I do not believe god stories and neither do you

[Zzyzx]

.
The hallmark of Atheism / Non-Theism is disbelief in stories about gods. This seems to be considered by many Theists to be wrong (at the very least).

However, Theists typically take exactly the same "do not believe god stories" position regarding any of the thousands of proposed gods other than their favorite. Their reason for rejecting other gods is the same as Non-Theists use in refusing to believe tales about the Bible God " lack of credible, compelling evidence the stories are any more than imaginary (though they may add that they already believe in one god and cannot believe in more than one).

"The Bible says so " in three different places" is NOT credible, compelling evidence unless one already accepts the Bible as "the Word of God" (or whatever).

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

[Divine Insight]

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

As a "Non-Theist", I do not dismiss the Abrahamic Religions due to "lack of evidence". On the contrary, it is my position that there is overwhelming evidence again them contained in their very own scriptures. If it were solely a matter of lack of evidence alone they might have been far more interesting.

[DefenderofTruth]

the fact that there are more religions out there does not say anything about any of them individually... For instance, we have many theories of how life began on this planet... Wether it is by a step by step natural process with RNA, directed panspermia, or a bolt of lightning jump starting life... These are competing theories of how life started, it does not mean they are all wrong... I don't see why that is any different then the subject of God...

Actually, as a Christian, i am inclined to say that the other religions are another piece of the puzzle. That other religions play a role in Gods plan. For instance, as Christians, we believe that there will be war in the world, or even more precisely there will be war in the middle east.. This is a prophecy in Christianity, it is prophetic. And we see evidence of this with Jihad..

Jihad literally means "holy war", and God knew it. So is Islam wrong then? is it a fake God? I think that Islam supports Christianity for the reason i gave.. Islam support our belief about God.. It also goes really deep in theology as well, How the Arabs are also sons of Abraham, because Abraham is the father of Ishmael... I think this stuff is right in line with Biblical teachings...


Even the atheist is right in line with Gods plan... Because God told us all about you guys, you guys illustrate truth in scripture.. God told us you will reject the Cornerstone of the faith. God told us that you will proclaim that you are intelligent for just that.. God told us that you will see the message as foolishness...

You yourself shows truth to Gods Word, and you don't even believe in God..

It is not a question of if other religions contradict Christianity, because they don't, and neither do atheists at that matter... Because God knows all.

[atheist buddy]

the fact that there are more religions out there does not say anything about any of them individually... For instance, we have many theories of how life began on this planet... Wether it is by a step by step natural process with RNA, directed panspermia, or a bolt of lightning jump starting life... These are competing theories of how life started, it does not mean they are all wrong...

Right. We don't know which one of the several theories for abiogenesis is true. therefore.... WE DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF THEM, and instead continue exploring the subject and try to look for empirical evidence which will show which one is the true one.

I don't see why that is any different then the subject of God...

I agree. Just like we don't believe in either abiogenesis hypothesis because there isn't enough evidence for any of them, we shouldnt believe in any God hypothesis because there isn't enough evidence for any of them.

In fact, for many God hypotheses there is overwhelming evidence AGAINST them. Like for example the "God got a virgin pregnant magically" hypothesis.

Actually, as a Christian, i am inclined to say that the other religions are another piece of the puzzle. That other religions play a role in Gods plan. For instance, as Christians, we believe that there will be war in the world, or even more precisely there will be war in the middle east.. This is a prophecy in Christianity, it is prophetic. And we see evidence of this with Jihad..

Are you serious? There is war in the world, and you thank that people who point out "There is war in the world" therefore must have some kind of prophetic super-power?

There isn't war and violence only in the middle east! There is, always has been, and always will be war EVERYWHERE. Civil wars in the US, coups and counter coups in south america, genocide in Europe, ethnic clensing in Darfur, the Japanese invading China, war in Korea, war in Russia, child-armies in Somalia, genocide in Australia, etc etc etc.

To say that somehow the fact that there is war is evidence that people who predicted there would be war are somehow gifted with supernatural powers is absurd.

It's like saying "I predict there will be rain somewhere in the Portland Oregon area at some point in the next 10 years". Would you assume I was inspired by the holy spirit to make a prophecy, and that it was evidence of my supernautral abilities.... if it rained in Portland?

Get real!

Jihad literally means "holy war", and God knew it. So is Islam wrong then? is it a fake God? I think that Islam supports Christianity for the reason i gave.. Islam support our belief about God.. It also goes really deep in theology as well, How the Arabs are also sons of Abraham, because Abraham is the father of Ishmael... I think this stuff is right in line with Biblical teachings...

What about the part of the Koran that says that anybody who accept's Jesus's divinity will burn in hell for eternity? Is that in line with the Bible?

How do you know they're wrong about that?

Even the atheist is right in line with Gods plan... Because God told us all about you guys, you guys illustrate truth in scripture.. God told us you will reject the Cornerstone of the faith. God told us that you will proclaim that you are intelligent for just that.. God told us that you will see the message as foolishness...

So, if everybody believed in Christianity, it would be evidence that Christianity is the truth, if most people don't believe in Christianity, that is evidence that Christianity is the truth. Really? You can say that with a straight face?

You know, I had a very vivid dream once, in which a flying unicorn appeared to me and told me he was the one and only true creator of the universe and arbiter of objective morality. He told me that people disbelieving that I was his prophet would constitute evidence that he was real. He specifically told me that someone on this forum would make an outrageous totology about disbelief in Christianity being evidence of Christianity. How could the flying unicorn know in advance? It must be because it's true that he is the omnipotent creator of the universe.

You yourself shows truth to Gods Word, and you don't even believe in God..

You yourself show truth to the Flying Unicorn's Word, and you don't even believe in the Flying Unicorn

It is not a question of if other religions contradict Christianity, because they don't, and neither do atheists at that matter... Because God knows all.

It is not a question of if other religions contradict the Flying Unicorn, because they don't, and neither do atheists at that matter... Because the Flying Unicorn knows all

[DefenderofTruth]

[Replying to post 4 by atheist buddy]

the fact that there are more religions out there does not say anything about any of them individually... For instance, we have many theories of how life began on this planet... Wether it is by a step by step natural process with RNA, directed panspermia, or a bolt of lightning jump starting life... These are competing theories of how life started, it does not mean they are all wrong...

Right. We don't know which one of the several theories for abiogenesis is true. therefore.... WE DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF THEM, and instead continue exploring the subject and try to look for empirical evidence which will show which one is the true one.

Ya that is absurd isn't it? So why do you do this with God?

I don't see why that is any different then the subject of God...

I agree. Just like we don't believe in either abiogenesis hypothesis because there isn't enough evidence for any of them, we shouldnt believe in any God hypothesis because there isn't enough evidence for any of them.

well obviously i disagree with you that there is no evidence.. Actually I think you reject scripture before you look to any evidence at all.. Im curios, you ever read the greek manuscripts of the New Testament to study to seek the understanding of its words?

Can you prove to me that you don't irrationally throw away the scriptures before you even knew em?

In fact, for many God hypotheses there is overwhelming evidence AGAINST them. Like for example the "God got a virgin pregnant magically" hypothesis.

Unfortunately thats not evidence against them at all, in fact that is evidence for them. The recognition that an event like that could only be explained by a miracle, that is understood by both you and I. Now if it is evidence against the scripture you would have to provide a valid reason why, You can't just reject it for no reason, and by you showing us you don't believe in miracles that is not evidence against scripture. Besides, there are a lot more profound prophetic truths then the virgin birth, which is why id recommend you search understandings of words in the Bible. Why make nonsense of its words? It actually does have a message in it whether you believe or not. Belief is independent of truth, it doesn't matter if you don't believe.. But why not just see what it says then fighting against it?

All any kind of knowledge, any kind of knowledge would ever want from you, would be to seek understanding it.

Why not seek understanding instead of objecting it to the nonsense you make it?

Actually, as a Christian, i am inclined to say that the other religions are another piece of the puzzle. That other religions play a role in Gods plan. For instance, as Christians, we believe that there will be war in the world, or even more precisely there will be war in the middle east.. This is a prophecy in Christianity, it is prophetic. And we see evidence of this with Jihad..

Are you serious? There is war in the world, and you thank that people who point out "There is war in the world" therefore must have some kind of prophetic super-power?
There isn't war and violence only in the middle east! There is, always has been, and always will be war EVERYWHERE. Civil wars in the US, coups and counter coups in south america, genocide in Europe, ethnic clensing in Darfur, the Japanese invading China, war in Korea, war in Russia, child-armies in Somalia, genocide in Australia, etc etc etc.

Scripture never claimed it is only in the Middle East, in fact scripture acknowledges that war is in all the world. It acknowledges the earth is full of sin. So... You don't think its kind of irrational to reject it, or more so not seek to understand it? You don't need to make nonsense of the Bible, it does have a message in it.

It's like saying "I predict there will be rain somewhere in the Portland Oregon area at some point in the next 10 years". Would you assume I was inspired by the holy spirit to make a prophecy, and that it was evidence of my supernautral abilities.... if it rained in Portland?

And notice that does not make the prophecy false, does it? When you dont believing it is "specific enough" is not evidence against it, is it?.. And beside there are many more profound prophetic writings in it then just this.

Jihad literally means "holy war", and God knew it. So is Islam wrong then? is it a fake God? I think that Islam supports Christianity for the reason i gave.. Islam support our belief about God.. It also goes really deep in theology as well, How the Arabs are also sons of Abraham, because Abraham is the father of Ishmael... I think this stuff is right in line with Biblical teachings...

What about the part of the Koran that says that anybody who accept's Jesus's divinity will burn in hell for eternity? Is that in line with the Bible?

How do you know they're wrong about that?

LOL, except you know what? the Quran does not say that, in the slightest sense, right? Have you ever read the Quran? ? Or can i assume you are pulling that "part" of the Quran out of your butt?

Even the atheist is right in line with Gods plan... Because God told us all about you guys, you guys illustrate truth in scripture.. God told us you will reject the Cornerstone of the faith. God told us that you will proclaim that you are intelligent for just that.. God told us that you will see the message as foolishness...

So, if everybody believed in Christianity, it would be evidence that Christianity is the truth, if most people don't believe in Christianity, that is evidence that Christianity is the truth. Really? You can say that with a straight face?

"if everybody believed in Christianity, it would be evidence that Christianity is the truth" actually no, that would be evidence that Christianity is not true. Because it acknowledges that people will not believe in it.

You know, I had a very vivid dream once, in which a flying unicorn appeared to me and told me he was the one and only true creator of the universe and arbiter of objective morality. He told me that people disbelieving that I was his prophet would constitute evidence that he was real. He specifically told me that someone on this forum would make an outrageous totology about disbelief in Christianity being evidence of Christianity. How could the flying unicorn know in advance? It must be because it's true that he is the omnipotent creator of the universe.

Ok lets actually talk about reality shall we? You don't need to make up lies to prove an invalid point.

Besides, you compare something you pulled out of thin air as the same as christianity? You don't think thats kind of irrational?

[1213]

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

I think lack of evidence is not good reason to reject God, if Gods will is good and he has good teaching. Personally I dont reject other gods because of lack of evidence.

As Paul says in the Bible:

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6

I think it is possible that other gods exist or have existed. I have no problem with that. I just wouldnt keep anyone else as my God than the Bible God, even if those would really exist. For me the existence of other gods is irrelevant.

For example some may keep some tree as their god. I have no reason to say that it doesnt exist. I just wouldnt keep it as my God.

Also I think we have evidence for God, Bible for example (in my opinion Bible tells the truth and is therefore special and good).

[Zzyzx]

.

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

I think lack of evidence is not good reason to reject God,

What you think is immaterial in debate. Is there good reason to accept tales about god(s) in the absence of evidence? If so what reason(s)?

if Gods will is good and he has good teaching.

The key term is IF. No one seems to know about gods except what they hear or read from others purporting to know about gods " and those who give testimonials about their personal "revelations" in dreams or visions or whatever.

Personally I dont reject other gods because of lack of evidence.

Do you accept other gods? Is that polytheism?

As Paul says in the Bible:

Paul/Saul tells many tales in his bible writings, including having "visions" (or hallucinations or delusions or whatever). Is there any sound reason to accept his tales as truthful or more truthful than those written about competing gods? If so, what might that be (beyond a desire to believe)?

I think it is possible that other gods exist or have existed. I have no problem with that. I just wouldnt keep anyone else as my God than the Bible God, even if those would really exist. For me the existence of other gods is irrelevant.

On what basis do you (generic term) select the Bible God in preference over the thousands of other proposed gods?

For example some may keep some tree as their god. I have no reason to say that it doesnt exist. I just wouldnt keep it as my God.

Agreed. People get to choose which god(s) to worship. Most choose those which are popular in their culture and which are promoted / advertised most prominently. Social pressure to conform by family, friends, preachers, society is a powerful influence, particularly when people are young, vulnerable or in difficult circumstances.

Also I think we have evidence for God, Bible for example (in my opinion Bible tells the truth and is therefore special and good).

The Bible is evidence that ancient writers (whoever they may have been) told stories about their favorite god(s). There is no assurance they were rational, truthful and/or accurate. Many people (ancient and modern) tell tales about various "gods" that may exist only in their mind.

What makes you (generic term) think that the Bible tells the truth when it is shown to contain errors, unclear meanings, inconsistencies and/or contradictions?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Mr. Z....but I think of you more as Mr. A+ (haha).

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Also, this evidence that you refer to, what exactly are you looking for? I mean, what is compelling evidence? God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard. He does give us evidence that He is God, that He created this earth and everything in it, but people credit it to other things, things that seem more believable from a human perspective.

[Zzyzx]

.

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Mr. Z....but I think of you more as Mr. A+ (haha).

PN, you are one of the rare Theists who do not take offense when I challenge claims and stories. More typical (well maybe a bit extreme) is something along the lines of http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 003#718003

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

Also, this evidence that you refer to, what exactly are you looking for? I mean, what is compelling evidence?

I do not pretend to know what evidence a person could or should present to substantiate their claims and stories.

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard.

As best I can tell, NONE of the gods DO anything (except in people's testimonials " that cannot be checked for truth and accuracy).

He does give us evidence that He is God, that He created this earth and everything in it,

Okay, what evidence has God given to indicate that "he" created the Earth?

There are human-told stories making that claim (perhaps for several different gods among the pantheon of thousands proposed).

but people credit it to other things,

Those who study the Earth, the solar system, and the universe have some THEORIES about how the Earth (and other planets) formed. Some who do not study such things often defend ideas that were popular thousands of years ago. My position regarding origins is simply, "I don't know. There isn't sufficient information available for me to make a reasoned decision."

things that seem more believable from a human perspective.

Our ONLY perspective is human. Alien life forms (perhaps including gods) might have a different perspective. If so, how would we KNOW about their perspectives?

[1213]

What you think is immaterial in debate. Is there good reason to accept tales about god(s) in the absence of evidence? If so what reason(s)?

Do you write imaginary stories about gods? I dont, and I dont think you do so. If we dont do so, why should we assume that other people do so?

I think it can be true that people have experienced something that makes them believe to god that they speak of. It is possible that it is illusion or false thing, but I dont think we have enough reason to assume that those are developed purely as lies.

Because I usually have no means to check does the god really exist, I evaluate it by the message. The message is more important to me than the existence of alleged god. If the message is not truthful or good, then I will reject it and I also reject that god.

Even if Bible God would not exist, I would keep him as my God (= the highest authority), because I think the message is good and I want to live according to Bible Gods will.

Do you accept other gods? Is that polytheism?

I accept that they may or may have existed. I wouldnt keep them as my God and so for me there is only one true God, person who I keep the most high.

Paul/Saul tells many tales in his bible writings, including having "visions" (or hallucinations or delusions or whatever). Is there any sound reason to accept his tales as truthful or more truthful than those written about competing gods? If so, what might that be (beyond a desire to believe)?

Good reason to accept them is that they are good, wise and truthful about humans.

On what basis do you (generic term) select the Bible God in preference over the thousands of other proposed gods?

Bible God tells the truth about humans. He gives right understanding of this world. He has righteous teaching and actually things happen as told in the Bible. For example Jews were scattered and now gathered back as the Bible tells. He has good message and his words are true. Other Gods dont have much to say and are actually quite meaningless.

What makes you (generic term) think that the Bible tells the truth when it is shown to contain errors, unclear meanings, inconsistencies and/or contradictions?

What you think is immaterial in debate. Is there good reason to accept your claim that Bible contains errors and contradictions? I have not seen any errors or contradictions in the Bible.