together in some fashion and then their expression(s) are impacted by the environment.

That said, there is a provisional 'gene link' that causes a shortened androgen receptor gene, as found in an Australian study http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

The fetal brain is 'masculinized' in utero (as the fetus will have a female phenotype without the action of testosterone on its receptors), which is thought to be part of a masculine gender identity. If those androgen receptors are inadequately short, then the brain will remain in it's default feminized state -- or so that is the thought currently. This kind of research is in its infancy.

In another article, there were visible differences in the brains of TG men to women and women to men that resemble the normal gender differences in male and female brains. A TG female will have an XY chromosomal gender, but the brain structure is 'female', and so forth.

I have known several transgender individuals, who went from male to female, and out of the ones I know, they all like women. THe whole 'gender identity' verses the 'gender attraction' shows on just how little I personally understand the brain.

[Danmark]

I have known several transgender individuals, who went from male to female, and out of the ones I know, they all like women. THe whole 'gender identity' verses the 'gender attraction' shows on just how little I personally understand the brain.

Same here. Life was easier when things seemed simple, like learning as a child that there are these tiny things called atoms. And they are made of neutrons, protons, and electrons. Everything neat an' simple with positive, negative and neutral charges.

Then one day the dark, evil specter of knowledge intruded with talk of quarks, mesons and bosons. I still have trouble pronouncing 'hadron' correctly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles
What's the number up to now? 36?

Medieval theology is easier to understand.

Anyway, any guy who has gender reassignment surgery so he can look like who he thinks she is, shouldn't get much of an argument about her sincerity.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 22 by Hamsaka]

Wow awesome reply. So do you think Danmark's position is fair in light of what you said? Is it cognitive bias to see scraps of evidence in favour of a belief and call the other side deniers (a word closely related to holocaust denial)?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 25 by Danmark]

Actually taking extreme positions in order to seff justify is quite common. Think of suicide and self harm and really behind both examples the person is saying, "now do you believe me? See what you did?"

Or think of the temper tantrums a child can act out when not getting their way in comparison to the issue they are crying about.

It doesn't scream sincerity to me.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 25 by Danmark]

Actually taking extreme positions in order to seff justify is quite common. Think of suicide and self harm and really behind both examples the person is saying, "now do you believe me? See what you did?"

Or think of the temper tantrums a child can act out when not getting their way in comparison to the issue they are crying about.

It doesn't scream sincerity to me.

There is one big difference. They have discovered that people who have gone been diagnosed as having gender dsyphoria, and who have optioned for the surgery have a much lower suicide rate than those who have been denied the surgery. That statistic seems to counter your position.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 25 by Danmark]

Actually taking extreme positions in order to seff justify is quite common. Think of suicide and self harm and really behind both examples the person is saying, "now do you believe me? See what you did?"

Or think of the temper tantrums a child can act out when not getting their way in comparison to the issue they are crying about.

It doesn't scream sincerity to me.

I don't see it that way. I see what must be inner turmoil and distress from being different, from not fitting in. In some it may cause over achievement, like with Bruce Jenner. In others, despair, but in both cases distress. We know from basic psychological research that people will experience profound stress when they repeatedly encounter scenarios where everyone disagrees with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_confo ... xperiments

Try to imagine what it would be like if everyone, plus your own body, tells you, you are a boy, when inwardly you feel like a girl. A prank elementary school kinds sometimes play on others is to privately conspire to stare at one fellow student. It is the rare 3rd grader who can withstand such treatment with poise.

According to surveys, 4.6 percent of the overall U.S. population has self-reported a suicide attempt, with that number climbing to between 10 and 20 percent for lesbian, gay or bisexual respondents. By comparison, 41 percent of trans or gender non-conforming people surveyed have attempted suicide.
http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/tra ... r-suicide/
In other words a transgender person is about ten times more likely to kill him/herself.

My understanding of the teachings of Jesus leads me to believe the essence of what he taught was love, not rules; that he would be particularly sensitive to the outcast, the oddball, the unlovely. He was even accepting of abrasive loudmouths, like Peter and despised tax collectors. Today, this seems to be too often transformed into rule conformity taking precedence over love.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 25 by Danmark]

Actually taking extreme positions in order to seff justify is quite common. Think of suicide and self harm and really behind both examples the person is saying, "now do you believe me? See what you did?"

Or think of the temper tantrums a child can act out when not getting their way in comparison to the issue they are crying about.

It doesn't scream sincerity to me.

I don't see it that way. I see what must be inner turmoil and distress from being different, from not fitting in. In some it may cause over achievement, like with Bruce Jenner. In others, despair, but in both cases distress. We know from basic psychological research that people will experience profound stress when they repeatedly encounter scenarios where everyone disagrees with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_confo ... xperiments

Try to imagine what it would be like if everyone, plus your own body, tells you, you are a boy, when inwardly you feel like a girl. A prank elementary school kinds sometimes play on others is to privately conspire to stare at one fellow student. It is the rare 3rd grader who can withstand such treatment with poise.

My understanding of the teachings of Jesus leads me to believe the essence of what he taught was love, not rules; that he would be particularly sensitive to the outcast, the oddball, the unlovely. He was even accepting of abrasive loudmouths, like Peter and despised tax collectors. Today, this seems to be too often transformed into rule conformity taking precedence over love.

I agree with your understanding of Jesus. I think those that followed him found the strength in him for their weaknesses.

What I don't agree with is accepting absurdity as normal when it clearly isn't. It's like the Monty Python sketch the black knight or the emperors new clothes story.

My compassion for Bruce Jenner shouldn't change my beliefs and comes from my beliefs.