I'm back, though a little changed

[cnorman19]

It's been about a year since I left the forum, and I have decided to return -- with a few changed attitudes. The slight change in my screenname is intended to respect those changes (I suppose I could have called myself "cnorman18.2").

First is a personal commitment to this advice: "One is not required to attend every argument to which one is invited."

There are a LOT of common debates here for which I simply have no time or energy, starting with the "prove God exists" wild-goose chase. As I've said very often, that's an intellectual board game without even a possible resolution -- and questions that CANNOT be answered have no practical importance. Don't bother me with it. I am not sure that I "believe in God" in any conventional sense myself -- and more important, I don't think that it matters. The idea that "religion" is synonymous with "belief in God" is an intellectual error of high degree in the first place.

The same goes for the whole "evolution vs. Creation" rabbit hole. I don't bother to engage in struggling with questions that have long since been answered, either.

My primary interest, as it has been from the beginning back in 2007 or so, is to educate others about the modern Jewish religion. This is not (as those who know me will recall) in any kind of effort to proselytize; Jews don't do that, and haven't since approximately the fall of Rome. It's more to promote understanding. We Jews don't talk much about Judaism except "in-house," and though that's historically understandable, it leaves the door open to a LOT of mythology, stereotyping, and plain old misunderstandings and misconceptions. There are those here who have demonstrated that they prefer their misconceptions, and that is their right -- but those who dismiss my own opinions (which are based on 20+ years of learning from various rabbis of different branches) will find that it will be equally easy for me to dismiss theirs. I admit a certain wariness of anything I find antisemitic, and a fierce resolve to expose and correct such ideas, and I do not apologize for either. (I add that I will NOT be discussing the subject of modern Israel, the policies and practices of which are not determined by the modern Jewish religion. I support the State of Israel and its right to exist and defend itself -- but not necessarily its current Government; and that is all I have to say on THAT subject.)

I look forward to the kind of discussions and debates that I once enjoyed here; substantive, respectful and honest, with an interest on both sides in actually learning something one didn't know and perhaps gaining a new insight into things one DID know -- as opposed to scoring ego points, humiliating opponents, and doing victory dances.

Does it sound like I'm coming in with a poor attitude? Maybe I am, but it's informed by seven years or so of bitter experience. I don't expect to display any unpleasantness; if someone posts something that I don't think is worth my effort to respond, I shall post a period ( . ) and nothing more, to indicate that I read it and have nothing to say. That's not so unpleasant.

Hello to all my friends. I HOPE it will be good to be back; I am determined to make this a pleasant experience again -- but I have learned that it doesn't hurt to leave if it isn't.

Be well, all. See you around the forums.

Charles

[Divine Insight]

Hi Charles, and welcome back.

You post is very informative, but hasn't really told me anything new. As far as I can see what you have just described is exactly how I remember you from before. Specifically your following statement:

My primary interest, as it has been from the beginning back in 2007 or so, is to educate others about the modern Jewish religion.

I think you had made this pretty clear the first time around.

My question for you hasn't changed one iota.

What are you doing on a "Debate forum" if your intention is to simply educate others on what you believe modern Judaism should be? Unless, of course, you wanted to debate that specific point?

I personally have no interest in debating with anyone concerning that they believe any "modern day religions" have become or should be. And I hope it doesn't sound too dismissive to also say that I'm not really interested in how modern day people view their modern day religions. I've heard "arguments" (or explanations) for modern day Judaism from other Jews already. As far as I'm concerned it's simply not compatible with what is actually written in the ancient scriptures.

The ancient scriptures clearly claim that some "God" is handing down specific laws, directives, and commandments, etc. To be honest I can't understand Jews who deny this apparent fact. I think the scriptures are pretty clear in proclaiming that the LORD thy GOD expects people do to this, that, and the other thing, etc.

How the Jews can pretend that the ancient scriptures don't make these claims is beyond me. Moreover, even if they actually believed that these claims were not the directives, commandments, and actions etc., given to man by some God, then why should anyone else (i.e. non Jews) even give a hoot what the Jews believe?

Who cares what they believe if they don't claim that any of it came from any God?

I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that The Ten Commandments were supposedly handed to Moses by God himself. "Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me for I am a jealous God." If that didn't actually come from a God then why should anyone care about it? In fact, if it came from a moral man then all he was doing was pretending to speak for a God when there is none.

I just don't see where your position on things is useful to anyone, other than someone who might want to know what some modern day Jews might believe or think.

Moreover, if you merely want to "educate people" and set them straight on what "Jews believe", then you clearly aren't here to even "debate it".

If all you do is post in "General Chat" making it clear that you are only here to help people understand "Modern Day Judaism". Then you'll probably be fine. But if you plan on jumping into actual "Debate threads" then what "Modern day Jews" might believe really has no relevance to most topics.

If the Bible tells me that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments that all men must obey, then why should I care what a "modern day Jew", who says he may not even believe in a God at all, might think?

I mean seriously Charles. I'm not trying to offend you or put you down in any way. I just don't understand why you are on a debate forum if all you want to do is educate people on how you believe "modern day Jews" should think?

That's not even relevant to most of the debates I engage in concerning what the Bible actually has to say.

Also it's my understanding (and you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong on this point), that Jews argue with each other on their own religious beliefs. If there is any truth to this at all, then how can you claim to be the "spokesperson" for all modern day Jews and what they believe? Surely there are Jews who won't even necessarily agree with your views on what modern day Judaism should be?

~~~~

Finally I'm pretty certain that I have never suggested that you are wrong about what "Modern Day Jews" might think or believe. In fact, I'm quite sure I never have, because ultimately I couldn't care less what "Modern Day Jews" think.

I debate almost exclusively on what the ancient scriptures actually say. I see no point in debating with people who are in denial of what the scriptures actually say.

"Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me for I am a jealous God."

If that commandment didn't come from an actual personified jealous God, then as far as I'm concerned the whole rest of the Bible is a moot point.

[cnorman19]

Well, I see I'll be jumping in at pretty much the same place where I left, and with the same member.

Hi Charles, and welcome back.

You post is very informative, but hasn't really told me anything new. As far as I can see what you have just described is exactly how I remember you from before. Specifically your following statement:

My primary interest, as it has been from the beginning back in 2007 or so, is to educate others about the modern Jewish religion.

I think you had made this pretty clear the first time around.

My question for you hasn't changed one iota.

What are you doing on a "Debate forum" if your intention is to simply educate others on what you believe modern Judaism should be? Unless, of course, you wanted to debate that specific point?

I said that was my PRIMARY interest, DI. Not my ONLY interest.

I personally have no interest in debating with anyone concerning that they believe any "modern day religions" have become or should be. And I hope it doesn't sound too dismissive to also say that I'm not really interested in how modern day people view their modern day religions.

Then I think I might ask in return; What are YOU doing here, if you have no interest in debating the things that other people are interested in? If you're not interested in these matters, then you probably have no reason to interact with me. Please remember that. Saying "I have no interest in that" is hardly a point of debate. Just don't engage.

I've heard "arguments" (or explanations) for modern day Judaism from other Jews already. As far as I'm concerned it's simply not compatible with what is actually written in the ancient scriptures.

The ancient scriptures clearly claim that some "God" is handing down specific laws, directives, and commandments, etc. To be honest I can't understand Jews who deny this apparent fact. I think the scriptures are pretty clear in proclaiming that the LORD thy GOD expects people do to this, that, and the other thing, etc.

How the Jews can pretend that the ancient scriptures don't make these claims is beyond me. Moreover, even if they actually believed that these claims were not the directives, commandments, and actions etc., given to man by some God, then why should anyone else (i.e. non Jews) even give a hoot what the Jews believe?

Who cares what they believe if they don't claim that any of it came from any God?

I don't know of any Jews who "deny" that the Scriptures contain words purportedly from God, or who deny this apparent fact. The question, of course, is whether or not one must accept that as being literally true; or perhaps, even if one DOES believe that to be literally true (as many Jews, even modern Jews, do), whether anything has changed since then, and whether we are still compelled to read and understand those words in the same way that people MAY have understood them three thousand years ago. That seems to me to be quite a different proposition from merely saying the Bible appears to contain Divine commands, which no one disputes.

The Bible doesn't "claim" anything; it's a BOOK, not a person. It has no will, no volition, no "attitude," no motivation. It's words on paper. It isnt going to reach up and slap anyone if their interpretation is wrong " and it MUST be interpreted. The Book cannot interpret itself. Thats another issue you are still insisting on ignoring, as well, it seems.

But lets go on:

I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that The Ten Commandments were supposedly handed to Moses by God himself. "Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me for I am a jealous God." If that didn't actually come from a God then why should anyone care about it? In fact, if it came from a moral man then all he was doing was pretending to speak for a God when there is none.

I just don't see where your position on things is useful to anyone, other than someone who might want to know what some modern day Jews might believe or think.

I dont think you know, or ever have known, what my position IS, DI. Youve consistently misstated it since we began these conversations over a year ago. Perhaps we can remedy that eventually, but its not going to happen if you keep restating and restating what you think it to be without bothering to listen, and keep on and keep on declaring that its useless and meaningless, as youre still doing right now.

Moreover, if you merely want to "educate people" and set them straight on what "Jews believe", then you clearly aren't here to even "debate it.

And thats why there are DISCUSSION forums here as well as DEBATE forums, no?

If all you do is post in "General Chat" making it clear that you are only here to help people understand "Modern Day Judaism". Then you'll probably be fine. But if you plan on jumping into actual "Debate threads" then what "Modern day Jews" might believe really has no relevance to most topics.

In your own opinion, of course. If the debate is over what the beliefs of modern Jews are, which HAS happened, then its very relevant indeed. Again, if youre not interested, my advice to you is " just dont engage. Why would you? Talk about something else isnt a legitimate debating point.

If the Bible tells me that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments that all men must obey, then why should I care what a "modern day Jew", who says he may not even believe in a God at all, might think?

Perhaps you might open your mind enough to consider where that passage came from, how it came to be written down, what it means in the context of other similar and different (some VERY different) passages, and what people have made of it since. GOD isnt standing over your shoulder telling you this, you know; its in an old BOOK. You might even start with the FACT that youve misread that passage from the get-go; it was never addressed to all men, as you say, but to Jews only. The Ten Words, as we call them, were among the terms of a COVENANT " a CONTRACT, if you like " between God and the Hebrew, later Jewish, people. There is no obligation on the part of non-Jews to keep the Sabbath, for instance, nor to worship God as the only God.

You see, you dont understand these things nearly as well as you think you do; and if were going to have any discussions at all here, DI, youre going to have to start by LISTENING and LEARNING, and stop the " I dont mean to offend you, either, but I have to call it what it is " pontificating and making absolute pronouncements about things you clearly have never even considered with any depth.

I mean seriously Charles. I'm not trying to offend you or put you down in any way. I just don't understand why you are on a debate forum if all you want to do is educate people on how you believe "modern day Jews" should think?

Because thats my PRIMARY concern, not my only one; and I think its a perfectly legitimate goal. Where is it in the rules that we can only ARGUE and DEBATE here? Hmmm? I mean, seriously, DI. Do you really think this is all about finding out whos RIGHT? I come here to LEARN things, which I do (usually in the debates that I lose), and to help others learn as well. What, tell me please, is wrong with that?

That's not even relevant to most of the debates I engage in concerning what the Bible actually has to say.

And what the Bible has to say, in its literal words, isnt particularly relevant to the things I believe and have to say " nor to the beliefs of modern Judaism. The Bible isnt IRRELEVANT to the modern faith, as you like to pretend Im saying; its still the center and foundation, the earliest literature of the Jewish people. But it is not now, and has never been, the supreme authority on Jewish belief or practice, nor does it have the final say about ANYTHING in the Jewish religion, or in reality itself, for that matter. I feel sure youd agree with that last point, at least; and if you can understand that approach, maybe you can finally, finally come to understand what I was trying to tell you so long, long ago.

Frankly, Im not optimistic. Ive really come to question whether youre capable of actually backing off long enough to listen, long enough to consider something before you reflexively shoot it down because I, and Jews in general, dont approach the Bible like you think we should.

Also it's my understanding (and you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong on this point), that Jews argue with each other on their own religious beliefs. If there is any truth to this at all, then how can you claim to be the "spokesperson" for all modern day Jews and what they believe? Surely there are Jews who won't even necessarily agree with your views on what modern day Judaism should be?

When I claim to speak for all Jews, I am doing just that, because I would only say that about things that all Jews " or at least virtually all Jews, excluding our own nutcase and extremists " agree on. That Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, for instance, or that there is only one God. On other matters, I generally make a point of saying that I speak for MODERN Jews, i.e. Jews of the Reform and Conservative movements (which are both actually liberal movements, in spite of the name of the latter).

The depressing thing is that Ive made all this clear before, and more than once, and to you.

~~~~

Finally I'm pretty certain that I have never suggested that you are wrong about what "Modern Day Jews" might think or believe. In fact, I'm quite sure I never have, because ultimately I couldn't care less what "Modern Day Jews" think.

I have to disagree there, and vehemently. You certainly have told me, straight up, that I am wrong about modern Jewish beliefs, and even ancient Jewish beliefs. Ill look up the quotes if you like, but you have, many more times than once, said to me that you just dont buy it and lectured me on how Jews of the first century and later should have stood up and denounced the misrepresentation of the Hebrew Bible by Christians, and that you therefore accept the Christian view of what the Bible says and means as the real, authentic beliefs of Jews. It was at that point, after a few repetitions of that (excuse me) lunacy, that I left this forum. Maybe you dont care what Jews think, but you certainly cared enough to tell me that I was either mistaken about it or lying.

I debate almost exclusively on what the ancient scriptures actually say. I see no point in debating with people who are in denial of what the scriptures actually say.

And I have yet to find anyone who is in denial of what the scriptures actually say. When subject is the Bible, I debate almost exclusively on what the scriptures MEAN, how they were read and understood in their own day, and how they ought to be read and understood in the PRESENT day. Once again, I have to wonder; I understand how Christian fundamentalists would insist that we all be chained to ONE, and ONLY ONE, and a TOTALLY LITERAL interpretation of the Bible; but why would one who is NOT a Christian fundamentalist insist on that kind of blinkered, nearsighted and anachronistic approach?

"Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me for I am a jealous God."

If that commandment didn't come from an actual personified jealous God, then as far as I'm concerned the whole rest of the Bible is a moot point.

Who ever said that it didnt come from God? As more than one FUNDAMENTALIST Bible scholar has observed, God didnt write the Bible. Even if God DID speak to Moses, what we have are the words of Moses, and not the words of God " and Moses was a man. Further: It is a dictum of the Talmud that a well-ordered and logical argument has the same imperative authority as a Divine command. Since God gave us the ability to reason, even when a human speaks for himself, he can (and often does -- consider Dr. Martin Luther King) speak for God. REVELATION has to begin in the human mind, whether God is there or not; and how, exactly, would one know, anyway?

See, you keep oversimplifying and even lampooning the things I'm trying to say. You're not listening to learn; you're listening to mock and disprove and little more. Can you just STOP that for a bit, and actually LISTEN? Can you?

The ball is now in your court, DI. Do you have any interest at all in actually DISCUSSING this? Or does your interest remain only in DISMISSING any other approach to the Bible than strict text-worshipping literalism, and in DISMISSING any iteration of religious belief not chained to that lockstep approach?

If the latter, we truly have nothing to say to each other, and Id advise and encourage you to avoid engaging with me. Well only be beating the same dead horse, and I doubt that even you will see much point in that. If we cant agree, Im OK with that; but Im not going to beg you to listen. If you can dismiss my ideas " as I said " I can dismiss yours, too.

Up to you, man. Listen, or just leave me alone. Your choice.

[Divine Insight]

Ok, in that case then we truly are done. Because I do listen to the things you say and I find them to simply be irrational and nonsensical.

The following is a perfect example:

The Bible doesn't "claim" anything; it's a BOOK, not a person. It has no will, no volition, no "attitude," no motivation. It's words on paper. It isnt going to reach up and slap anyone if their interpretation is wrong " and it MUST be interpreted. The Book cannot interpret itself. Thats another issue you are still insisting on ignoring, as well, it seems.

You're right the Bible doesn't "claim" anything. But the AUTHORS who wrote the Bible do make very many claims.

I simply disagree with your views. It's not "Just words on paper". Words don't write themselves down. It's far more than just words on paper. It represents the THOUGHTS of actual people who did indeed have will, volition, "attitude" and motivation.

If you (or all Jews) are attempting to interpret words without taking into consideration their possible source, then I "understand" modern Jews now.

They have simply lost sight of reality and are looking at the words of these ancient texts as having come into existence without any will, volition, attitude, or motivation behind them.

I already see no value in that way of thinking.

So it's not that I'm not LISTENING to what you say. It's just that I'm not hearing anything meaningful.

That's just the way it is.

You also claim to not even be sure if there is a God. Yet you speak of the covenant that all Jewish people supposedly have with this Biblical God.

So what are you telling me there? That all modern day Jews are really just agnostics who cling to these ancient scriptures for some strange reason (perhaps for the sake of Pascal's Wager), when in fact, they are actually either agnostic or atheist?

Sounds to me like this is what you are saying.

So my question is this. Why should I care what a bunch of doubting agnostics think?

Clearly the ancient scriptures claim to speak for a God (even you do not deny this). Yet you seem to be saying that Jews for the most part don't really believe it anyway. They are just agnostics clinging to religious traditions for the sake of Pascal's Wager?

Is there anything else I should know about modern day Jews?

Or does this pretty well sum it up?

[cnorman19]

Ok, in that case then we truly are done. Because I do listen to the things you say and I find them to simply be irrational and nonsensical.

The following is a perfect example:

The Bible doesn't "claim" anything; it's a BOOK, not a person. It has no will, no volition, no "attitude," no motivation. It's words on paper. It isnt going to reach up and slap anyone if their interpretation is wrong " and it MUST be interpreted. The Book cannot interpret itself. Thats another issue you are still insisting on ignoring, as well, it seems.

You're right the Bible doesn't "claim" anything. But the AUTHORS who wrote the Bible do make very many claims.

I simply disagree with your views. It's not "Just words on paper". Words don't write themselves down. It's far more than just words on paper. It represents the THOUGHTS of actual people who did indeed have will, volition, "attitude" and motivation.

If you (or all Jews) are attempting to interpret words without taking into consideration their possible source, then I "understand" modern Jews now.

They have simply lost sight of reality and are looking at the words of these ancient texts as having come into existence without any will, volition, attitude, or motivation behind them.

I already see no value in that way of thinking.

So it's not that I'm not LISTENING to what you say. It's just that I'm not hearing anything meaningful.

That's just the way it is.

You also claim to not even be sure if there is a God. Yet you speak of the covenant that all Jewish people supposedly have with this Biblical God.

So what are you telling me there? That all modern day Jews are really just agnostics who cling to these ancient scriptures for some strange reason (perhaps for the sake of Pascal's Wager), when in fact, they are actually either agnostic or atheist?

Sounds to me like this is what you are saying.

So my question is this. Why should I care what a bunch of doubting agnostics think?

Clearly the ancient scriptures claim to speak for a God (even you do not deny this). Yet you seem to be saying that Jews for the most part don't really believe it anyway. They are just agnostics clinging to religious traditions for the sake of Pascal's Wager?

Is there anything else I should know about modern day Jews?

Or does this pretty well sum it up?

No, not at all.

Well, it does in one way; it's an excellent example of your NOT LISTENING. Time and time again, you're telling me that I'm saying things that I'm patently NOT saying. Maybe these are things you WISH I were saying, but if you're thinking you're getting even a fraction of what I'm trying to tell you -- and I can't imagine how you could possibly think that -- sorry, dude, but you're not even close.

It's also rather remarkable to note how much of my post you did NOT respond to, not in any way -- your basic misunderstanding of the nature of the Ten Commandments, your having told me straight out in the past that I'm flatly wrong about Jewish beliefs, my clarifying what I mean when I say I speak for Jews, and so MUCH more. Apparently you focused instantly on your MISunderstandings (or distortions) of these few things that you could seize upon and lampoon or ridicule, and that was your only interest. Revealing, that.

Example: "[Jews] have simply lost sight of reality and are looking at the words of these ancient texts as having come into existence without any will, volition, attitude, or motivation behind them."

What I'm saying is precisely that Jews, myself included, are trying to look at those words and UNDERSTAND the will, volition, attitudes and motivation behind them, that is, those of the PEOPLE who WROTE them. But you'd prefer to pretend I'm saying that they just appeared out of thin air. which is sheer lunacy! Do you really think I'm a lunatic or a moron? Do you not know me at least THAT well?

It's all your fantasy, man. Just your fantasy. I could give a half-dozen more examples from this one post, starting with "[Jews] are just agnostics clinging to religious traditions for the sake of Pascal's wager," which again comes from your own fantasies and has NOTHING to do with anything I've said, and directly contradicts much of it; but I don't see the point of trying any more. You are very clearly DETERMINED not to understand me. You are very clearly determined to maintain that YOU ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW on this, and that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT YOU COULD LEARN ANYTHING NEW FROM ANYONE. You are convinced that you can READ MY MIND, and you apparently think I'm either a blithering idiot who doesn't understand ANY of this as well as YOU do, or you think I'm just lying for fun, or perhaps some bizarre other formulation that I haven't thought of. I have NO idea what motivation you attribute to ME here, but I do know this for certain: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANY OF THIS AT ALL.

Forgive me for "shouting," but you don't seem to be hearing me in regular type. Not an iota of it, not even a bare beginning of understanding. To echo your own words; I'm just not hearing anything meaningful from you.

No hard feelings, but we really have nothing at all to talk about. You're not getting this, and WHY you're not getting it really isn't my problem. I don't know if you're just incapable of understanding these things, or if you're really convinced that you know all this nonsense for sure, or if you're just trolling me and pulling my chain; but we're making no progress at all, and as far as I'm concerned, as you say, we truly are done.

Like I said in my first post: "There are those here who have demonstrated that they prefer their misconceptions, and that is their right -- but those who dismiss my own opinions (which are based on 20+ years of learning from various rabbis of different branches) will find that it will be equally easy for me to dismiss theirs."

Who did you think I was talking about? I was truly hoping it would get better between you and me. It obviously hasn't. Too bad. Be well, and don't engage with me again.

[OnceConvinced]

Great to see you back Charles! I always found your input highly valuable as it gave us a good grounding on what the Jews believe and what the Hebrew texts were meant to portray. (No offence to Goat of course, he's a valued member too).

[cnorman19]

Great to see you back Charles! I always found your input highly valuable as it gave us a good grounding on what the Jews believe and what the Hebrew texts were meant to portray. (No offence to Goat of course, he's a valued member too).

Of course not; Goat and I are friends off the forum, and have remained in touch throughout my absence. Thanks for the kind words! I could use a few after this rather frustrating exchange -- apparently DI doesn't agree with your assessment.

I'd say it's good to be back, but that, as you see, remains to be seen.

[Haven]

Great to see you back! You always have the best insights to offer .

[Divine Insight]

Great to see you back Charles! I always found your input highly valuable as it gave us a good grounding on what the Jews believe and what the Hebrew texts were meant to portray. (No offence to Goat of course, he's a valued member too).

Of course not; Goat and I are friends off the forum, and have remained in touch throughout my absence. Thanks for the kind words! I could use a few after this rather frustrating exchange -- apparently DI doesn't agree with your assessment.

I'd say it's good to be back, but that, as you see, remains to be seen.

Just for clarity Charles. I don't have anything against you personally. It's the topic that we "discuss" that I have serious problems with.

It seems to me rather silly for the Jews to suggest that they don't really believe in the God of the Bible (or the Torah) or whatever Holy Books they use. It just seems to me that they are basically in "denial" of their very own religious heritage.

Moreover, I hear very similar types of arguments from "Modern Day Christians". They argue that they don't worship "The Bible" and try to distance themselves from having to support anything that is says (especially verbatim). They claim that Christianity is a "relationship with God", and they refuse to confess that it's actually a religion that has been built in a belief in very specific dogma for centuries. Of course, they always proclaim that Jesus is the "savoir" and the only truth, etc. All whilst denying that they get any of this from actual scriptures.

I can't help but believe that Jews are basically trying to pull the same stunt with their religion.

What you say about "Modern Day Judaism" may very well be true. I have no clue because I've never really studied what modern day Jews actually believe.

All I know for absolutely certain, is that the actual ancient texts don't seem to be describing "Modern Day Jewish Beliefs". On the contrary, the ancient texts (i.e. the Old Testament) clearly claims that some God is making very specific laws, directives, and commandments.

Even you have agreed in this very thread that the Bible does indeed make these "claims". But then ironically you move on to extremely esoteric abstractions by proclaiming that the "Bible makes no claims at all, it's just words in print".

And believe me, that seems to me to be an extremely absurd position to take.

No personal offense intended, as I have no doubt that many modern day Jews do indeed accept these kind of esoteric abstractions, but I just don't see the point to any of it. It appears to me to be nothing more than extreme "denial" disguised as abstract ambiguity.

I'll tell you what I personally believe about these Abrahamic religion.

I do ask that very sincerely that you actually listen to the following because it is the core of my position on the topic of "Modern Day Abrahamic Religions".

The cultures that have believed in these religions have generations of "investment" into their religion belief systems. It would be extremely difficult to simply abandon them as outdated folklore. So they and up making all manner of abstract excuses for why their religions continue to make sense even though they themselves confess that much of what's in the actual doctrines is absolutely absurd, and even highly immoral if taken literally.

Thus they only way to "save face" and keep the religions afloat is to pretend that they can abstract it to a point where it is so utterly vague that it doesn't mean anything and excuse this in the name of "Interpretations".

My position is that that kind of excuse can only be bent so far before it breaks. And for the Christians and Jews I think it's already bent far beyond the breaking point to where it has become absolute nonsense.

The Muslims at the last to take this direction. They still swear up and down that the Qur'an is perfect and infallible and is indeed the verbatim word of Allah, but they will be the last hold-outs on that stance, because as both the Christians and Jew know full well, that position is never going to fly.

So the only way to keep the religion afloat is to turn to extremely vague and meaningless non-verbatim abstraction so they can reject the Bible verbatim whilst pretending that it still has some sort of religious value through "Personal Interpretations" which are never anything near what the Bible actually has to say.

Like I say, Charles, this has nothing at all to do with you or me. These problems are problems that are innate to the Abrahamic doctrines. There is no rational "defense" for trying to keep these ancient folklore alive today.

As humans (for the sake of humanity) we really need to move forward and reassess our world view. Continually trying to keep ancient folklore alive forever is simply not doable. All it does in the long run is hold us BACK.

[cnorman19]

[Replying to post 9 by Divine Insight]

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