Babysitting question

[atheist buddy]

Imagine you HAD TO leave your child with a babysitter. You HAD TO.

You only had two options.

Either you leave your child with Person A or with Person B

Person A is a member of the American Skeptic's Society and only carries out actions that he believes are rational and just on the basis of rational thought. That's all you know about the person.

Person B is a fundamentalist Christian who follows the edicts of the Bible to the letter and believes that God's law trumps man's law. That's all you know about the person.


Question for debate: Who do you leave your child with?


My answer: With the skeptic. This way there at least is a chance that he will not kill my child for misbehaving.

[atheist buddy]

Can somebody please explain to me how the New Covenant invalidates the Ten Commandments and all other Law?

Why would you claim that the Law has become invalid, when Jesus clearly said that it's easier for the heavens and earth to pass away than for the smallest tittle or detail of the Law to become invalid?

It doesn't invalidate it, it fulfills it (Matthew 5:17-18).

The New Covenant, as clearly spelled out in Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31, is simply an upgrade in the system whereby God's law, instead of being written on paper, is written in people's hearts directly.

This is reinforced by Paul in the NT.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus or anybody else say that "Thou shalt not murder" or "kill gay people" or "don't beat your slaves too heavily" is no longer valid.

The New Covenant is simply an upgrade in the recording of the law. Instead of being transcribed on paper and then uploaded into your heart by reading it, it's uploaded by God directly into your heart.

What does it mean to "fulfill" the law? The law is composed of various rules that have two parts: 1) a course of action to take/not take and 2) a punishment for not following part 1.

Let's take your example of Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Part 1 = If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman
Part 2 = both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

To fulfill this part of the law before Jesus' sacrifice, both persons involved in the prohibited act must be put to death. Now that Jesus gave his life to take punishment for our sins (1 Peter 2:24), we can choose to assign our punishment to Jesus. The rule (part 1) still stands, but part 2 can be accomplished by Jesus instead of our own death.

That is awesome!

So all punishments for illegal actions are abolished!

If I steal all your money, I don't have to go to jail. Jesus will go to jail for me!

If I commit mass murder I will not be sentenced to death, Jesus will sit on the electric chair for me.

This is ABSOLUTELY GREAT.

We should not commit crimes, but if we do, we will not be punished. Jesus will get punished on our behalf.


Not only is this utterly nonsensical, but it's remarkable that you would find such a system positive. What a horrible thought it is, that we could abnegate our sense of responsibility so completely and that another person should pay for our crimes. It's perverted and it negates the core foundational values that make a human being worthy of any respect: The acceptance of the consequence of his/her actions.


Let me also address this from a different angle: You're saying that being gay is an offense deserving of death. The default position is that gay people should be killed, but Jesus said "Gay people deserve to die for being gay, but go ahead and kill me instead of them". Right? That's your position.

Now, what if Jesus comes back tomorrow and says "my sacrifice covered your sins for the last 2000 years but I'm changing things around again. From now on and for the next 2000 years, we're back to people being punished for their sins". (and don't you dare say that he couldn't, because God works in mysterious ways).

What then? Would it then become morally correct to kill gay people?


Why can't you just state the obvious? Why can't you have the courage of admitting that which you know is true, and instead twist yourself like a pretzel in an effort to justify the unjustifiable?

Killing gay people is wrong. It has always been wrong. It will always be wrong.

The people who wrote that passage were fundamentally misguided moral midgets. Theirs aren't the words of a perfect moral super-being. They are the words of ignorant bigoted barbarians.

For Santa's sake. These people advocate killing unruly children, owning slaves, kjilling "witches", killing people who work on the sabbath, killing gay guys, forcing women to marry their rapists, committing genocide and raping the virgins after having butchered their entire family, forcing women to be silent in church, preventing women from having positions of authority.

I mean, how despicable must a book be, before you start considering that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't written by somebody better than you?

[Peds nurse]

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[Replying to post 77 by Peds nurse]

It doesn't invalidate the Ten Commandments, but it does invalidate other laws.

Where, exactly, is the official list of laws that have been invalidated (that Christians are not required to obey) and the list of laws that DO apply?

If there is no official, authorized list HOW do Christians know which laws to obey and which they can ignore? Do Christians just follow whatever laws they choose and ignore the rest?

The Ten Commandments are NOT listed in the NT, are they? If not, doesn't that indicate they are Jewish, not Christian?

First, let us look at who the Old Testament laws were for. They were written for God's people, the Israelites, to set them apart from all others. As God's chosen people, these laws were set so that it would go well for them in the land that God had given them. Through the obedience of these laws, the people's hearts were faithful to the one who redeemed them from their bondage in Egypt.

We are not Israelites. Christ died on the cross to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike. The death and resurrection of Christ, put us all on the same playing field. We are saved not by the law, but apart from it. Romans 4: Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

The 10 commandments are good to follow, and are not obsolete as they are referenced in the new Testament.

It also says that He has come to fulfill the law, of which His death has done.

Jesus tells us to not set aside the Commandments, of which were 10.

Zzyzx"]Isn't Jesus quoted as saying there were only TWO commandments? How do ten get in there?

Love God and love others, really sums up every other law including the 10 commandments.

In Hebrews 8, Jesus is superior to the Old Covenant. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete.

A covenant means an agreement between two or more parties stipulating that they are bound by its terms. (Actual definition: an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified).

Code: Select all

Who, exactly, are the parties / people who have agreed to do or not do something? 

Jesus died on the cross for our sins, We believe He did this, and we are saved through His blood, and are adopted into His family and are heirs, receiving full benefits to His grace.

Since no one has authority to make an agreement for another person (unless specifically authorized " as with a Power of Attorney or similar vehicle) " WHO signed (agreed) for any of us?

Jesus, sealed the deal with His blood. He signed on our behalf. Our part is to accept that signature or not.

A mandate (or command) is VERY different from a covenant. It is defined as: an official or authoritative command; an order or injunction. A dictator who says "Worship me and you get to live but fail to worship and you will be punished very severely" is issuing a mandate / command " NOT a covenant.

The difference is that in covenants the parties agree willingly and in mandates / commands they are ordered to do or not do certain things whether they agree to be bound by the edict or not.

Who agreed on the part of anyone living now?

I have to sign in place of my children, because as their parent, I am the responsible party. Jesus, signed in behalf of the children He loves...you and me and everyone else.

Further, PN, if the old laws were defective and in need of change, what does that say about the supposed originator of those laws? Not very wise, right? Would it not be more sensible to consider all the "laws of God" to be laws made up by humans and attributed to God?

Not at all, my sweet friend! At the time, the laws were written for God's people..His people, to set them apart from everyone else. They were His chosen, and served the purpose to prepare the way for what was to come.

Other religions have laws that they attribute to their gods. Does that mean they came from gods and were not made up by humans? Or does it mean that different gods give humans different laws?

[/quote]

Since I believe that God is the one and only, I cannot consider other Gods. Perhaps they are variations of God's law?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 82:

I have to sign in place of my children, because as their parent, I am the responsible party. Jesus, signed in behalf of the children He loves...you and me and everyone else.

How proud must the zealot be to consider folks "children", who then need someone else to do their signing, or their thinkin' for 'em?

I note many attempts by Christians to enforce their own particular brand of theocracy onto others, as if these "children" where incapable of making decisions for themselves.

[atheist buddy]

First, let us look at who the Old Testament laws were for. They were written for God's people, the Israelites, to set them apart from all others. As God's chosen people, these laws were set so that it would go well for them in the land that God had given them. Through the obedience of these laws, the people's hearts were faithful to the one who redeemed them from their bondage in Egypt.

Let's get this straight. Are you saying that for the Israelites these laws were... good? I know that you don't think we should follow Mosaic Law, but are you saying that it's good that the Israelites did follow it?

Are you saying that at the time it was moral to kill gay people, kill witches, own slaves, force women to marry their rapist, etc?

Are you going to stand here and do ANYTHING other than agree that these laws are evil, were evil, and will always be evil?

We are not Israelites. Christ died on the cross to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike. The death and resurrection of Christ, put us all on the same playing field. We are saved not by the law, but apart from it. Romans 4: Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

I still don't understand how we can live apart from the law. Does it mean that we're allowed to commit murder now? That we're allowed to let gay people live now? I don't undersand.

The 10 commandments are good to follow, and are not obsolete as they are referenced in the new Testament.

The law whereby unruly children must be killed is also referenced in the new testament. Jesus chides the clergy who have come to question him, for not obeying that law.

Look, the Bible is confusing and contradictory. You can quote selectively and get it to support almost anything.

You can find quotes that support the view that the entirety of Mosaic MORAL law is valid and should be followed by all, and you can find quotes that support the view that the entirety of Mosaic MORAL Law can be tossed.

What you CANNOT do without completely abnegating any attachement to consistency and logic, is to attempt to say that "shou shalt not kill" should stay, but "thou shalt not steal" has to go, or that "Thou shalt not bear false witness" should stay, but "kill all gay people" should go. These MORAL laws are all within the same few pages. Mostly exodus 20, 21 and 22.

There is absolutely no ground whatsoever for keeping some and tossing others, other than this argument: Some of the rules are right, have always been right, will always be right. Other rules are wrong, have always been wrong, will always be wrong.

Do you have the courage to admit that the commandment to kill gay people was wrong when it was written, it's wrong now, and it will always be wrong? Can you admit that God made a mistake in writing that Law?

[atheist buddy]

Further, PN, if the old laws were defective and in need of change, what does that say about the supposed originator of those laws? Not very wise, right? Would it not be more sensible to consider all the "laws of God" to be laws made up by humans and attributed to God?

Not at all, my sweet friend! At the time, the laws were written for God's people..His people, to set them apart from everyone else. They were His chosen, and served the purpose to prepare the way for what was to come.

So, at the time, and for the Israelites, was it MORALLY GOOD to kill witches?

Was it EVER morally good to kill witches, gays, unruly children, daughters of priests who have sex, people who work on the sabbath? Was it ever anything other than evil?

Was it EVER morally good to follow the New Testament commandments about the utter and complete subjugation and intrinsic inferiority of women? Was it ever anything other than evil to treat a woman as anything less than equal to man?

Come on, my sweet friend, why can't you write it nice and clear: "It's morally good to treat women as inferior to men". Why can't you just write that? Or why can't you just write "It's NOT morally good to treat women as inferior to men"?

It's because if you say that the subjugation of women and murder of unruly children is good, then you say that which you know to be morally indifensible.

If you say that the subjugation of women and murder of unruly children is bad, then you admit the Bible is wrong.

So you're stuck in the middle, tiptoing around an impossible situation. Twisting like a pretzel in an attempt to slip past the morally fatal questions that wll destory your Christianity, while attempting to maintain a modicum of semblance of attachment to rationality, and failing.

Just admit it! Killing gay people is wrong. Take a load off! Stop trying to defend bronze age murderers!

[Blastcat]

We are TALKING about your god beliefs.

Actually, no, Blastcat, we aren't. You aren't, anyway. ...and you don't get to define my beliefs for me.

When I say that we were talking about your god beliefs, PERHAPS my words werent as precise as I intended. You missed the meaning.

Allow me to explain in detail, since each and every word that I write is so contestable.

What I meant that the discussion we were TRYING to have was ABOUT what you might or might not believe in a religious sense. We are TRYING to have a conversation about RELIGIOUS beliefs.. not my lack of religious beliefs, but your religious beliefs.

The forum debate is ABOUT religious beliefs. This is THE SUBJECT of debate, without which there wouldnt BE any discussion or debate.

We arent talking about some other persons religious beliefs here. We are talking or TRYING to talk about your religious beliefs. Your personal religious beliefs.

SO because I dont know every iota of every dot of every whatever it is you believe, I took some GUESSES, called them GUESSES, and asked for CLARIFICATION and CORRECTION if my GUESSES were wrong. Did you miss that part?

I am NOT interested in making straw man arguments. SO, if any of my GUESSES are wrong, I am HAPPY to have your corrections and that you set me straight.

PLEASE tell me what you DO believe, instead of complaining that its not this and not that. If you dont tell me PRECISELY what you DO believe, I still have to take an educated guess.

BUT ITS STILL A GUESS.. I am NOT telling you or dictating to you what you do or should believe.

My ONLY purpose in here is to TRY TO MAKE SENSE OUT OF WEIRD BELIEFS.

So, do correct me, DO clarify, and most of all DO TELL ME WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ACTUALLY ARE. Dont be shy. Unless, of course, you cant or wont tell me what you actually believe, in which case, the discussion is pretty much over at that point.
If you read what I wrote to you above, you might notice that

1. I DON'T define your beliefs, I took a guess. I asked you to correct me if I guess wrong.

2. I ASKED you to actually define your beliefs.

3. I EXPLAINED why you should.

4. I made a CASE against straw man arguments.

5. You seem to not understand that when we DEBATE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, we are actually going to want to debate Christian beliefs. That's what I'm trying to do.

6. I don't WANT to define your beliefs for you.

7. I made a case for you to EXPLAIN your beliefs as well as you possibly can SO that I don't misunderstand your positions.

here's a suggestion: rather than dictating to me what my beliefs 'really' are, and then going at them hammer and tongs, why don't you ask me, and then if you have a problem with them, you address them?

I have to thank you for re-iterating my own point to me.

That's exactly what I tried to do. Now you say that I should do what I want to do. Ok. I will do what I really want to do. I will avoid to do what I really want to avoid to do and said that we ALL avoid to do.

So, I'll gladly take you up on your suggestion, as I made that suggestion in the post you are replying to.

It would be quite refreshing, actually, to have someone actually do that.

I love refreshments, too. I would find it EQUALLY refreshing for someone to NOT make the exact same point I made to THEM just previously. We agree.. so you don't have to INSIST on a point I was making. I agree with my very own points.

Odd, but there you go. I agree with myself.

I don't see where you have any gripes coming. If God exists, then I think you can see that He's doing the best He can with a bunch of obstreperous offspring who, frankly, don't listen very well.

THE BEST HE CAN?.. How ridiculous. Sorry.

Poor, poor, all-knowing, all-powerful god..he's doing the very best he can. He might LIKE to do better.. but he can't. He just can't DEAL with these silly little creatures of his?

Not if these 'silly little creatures of his" actually CAN make their own decisions. You can't have this both ways. Either we have free will, in which case we CAN do stupid and evil things without His interference, or we don't, in which case then you might have a point. I believe that we do. Since you claim that we ARE discussing MY beliefs, you have to deal with that.

If we have free will, then we have free will. We can choose to do evil. God will not interfere.

Good point. IF you have free-will, IF god cares about free-will, IF your god isnt an interfering god. IF, IF, IF. I guess these are YOUR beliefs. I dont want to straw-man you here.

Of course, my first question to any god believer is how do you know that? You BELIEVE it I suppose, but how did you find that out? Do you know this is true, or are these opinions , only?

But lets talk about your beliefs, since youve been so kind as to express them.

So, in your view, GOD does NOT interfere with anyone. God does NOT intervene. Prayer is out? God does NOT communicate with humans?.. That would be intervening, interfering, right?

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF MY GUESS IS WRONG. PLEASE CLARIFY IF YOU NEED TO.

What do you MEAN by God's interference? Are you a deist? God created the universe and then does NOTHING to interfere with his creation?

You said I can't have it both ways. Can you?

But my point was that GOD, the all knowing might be able to figure out how to NOT interfere, and YET have it so people don't go around being nasty. You didn't address his infinite KNOWLEDGE of how to do stuff.

God, in his infinite wisdom could have figured out a way to have free people make the BEST choices out of love and so forth. What a wonderful world THAT would have been. BUT NO. For some reason, your god creates evil and then punishes people for freely choosing evil, because God needs to do what.. ?

Why the need for this test, in your opinion?

Can I give you a small example to illustrate how MY parenting would go? Lets say I dont want my child to shoot someone with a gun in the house. I leave fully loaded guns with the safeties off all over the house. What do you think of my parenting skills now?

Might you NOT think that I should take the guns away if I feel like that? .. or is it OK for you to hear me say :

Oh, that evil Johnny is playing with the guns again, I sure hope he doesnt learn how to pull the trigger... I want Johnny to have free-will, you see. I dont want to interfere with Johnnys freedom of choice in the matter.

BUT if Johnny DOES shoot someone.. then I will surely PUNISH that unruly child, because its important to me what his choices actually ARE, but only after the fact. I wont try to prevent any actual murder. Hey.. where are you going?

God set it up that humans COULD fail. Its like in my example. He left EVIL lying all over the place for humans to pick up and play with.

As you say, he doesnt INTERFERE with any evil, evil can HAPPEN horrible evil things people do.. all GODS PLAN. ( god knowing everything, would know the future, as well, since the future is a part of everything. So when god made his plan, and created evil in it, he KNEW the horrible things that people would do to one another IN ADVANCE. )

This is worse than the human parent with the guns lying all over the house. The human cant actually KNOW the future events. Maybe the child wont kill anyone. But an all-knowing god WOULD know one way or the other. SO, if there is any evil perpetrated by humans, GOD KNEW in advance. God planed it that way.

God wanted many humans to FAIL and to be PUNISHED.. and to BURN in hell for eternity. IN FACT, it will be my contention that this GOD wanted MOST humans to burn in hell for eternity.

Isaiah 45:7 - King James Bible -

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


And then, my other point was that an ALL POWERFUL god could do whatever he thought up. He doesn't HAVE TO HAVE unruly children. He can have perfectly behaved children who all go to heaven in the end. He could get rid of hell.. and have everyone go to heaven.

Heck, if I can think things up, so can god. I can simply REMOVE all guns from my house, and god could have easily NOT have created evil in the first place. There would have been NO NEED to have a weird test he already knows the results of.

Imagine rolling the dice and always knowing the outcome BEFORE it happens. Pretty boring game. Id play if for twelve seconds and give up. Why do you think an infinite being would find predestination ( so called free-will ) interesting at all?

God doesnt KNOW what people are going to do before they do it? .. then God isnt all knowing.
God DOES know in advance what people are going to do ? .. then why bother with what people are going to do?

That's silly. An all powerful god can do ANYTHING. ...

Omnipotence isn't omnipotence if one cannot choose NOT to do something one is able to do.

I think the definition of omnipotence is being able to do EVERYTHING. There isn't anything that can't be DONE if one is omnipotent. IF there is something that cannot be done, then the being isn't OMNIpotent, but just VERY potent.

ALL and SOME are not the same words.

EITHER your god can do EVERYTHING .. and that's everything, not just most things.. not just almost everything, but quite literally every thing... THEN your god isn't omnipotent.

WORDS have meanings. If your god has restrictions on what it can DO.. then it isn't omnipotent because it can't DO everything.

Now, you say that your god CHOOSES not to do something it can do. AH. My point was exactly that. He could choose it if he so desired.

So, your god desires that SOME people CHOOSE to do bad things. As you say.. to be able to CHOOSE is what free will means. So people have been CREATED to choose one way or the other.

That's How YOUR GOD CHOSE TO CREATE US. And.. that's why there's a hell.

Ten ways to go to hell:

1. IF you chose poorly, you go to hell.
2. IF you don't believe in a hell, you go to hell.
3. IF you do good things and you don't believe in god, you go to hell.
4. IF you don't believe in heaven, you go to hell.
5. IF you do bad things and you don't believe in god you go to hell.
6. IF you believe in SOME other god, you go to hell.
7. IF you believe in some other god, and do good things you go to hell
8. IF you believe in some other god and you do bad things you go to hell.
9. Now that Jesus is in the picture IF you don't believe in Jesus too, you go to hell.
10. IF you believe in Jesus and don't do good things, you go to hell.

Three ways to go to heaven.. maybe:

11. IF you believe in Jesus and do good things you go to heaven.
12. If you do bad things and you believe in god............ not sure if you go to hell or not.
13. IF you do good things and you believe in god .. you go to heaven.

But just mostly, people go to hell.
ONLY a VERY select few people go to heaven.

God's plan seems to be to send as many people to hell as possible.
But I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I'm just saying that's how I understand your position.
PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

I insist.

So, the problem of evil remains. Don't tell me that an all powerful, all knowing being cant DEAL with a bunch of recalcitrant dimwits.

OH COME ON.

I believe that He deals with us just fine.

I believe you believe what you believe just fine. You believe a god who creates EVIL treats his creature just fine? Do you believe that going to hell to burn for eternity is treating people just fine? How odd.

Id say there are NO crimes that would be fairly punished by an eternity in hell. NONE. Gods reputed treatment of people isnt fine at all. Its DEMENTEDLY EVIL BEYOND BELIEF. Thats my opinion.

You can. actually believe anything you like. BUT if you want to convince anyone that what you believe in is true or reasonable.. then you need to present your reasons.

You believe what you believe. That's a big ten four.

You believe that burning people is fine. I dont.

Decisions have consequences. Some are natural and expected results of actions taken (refusing to leave your home on the side of Mt. St. Helen during an eruption is going to get you dead), and some are the workings of justice (stealing something can get you caught, tried and jailed).

Consequences and justice come after the decision, though, not before. if not so, how would it be 'justice?'

The only reason we need "justice" is because evil is possible in the first place. THANK YOU GOD.

People were created by the creator to have this "free-will" capacity to do evil. And so, the god creates "justice to deal with this evil AFTER it has occurred.

But this creator god could have PREVENTED ALL EVIL. He wanted evil, he created evil, he is ultimately TO BLAME for evil. His little idiotic creatures were PROGRAMED to be evil. Most of them burn in hell for being evil little shits.

This is god's plan. This is the way he CHOSE to create people. But he could have done ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL. Being all knowing, He could have figured out something that both preserves FREE WILL AND GOODNESS at all times.

It's only stupid limited HUMANS who aren't all knowing and can't figure things out. BUT an ALL knowing god would have KNOWN that.

So, why does a benevolent god set it up so that most people who have ever lived go to hell?

This story makes NO sense whatsoever.

HOWEVER.. in MY opinion,

if the god is EVIL.. then it makes a lot more sense.
Most people go to hell.. that's an evil messed up plan. That makes more sense to me than an all loving god. Most people or ALL people would go to heaven if god was truly super good.

If he does not exist, then blaming Him for any of this is useless...not to mention more than a little bit idiotic.

Atheists don't believe in any god. PERIOD. So, YEAH.. if any one of us blamed what we think doesn't EXIST for anything.. it would be WAY more than just a little idiotic, for sure.

BUT, we DON'T actually blame any god.. .. duh.. If we BLAME anyone .. we blame the people who take old superstitious fantasies as LITERALLY TRUE. IN my personal view, it's really WEIRD that grown-ups would take ancient fairy tales as true.[/quote]

Y'know, I'd accept that if you weren't so determined to tell me what I 'really' believed so that you could yell about it. most of the stuff you rail at doesn't apply to those beliefs, and you STILL claim that you are discussing [my] beliefs.

I can only conclude, then, that you have a definite idea of God; not my beliefs about Him, but of God Himself, since you insist that I accept that idea...and you don't like Him.

(shrug)

What, are you afraid that if someone came up with an idea of God that you COULDN'T despise, you'd have to think about Him with a bit more charity?

First off.. No, I dont have emotions about a fictional character. WITHIN the context of the story, I can go boooooo, bad character in a story. Thats like me not liking Voldermort in the Harry Potter books. Its exactly the same as Voldermort, as the evil wizards in the Lord of the Rings in the STORY they arent nice. I dont have REAL emotions about these story book characters.

Secondly, Im pretty sure that you CAN come up with a spin on the story to make Yahweh sound pretty nice. But thats a spin. Thats an interpretation, and you are very welcome to it.

HOWEVER, if your version is internally inconsistent, it wont wash.
And this is the problem I have with your version here.

You say god is good?.. he creates evil.. not so good.. thats incoherent.
You say god doesnt interfere? Then, he wants free will more than goodness.

But I dont want to straw man your position. IS IT YOUR BELIEF THAT GOD CREATED EVIL?

( I capitalize things that I find IMPORTANT , so the question is important. I ask you for YOUR belief )
Thirdly, I cant even begin to imagine why your god needs my CHARITY. What a weird idea. An all powerful , all knowing god needs me to be nice to it. Ahhh poor god. Lets be charitable.. lets forgive his little CREATING EVIL what the hey.

COME ON give the all powerful god of the universe a freaking BREAK why dont we?... Just like he does when he sends most people who have ever lived to HELL what about that charity?

What about GODS charity ALLOWING evil things to happen all over the world? What about that charity?

Your plea makes no sense. FIRST off, I am ONLY charitable to actual PEOPLE who are in actual NEED. Your god isnt a person. Its an idea. You believe this idea is real. I dont. I wont be charitable to this fiction. Secondly, the god you seem to believe in deserves NO charity. He is evil, in my opinion, horribly evil. Thirdly, what can god NEED of charity? This god has everything. Hard to buy something for the guy who has everything.

Now as to your bizarre idea that I have a definite idea about your god.

I dont have one of those. I have a story book that I can read. I read and listen to all kinds of people telling me that god is this and god is that

BUT I DO NOT HAVE ANY BELIEF. I do , however, have ideas.
Just like you, ideas.

I can defend my ideas.
Just like you

I dont base my life on these ideas. My ideas are MERELY opinions about what I take to be a fictional character. What I DO base my life on is logic and reasoning, good will to all men, and the principles of humanism.

Now, I come in here and find myself reading things that Christians believe in. I see many holes in their thinking. I find most of their beliefs completely inconsistent and irrational.

I follow their logic as best as I can. I dont arrive at the same conclusions as they do. So we have a conflict. Using YOUR logic, I have come to the conclusion that God is evil, or most likely evil.

This is not a conviction, this is not a belief, this is a conclusion based on the available data.
So, yeah, go ahead. Demonstrate that your logic should lead to YOUR conclusion and not mine.

I love a good logical argument.
Lets look at your logic and see how it makes sense.

So far.. not to me.
I try to explain how.
In detail. Maybe in way too much detail.

And I am NOT a logician, so my critique wont be perfect. I wish that it was.
But thats what the conversation is about for me.
Looking at the logic behind the beliefs.

I find religious beliefs lacking in logic.
Thats what Im here for. Debating the logic behind the beliefs.

Now, having said that, I hope you see that its VITAL for my project that I understand precisely what you believe in and WHY you believe it, too.

When I make a guess about your god beliefs, its to save time.
If my guess is wrong, you dont have to chastise me for trying to understand you, you can simply CORRECT me, and I will thank you for it.

I ONLY WANT TO DEBATE YOUR ACTUAL BELIEFS.
I ONLY WANT TO DEBATE YOUR ACTUAL BELIEFS.

Hope thats clear.

But it's even MORE weird that someone would think that I believe in something that I don't believe in. I don't believe in gods. ATHEISTS are DEFINED as non god believers.. so of course, unless you find a CRAZY kind of atheist.. not one of us is going to blame or have EMOTIONS about that mythical, fictional character.

Fictional characters aren't real. So we can tell the difference between what is real, and what is fictional.

Can you?

Indeed. What's more important, I can tell the difference between the God you insist I believe in, and the God I actually do believe in. When you figure out the difference, we might actually get somewhere.

Ok, please tell me about the god you believe in.

I have a few questions in that regard to help us along in our mutual understanding.

1. Is your god the creator of evil?
2. Is your god sending most people to hell?
3. Is hell a bad place, is there any REDEMPTION POSSIBLE IN HELL?... can people get out?
4. Why is your god so interested in free-will?
5. Is your god actually omnipotent, or are there things he cant do?
6. Is your god actually omniscient, or are there things he cant know?

Thats a start.

[dianaiad]

<snip the snark>
So, in your view, GOD does NOT interfere with anyone. God does NOT intervene. Prayer is out? God does NOT communicate with humans?.. That would be intervening, interfering, right?

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF MY GUESS IS WRONG. PLEASE CLARIFY IF YOU NEED TO.

What do you MEAN by God's interference? Are you a deist? God created the universe and then does NOTHING to interfere with his creation?

You said I can't have it both ways. Can you?

<snip more snark>

Here are my beliefs. You can work with them or not, as you wish.

1. I believe that there is a God.
2. I believe that He is, quite literally, my spiritual Father.
3. I believe (because this is important) that I am His, quite literally, His child.
4. I believe that the entire purpose of our life here is to grow up and begin to learn to be the adult that He is.
5. I believe that, just as parents here allow their children to learn, grow, have experiences and make decisions even when they can enforce their wills in opposition to those decisions, so God allows us to make our own decisions and learn our own lessons.
6. I believe that, even though our mortal lives feel VERY permanent, and very final, they are not; decisions we make here are learning experiences and, though they do very much affect our growth as individuals, that this life is boot camp, university, kindergarten and license exams, all rolled up in one huge experience. life changing, but not life ending.

To use your example of the loaded guns in the house: I believe that what we have here is more like dialing the kid into a virtual game; it FEELS real to him, and if he picks up a gun and shoots himself, it's going to hurt..and perhaps even end the game, but when he walks out of the virtual reality, he's fine. He's learned something. He's shaky. His future may well depend upon the decisions he made, and whether or not he can be trusted in a room full of loaded guns 'for real' depends on how he handled the virtual idea.

But they are his decisions.

7. I believe that God CAN interfere; He chooses not to, unless asked...and unless such interference is a good idea in His opinion. Or else it might be more like a TV or radio receiver; the power to do stuff is out there, but if we can't access it, it may as well not be, for us. In that case, it's up to use to build the receiver and learn how to 'plug in,' which may well be a part of that growing up thing I referred to earlier.

8. I believe that we are, as someone has put it, 'gods in embryo." We are not creatures. We are not puppets. We are not automatons programmed to specific behavior and designed to fail. We are children who don't know how to behave yet, and who need to learn, deeply and for ourselves, how to behave and how to treat others.

Your rant about how God, if He really IS omnipotent, completely missed the point I was making. Being omnipotent does indeed mean that He can do anything.

It must ALSO mean that He can choose not to do something that He can do; if He cannot choose not to do something He can do, how is that omnipotence? God is also supposed to be omniscient, yes? Wouldn't that mean that He would know when it is best NOT to do something?

In the case of this life, and of us, I believe that means that He knows that we must learn our own lessons, whether those lessons hurt us, and others, or not.

These are my beliefs. I am not an evangelical fundamentalist Christian. I am not Orthodox, or orthodox. I am a Mormon. Rail all you want about what you think "Christian" beliefs are, but remember this: Christians, like theists everywhere (and like atheists everywhere) differ with one another in their beliefs and opinions, all in their own individual searches for philosophical and religious truths. I think I'm on the right track, and that my beliefs fully reconcile the 'problem of evil,' and all the other....stuff...you are on about, at least for me.

...........and you have absolutely no ideal how ironically amusing your own rant here is to a Mormon who has been taught about something called 'the war in heaven."

(grin)

Indeed, I think I recognize the script.

[Blastcat]

<snip the snark>
So, in your view, GOD does NOT interfere with anyone. God does NOT intervene. Prayer is out? God does NOT communicate with humans?.. That would be intervening, interfering, right?

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF MY GUESS IS WRONG. PLEASE CLARIFY IF YOU NEED TO.

What do you MEAN by God's interference? Are you a deist? God created the universe and then does NOTHING to interfere with his creation?

You said I can't have it both ways. Can you?

<snip more snark>


Thanks for the start. I'm sad to see that you didn't choose to respond to some questions I asked but you DID answer one. So thanks for that. It really helps.



1. Is your god the creator of evil? You didn't say.
2. Is your god sending most people to hell? You didn't say.
3. Is hell a bad place, is there any REDEMPTION POSSIBLE IN HELL?... can people get out? You didn't say.
4. Why is your god so interested in free-will? You didn't say.
5. Is your god actually omnipotent, or are there things he cant do? You did answer, thanks, that helps.
6. Is your god actually omniscient, or are there things he cant know? You didn't say.

Please explain what you mean by "more snark". Sounds like an insult. What I SEE is that you ignore most of what I wrote to you. You dismiss it as "more snark". But if you don't actually address the points, I notice.

Here are my beliefs. You can work with them or not, as you wish.

Do you care if I do or not?
Do you care about your own beliefs?

1. I believe that there is a God.

Well, ok. That's a start. I wanted to know about your beliefs. I ASSUMED that there was a god involved in your god beliefs.

HOWEVER,

When it comes to EXPLAINING your god .. that didn't help very much. You believe in one. But, WHAT IS IT?
WHAT IS this "thing" you call a god?
I'm trying to UNDERSTAND what you MEAN by a god... so, explaining what you MEAN by the term would be helpful here.

2. I believe that He is, quite literally, my spiritual Father.

I can't even BEGIN to comprehend what you mean by the above. A LITERAL FATHER is a biological human father, so your god can't be that.

A SPIRITUAL FATHER.. is.... something I better not guess at.

What is a spiritual thing?
What is a spiritual FATHER thing?
What is a LITERAL spiritual father thing?

I get no meaning from the assertion.
Can you help me understand your meaning?

3. I believe (because this is important) that I am His, quite literally, His child.

Well, that doesn't help explain number 2 at all. It actually, makes it worse.

OF COURSE YOU CAN'T LITERALLY BE "HIS" CHILD.

You JUST said that your god is a spiritual thing, whatever THAT means. DO you mean that your god is your BIOLOGICAL HUMAN FATHER?

Is your god your actual, literal male PROGENITOR?
And what happened to dear mom and dad in your picture?

So, do you ACTUALLY mean FIGURATIVE instead of literal, here?

And what does that mean?

What are the IMPLICATIONS of you being your god's so called child..whatever that means?

Does it mean that your god feeds you?
Does it mean that your god clothes you, protects you INTERFERES with you?

Does it mean that your god drove you to SCHOOL?
DID god pack your lunch?

Did your god bring you to the doctor?

Can we get a DNA test on that god dad of yours?
What if he ISN'T your dad, after all?

What if you mean that you are his child in a FIGURATIVE way, and you just made a small error?

4. I believe that the entire purpose of our life here is to grow up and begin to learn to be the adult that He is.

Your god grew up?
Your god was a child?
Your god was born and counted years enough for us to call him an ADULT now?
I thought your god was INFINITE.. so I don't get how he could "grow up" and be an "adult" now.

What do you really MEAN by "adult"?

BUT as to humans learning stuff. WE DO.

We don't need any god to learn stuff, though.

We have parents who teach us stuff. We have books, we have teachers, we have friends who can teach us stuff. There are secular laws we better learn, we can Google things, we can study nature, all of this knowledge available, and NO need of a god.

We can learn ethics from the philosophers, we can learn the laws from the law makers, we can learn how to be good people by interacting with people and noticing their reactions to us.

Generally speaking, if we act nicely to people , they like it. We need a GOD to teach us that? I don't. I knew that in KINDERGARTEN. Share my toys, be nice to other kids.

Why do you need a god to teach you stuff?
What stuff are you talking about that you have to learn?

What are these lessons ABOUT?

5. I believe that, just as parents here allow their children to learn, grow, have experiences and make decisions even when they can enforce their wills in opposition to those decisions, so God allows us to make our own decisions and learn our own lessons.

Well, I'm sorry to say..your parenting skills leave A LOT to be desired if that's how you would describe a GOOD parent.

A GOOD parent takes CARE of his children. A GOOD parent INTERFERES in his children's life. A GOOD parent just doesn't ALLOW his children to do anything that comes into their young unformed brains. NO.

A good parent would say..

JUNIOR GET OUT OF THE STREET. DON'T PLAY IN THAT TRAFFIC.
A GOOD parent doesn't just WATCH the kid do something stupid and dangerous and then PUNISH the kid when he does.

A BAD PARENT MIGHT. So if your god is a parent, the way you describe it, your god is a very bad parent indeed.

There is a time and a place for letting kids learn on their own. It is important. BUT there are VERY IMPORTANT TIMES when it is NOT a good idea.

ALLOWING kids to get cancer, to drown, to starve, to die of any number of horrible diseases and NOT do what is possible to PREVENT the suffering?

MONSTROUSLY EVIL.

Especially when this parent is supposed to be ALL POWERFUL.

Allowing evil to happen to a kid when it is super easy to prevent is MONSTROUS and it is EVIL.

At least, if you're going to compare your god to human parents. If human parents had ALL POWERS.. we know what they would do. NO KIDS would ever get cancer. NO kids would die of starvation or the flu.

ONLY the MOST evil parents would allow ANY suffering to happen to their child. ANY suffering. So, whats the PLAN?

Why do any kids have to suffer?
Why does ANY evil have to exist?

6. I believe that, even though our mortal lives feel VERY permanent,

NOT TO ME IT DOESN'T. So, maybe talk for yourself. My life feels ANYTHING BUT permanent. It feels VERY impermanent.

PLEASE do not tell me what I feel or think, and I will offer you the same kind of courtesy. thank you.

and very final,

Well, I DO agree with you there. Most evidence is that death is pretty final.

they are not; decisions we make here are learning experiences and, though they do very much affect our growth as individuals, that this life is boot camp, university, kindergarten and license exams, all rolled up in one huge experience. life changing, but not life ending.

What are we learning FOR, in your view?
You say there is an after life. Of course, there is ZIP evidence of that. So, I'll not follow you there.

We learn things while alive, or we can learn things while alive. I have to agree with you there. We do, and we can.

So what does this have to do with what your god is, or what you believe in?

WE learn things? OK we learn things. How is this helpful in describing what your GOD beliefs are?

To use your example of the loaded guns in the house: I believe that what we have here is more like dialing the kid into a virtual game; it FEELS real to him, and if he picks up a gun and shoots himself, it's going to hurt..and perhaps even end the game, but when he walks out of the virtual reality, he's fine. He's learned something. He's shaky. His future may well depend upon the decisions he made, and whether or not he can be trusted in a room full of loaded guns 'for real' depends on how he handled the virtual idea.

But they are his decisions.

Now, you just made a straw man argument out of my example.
what you describe is NOT my example, but your example.

IN YOUR example, some things are real, and some things are not real.

OK.. in your example, the kid is real, I am real, but the gun ISNT.

AND that is a straw man version of MY story.

Because in MY story, all of it is real. I am a real parent, the kid is a real kid, and the bullets are real, and the guns are real. And hey.. in the real world we live in, it's the same. Guns are real in our world. Bullets hurt people. Bullets KILL people. People die.

So, thank you for MAKING A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

But I wasn't TALKING about virtual guns or imaginary guns. I was talking about real guns.

How about we don't go into your variable, virtual somethings are real and somethings are not kind of world JUST to help you make a bogus case?

How about we stick to MY story, MY example, in which BOTH the child, the gun and any potential VICTIM of both are REAL.

HOW about we don't spend ANY time worrying about your misrepresentation of my actual story?

How about that?
Waddaya say?

Because if I did. and if I wanted to make SENSE out of your version, I would have to ask you how you know that

PARTS that help your argument aren't REAL all of a sudden?
Why are the GUNS not real, but the kid is real, and any potential victim is real?

How did THAT magic happen?
Did you just ad hoc it into existence to prove your point?

Do you believe that you can invent what is real and what isn't?
Are guns not real to you for some reason?
Would you like to TEST that very surprising hypothesis? ( I can think of a painful experiment )

7. I believe that God CAN interfere; He chooses not to, unless asked...and unless such interference is a good idea in His opinion. Or else it might be more like a TV or radio receiver; the power to do stuff is out there, but if we can't access it, it may as well not be, for us. In that case, it's up to use to build the receiver and learn how to 'plug in,' which may well be a part of that growing up thing I referred to earlier.

So the god watches us suffer. .. he invents suffering, he invents evil, and then watches us squirm. IF we pray well enough and worship him.. then we get to worship him forever. OTHERWISE, it's burn, baby, burn. Neither option is interesting to me.

I guess I'd LIKE to avoid pain. Thanks for all that pain, God. I don't want to burn in hell on top of it all.

8. I believe that we are, as someone has put it, 'gods in embryo." We are not creatures. We are not puppets. We are not automatons programmed to specific behavior and designed to fail. We are children who don't know how to behave yet, and who need to learn, deeply and for ourselves, how to behave and how to treat others.

You don't believe that your god created you?
Weird statement.

You weren't designed with the capacity to fail or to choose unwisely? It seems to me that you WERE designed with free will.. at least that's what you said above.

You have free will. You can choose unwisely. You can choose anything you like. UNTIL you die, then whatever you chose.. REALLY MATTERS all of a sudden.

I have to wonder why it doesn't matter at all when your alive, but ONLY after you are dead?

Weird. Life doesn't seem so real... maybe that's why you don't think guns are real... reality for you seems.... not so interesting as.. THE AFTER LIFE...

You seem to be more fixated on what might happen to you AFTER you die.. than what happens WHILE you live.

Weird.

You say that you are a kid who needs to learn. Why on EARTH or in hell, would you be PUNISHED for something you don't know YET?

Unless you say your god is evil or incredibly unfair, we just don't normally PUNISH PEOPLE for something they don't KNOW about.

Whats all this PUNISHMENT for?

And I have addressed your question before in this post about how to treat others.
We should treat others well.
I have NO idea why you think you need a WHOLE god to "teach" you that, when humans have done the job for EONS.

Your rant about how God, if He really IS omnipotent, completely missed the point I was making. Being omnipotent does indeed mean that He can do anything.

OK.. that's the ONLY question I asked you that you have answered. Thank you.

WE NOW AGREE ON THE MEANING OF THE WORD "Omnipotent".. what a HUGE victory for mankind.

Yep, if you believe that your god can do anything, then it can do pretty much everything. Kinda by definition.

But hey. Good definition.

It must ALSO mean that He can choose not to do something that He can do; if He cannot choose not to do something He can do, how is that omnipotence? God is also supposed to be omniscient, yes? Wouldn't that mean that He would know when it is best NOT to do something?

I wont debate whether an all powerful being ENTAILS being able to not do stuff. Sounds like an utterly pedantic question.

Even I am not that pedantic. ( no snarky remarks from the peanut gallery, please )

HOWEVER,

This means that he allows evil to happen. That's what it means.
He apparently LOVES us so much, that he allows us to suffer.

You would LIKE to assume that he has good reasons to do so, and yet you can offer NO SUCH REASONS for him to do so.

OTHER than, this wonderful freedom we have to suffer. OH.. what?
We DON'T have the freedom to choose not to suffer?

We just GET to suffer, and that's it? No matter what our FREE CHOICE might be about it you say we can STILL get cancer and die horribly?

Well, the fact remains that god's reasons, GOOD OR BAD are completely unknown to you. YOU say they are good reasons or COULD be good reasons.

Well, I say that this god might have THE WORST REASONS in the universe. That's what cancer on a child means to me.

It's a pretty evil kind of thing. People do NOT choose cancer in their children freely. NOT THE GOOD ONES.

People DO WHAT THEY CAN to prevent and stop all cancers in their children. AT LEAST THE GOOD ONES DO.

So, it looks like your god doesn't DO a lot of good. It looks like your GOD does a lot of bad. That is CONSISTENT with an evil kind of a god, but WEIRD and strange for a loving god.

You do have your faith that this god of yours is good.
Nothing much else than that.

Hopes and wishes.
I hope so too.

So what though?
Our hopes and wishes do NOT affect reality.

Your god MIGHT be good.
But your god also MIGHT be evil.

In the case of this life, and of us, I believe that means that He knows that we must learn our own lessons, whether those lessons hurt us, and others, or not.

You say you know what god knows. I'm not sure you actually CAN know what god knows, or YOU WOULD KNOW IT, and not have to guess.

Lets say that your god was perfectly evil. How would you know you aren't being deceived as an extra evil thing to do to you? You spend all your life believe that your god is good.. and he turns out evil. What an extra kick in the pants, NO?

Kinda evil in a petty kind of way.
Don't you think that would add insult to injury?
An extra evil little touch?

An all powerful god can't do that?

These are my beliefs. I am not an evangelical fundamentalist Christian. I am not Orthodox, or orthodox. I am a Mormon. Rail all you want about what you think "Christian" beliefs are, but remember this: Christians, like theists everywhere (and like atheists everywhere) differ with one another in their beliefs and opinions, all in their own individual searches for philosophical and religious truths. I think I'm on the right track, and that my beliefs fully reconcile the 'problem of evil,' and all the other....stuff...you are on about, at least for me.

Well THANK you for adding some real information here. You say you are a Mormon. OK.. most Christians would call you on the fringe of Christianity at best. Some wouldn't even CALL you a Christian.

Now, as to all of my "other stuff" as you call it. Sorry about that. Sorry that you don't choose to address all my other stuff...whatever that is.

You almost make is sound as if you have NO idea what it is.. almost as if you didn't even bother to read it.

I'm beginning to think that I write too long in this ADD word of ours.

I am WAY too exhaustive.
I want to debate EVERY SINGLE POINT that others make because I take it so important what they bother to write in the first place.

Stuff indeed.
I write about YOUR stuff.

It's YOUR stuff im on about.
You should be so interested in that stuff.

...........and you have absolutely no ideal how ironically amusing your own rant here is to a Mormon who has been taught about something called 'the war in heaven."

(grin)

Indeed, I think I recognize the script.

I write my own script, I assure you. Thanks for letting me know that you come from a Mormon perspective.

That's an outsider perspective to most other kinds of Christians. All that "Joseph Smith" stuff .. not accepted, generally by the run of the mill Christian out there.

[ttruscott]

...

In Hebrews 8, Jesus is superior to the Old Covenant. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete.

A covenant means an agreement between two or more parties stipulating that they are bound by its terms. (Actual definition: an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified).

Who, exactly, are the parties / people who have agreed to do or not do something?

Since no one has authority to make an agreement for another person (unless specifically authorized " as with a Power of Attorney or similar vehicle) " WHO signed (agreed) for any of us?

...

The agreement is between YHWH and HIS elect people. The elect signed for themselves when they accepted YHWH as their GOD and accepted HIS free gift of election to heaven by means of the salvation found in HIS Son. Whether overtly said or only implied, the offer of salvation included the promise to do anything and every thing needed to fulfill HIS promises for their salvation and all these things were implicitly accepted.

Peace, Ted

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 83 by JoeyKnothead]

Just as any child does, we have the opportunity to rebel.