Why doesn't the Christian god have a real name?

stonedbesidethemortician · Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:15 pm

It seems a little disrespectful for Christians to refer to their god as "God". That is the equivalent of me naming my dog "Dog". In just about every other religion, the deity has a name. I know that "Yahweh" is frequently used, but the majority seem to just use "God"...why?

Not really a debate topic, just a question I had.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:18 pm

ttruscott wrote: The Names of God in the Old Testament: KJV

https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm

El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

OK. I'm convinced more surely than ever. There are no gods. Just men running around giving them names.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:18 pm

Danmark wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Danmark]

What is truly profound is the 2nd Commandment, the prohibition of depicting God with images. THAT distinguishes the God of the Bible from competing, Pagan "gods".

But in the Fist Commandment, God re-introduces Himself, BY NAME, to the Hebrew people:" I am YHVH, thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery".

And as I too have argued many many times, the God of the Bible identifies HIMSELF by name...in Exodus, and on the lips of the prophet Isaiah..."I am YHVH, that is my name", and many other places.

And usage.If Jehovah's witnesses missed the point, as you say, so did the authors of the Hebrew Bible who used the name YHVH some 6000 times in their sacred scripture. That is one thing the Witnesses got right, imo.

The name is a link to God, not a limitation. In the book of Psalms, the name of God is a focus for praise, thanksgiving and prayer.

If the God of the Bible does not have a name, why have a major commandment prohibiting MISuse of the Name?

And why would Jesus teach a prayer that hallows the Father's Name?
Since YHVH means "I am who I am" or I am that I am'" to me the meaning is clear. This god is beyond naming. This is consistent with the prohibition against making a graven image.

For me, to believe otherwise is to diminish the one thing about this god that is special, and to reduce it to the status of a thousand other gods.

In some ways I hope you are right. It makes my argument that there are no gods more powerful. So I'm making this point out of intellectual duty since I admit it cuts against the non theist position, however slightly. So, theists, have at it, further lower the specialness of your 'god.' Insist he has a name. This just further humanizes him and argues for his anthropogenic nature.

You didn't address my arguments that the Biblical God DOES have a name, you merely restated your position. Regarding the consistent commandments...you uphold the one, and attempt to use it to diminish the other. The commandment regarding the name does not state "I your God does not have a name, so do not ascribe one to me". No, the third commandment is an admonision to not ABUSE the Name....it is assumed that the Name exists, and it is holy.

Yes, the Name has that meaning, "I AM that I AM"..but that does not diminish the fact that it IS a name. Names often have meaning..and "YHVH" has a very profound meaning, in essence, the ground of very being itself.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:00 pm

Elijah John wrote:
You didn't address my arguments that the Biblical God DOES have a name, you merely restated your position. Regarding the consistent commandments...you uphold the one, and attempt to use it to diminish the other. The commandment regarding the name does not state "I your God does not have a name, so do not ascribe one to me". No, the third commandment is an admonision to not ABUSE the Name....it is assumed that the Name exists, and it is holy.

Yes, the Name has that meaning, "I AM that I AM"..but that does not diminish the fact that it IS a name. Names often have meaning..and "YHVH" has a very profound meaning, in essence, the ground of very being itself.

I thought I had addressed it. I can't expand much on my original statement. Yes, I agree it is a legitimate point to argue 'he' has a name and the meaning is "It has no name, it is beyond naming." To me it is an affront to this God to call it* 'Jehovah' when it clearly refused to give a name; commanded that no name should be hung on it. All names have a meaning, but to suggest that it that is beyond naming has a name meaning 'it is beyond naming' strikes me as a joke; a clever attempt to get around the spirit of the command.

To me this is not a trivial issue. The early Hebrews, and I believe some to this day, do not pronounce the 'tetragramation.' And the reason they do not is the very point I'm trying to make.

This may be part of the difference between an anthropomorphic god, a creation of man, a god of theism, and a true God that is beyond shabby human theism.
This orthodox god with a name is too small.**

_____________________
*There is, in English at least, no pronoun that properly serves. "It" may seem demeaning, but 'he' and 'she' are worse because they are misleading. Giving god a gender or otherwise reducing it to a glorified sort of super man is both misleading and diminishing to this God of gods, this being beyond being, the very ground of being as Tillich put it. This is another side of why it is so wrong to give this God a name.

** J. B. Phillips' Your God is Too Small addressed this general issue.
http://books.simonandschuster.com/Your- ... 0743255097

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:54 pm

Danmark wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Danmark]

What is truly profound is the 2nd Commandment, the prohibition of depicting God with images. THAT distinguishes the God of the Bible from competing, Pagan "gods".

But in the Fist Commandment, God re-introduces Himself, BY NAME, to the Hebrew people:" I am YHVH, thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery".

And as I too have argued many many times, the God of the Bible identifies HIMSELF by name...in Exodus, and on the lips of the prophet Isaiah..."I am YHVH, that is my name", and many other places.

And usage.If Jehovah's witnesses missed the point, as you say, so did the authors of the Hebrew Bible who used the name YHVH some 6000 times in their sacred scripture. That is one thing the Witnesses got right, imo.

The name is a link to God, not a limitation. In the book of Psalms, the name of God is a focus for praise, thanksgiving and prayer.

If the God of the Bible does not have a name, why have a major commandment prohibiting MISuse of the Name?

And why would Jesus teach a prayer that hallows the Father's Name?
Since YHVH means "I am who I am" or I am that I am'" to me the meaning is clear. This god is beyond naming. This is consistent with the prohibition against making a graven image.

For me, to believe otherwise is to diminish the one thing about this god that is special, and to reduce it to the status of a thousand other gods.

In some ways I hope you are right. It makes my argument that there are no gods more powerful. So I'm making this point out of intellectual duty since I admit it cuts against the non theist position, however slightly. So, theists, have at it, further lower the specialness of your 'god.' Insist he has a name. This just further humanizes him and argues for his anthropogenic nature.

You are making an incorrect assumption. YHVH and the genesis is actually a pun, where the words "I am what I am" sound similar (but not exact) to how the YHVH would be pronounced. It's not the actual name.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:54 am

Goat wrote:
Danmark wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Danmark]

What is truly profound is the 2nd Commandment, the prohibition of depicting God with images. THAT distinguishes the God of the Bible from competing, Pagan "gods".

But in the Fist Commandment, God re-introduces Himself, BY NAME, to the Hebrew people:" I am YHVH, thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery".

And as I too have argued many many times, the God of the Bible identifies HIMSELF by name...in Exodus, and on the lips of the prophet Isaiah..."I am YHVH, that is my name", and many other places.

And usage.If Jehovah's witnesses missed the point, as you say, so did the authors of the Hebrew Bible who used the name YHVH some 6000 times in their sacred scripture. That is one thing the Witnesses got right, imo.

The name is a link to God, not a limitation. In the book of Psalms, the name of God is a focus for praise, thanksgiving and prayer.

If the God of the Bible does not have a name, why have a major commandment prohibiting MISuse of the Name?

And why would Jesus teach a prayer that hallows the Father's Name?
Since YHVH means "I am who I am" or I am that I am'" to me the meaning is clear. This god is beyond naming. This is consistent with the prohibition against making a graven image.

For me, to believe otherwise is to diminish the one thing about this god that is special, and to reduce it to the status of a thousand other gods.

In some ways I hope you are right. It makes my argument that there are no gods more powerful. So I'm making this point out of intellectual duty since I admit it cuts against the non theist position, however slightly. So, theists, have at it, further lower the specialness of your 'god.' Insist he has a name. This just further humanizes him and argues for his anthropogenic nature.
You are making an incorrect assumption. YHVH and the genesis is actually a pun, where the words "I am what I am" sound similar (but not exact) to how the YHVH would be pronounced. It's not the actual name.

And to answer Danmark as well...the Rabbinic prohibiton was only on PRONOUNCING the Name....not an indication that YHVH was not a name, or was a pun.

Else, why have a Commandment prohibiting misuse of a pun?

And how about usage, you almost certainly know that YHVH is the root of many Hebrew names, and the expression of praise "Hallelujah"...and names like "Elijah" which means "My God is YHVH".

And why would Jesus in the prayer he taught to his disciples, glorify and hallow a "pun".?

And why the first Commandment.."I am YHVH thy God..."

And Isiah's prouncement on behalf of YHVH.."I am YHVH, that is my NAME, and my glory I will not give another..."?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:26 am

Goat wrote:
Danmark wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Danmark]

What is truly profound is the 2nd Commandment, the prohibition of depicting God with images. THAT distinguishes the God of the Bible from competing, Pagan "gods".

But in the Fist Commandment, God re-introduces Himself, BY NAME, to the Hebrew people:" I am YHVH, thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery".

And as I too have argued many many times, the God of the Bible identifies HIMSELF by name...in Exodus, and on the lips of the prophet Isaiah..."I am YHVH, that is my name", and many other places.

And usage.If Jehovah's witnesses missed the point, as you say, so did the authors of the Hebrew Bible who used the name YHVH some 6000 times in their sacred scripture. That is one thing the Witnesses got right, imo.

The name is a link to God, not a limitation. In the book of Psalms, the name of God is a focus for praise, thanksgiving and prayer.

If the God of the Bible does not have a name, why have a major commandment prohibiting MISuse of the Name?

And why would Jesus teach a prayer that hallows the Father's Name?
Since YHVH means "I am who I am" or I am that I am'" to me the meaning is clear. This god is beyond naming. This is consistent with the prohibition against making a graven image.

For me, to believe otherwise is to diminish the one thing about this god that is special, and to reduce it to the status of a thousand other gods.

In some ways I hope you are right. It makes my argument that there are no gods more powerful. So I'm making this point out of intellectual duty since I admit it cuts against the non theist position, however slightly. So, theists, have at it, further lower the specialness of your 'god.' Insist he has a name. This just further humanizes him and argues for his anthropogenic nature.
You are making an incorrect assumption. YHVH and the genesis is actually a pun, where the words "I am what I am" sound similar (but not exact) to how the YHVH would be pronounced. It's not the actual name.

"HaShem"...THE Name...as you know, it is a substitute for pronouncing the Name...along with "Adonai".

There may be that one verse in Exodus 3 that could be read as a pun, but the examples of usage are overwhelming.

Exodus 3.15, in that same passage you refer to to support your pun argument, God goes on to tell Moses, "this is my name forever..." and the Hebrew Bible writers and prophets have USED it for a name ever since.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:30 am

Goat wrote:
You are making an incorrect assumption. YHVH and the genesis is actually a pun, where the words "I am what I am" sound similar (but not exact) to how the YHVH would be pronounced. It's not the actual name.

I understand that Hebrew uses lots of puns, that it is easier to make puns in Hebrew than in English; therefore puns in Hebrew are not necessarily considered clever or funny. But here I don't see what you are talking about. What's the pun? What are the two words/phrases that sound alike but are different and what do they mean?

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:52 am

I note this issue was discussed a few years ago here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... p?p=259334

From looking around the web at resources I also note there is disagreement among scholars on this point. One theme that is always present is "I am who I am" refers to a "self existent being," a being beyond being, the very ground of being.

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:27 am

Danmark wrote: One theme that is always present is "I am who I am" refers to a "self existent being," a being beyond being, the very ground of being.

That's Popeye the Sailor.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:02 pm

JoeyKnothead wrote:
Danmark wrote: One theme that is always present is "I am who I am" refers to a "self existent being," a being beyond being, the very ground of being.
That's Popeye the Sailor.

Same thing.

...
Akshully, Popeye's true name is "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."

Popeye, the greatest theologian in all of Toonland.