Pascal's Wager again

[Zzyzx]

.
In one of the threads a member indicated that philosophical arguments, including Pascal's Wager, rule out the possibility of God not existing.

Blaise Pascal actually wrote (but did not publish) "If you gain, you gain all. If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then, without hesitation, that He exists."

He did NOT use this as an argument that God exists. Instead, his argument is that whether God exists or not one should "bet" on existence. Betting is not argument for existence – but a gamble on what is (admittedly to Pascal) unknown.

I maintain that his proposal is faulty even in that:

1) The wager assumes a singular god (to bet on or against) when thousands of gods have been proposed, some of whom are said to require exclusive right to be worshiped and condemn worshipers of competing gods. Thus, it cannot be determined which of the proposed gods to worship. In other words, first pick one of the gods (with less than 1/10 percent chance of being right), then decide whether to bet for or against. Or, repeat this thousands of times . . .

2) There is no assurance that any god requires belief (or betting) by humans – and could require exactly the opposite – (disapproval of gullibility or naivete). Who knows such thing beyond speculation and opinion (ancient or modern)?

3) "Lose nothing" is incorrect unless ALL that is required by the god is betting / wagering that it exists (without "putting up" or "anteing" anything at all). In fact, however, some (at least) of the gods are said to require "true belief" (much more than just a bet) and most religions add all sorts of conditions to be followed by worshipers.


The argument may sound compelling in church when assumptions are made about which god to believe exists and what the god requires of believers.

Question for debate: Is the argument compelling or convincing in debate?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 45 by arian]

I will admit, there were things about church and the people that were great and some of my fondest memories have been at church activities. However for me now if I were to look at going back into it, I feel I would be giving up a lot of time and effort and re-embracing something that was psychologically harmful to me.

Well yes, I guess some Christian cults do put a lot of psychological stress on their members

I was not part of any cults. Just mainstream Christian churches and the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil etc etc.

But didn't you at least try to find out a few things during or after you left? You know, like if what they taught was really what Jesus taught?

I am wondering why you presume I was ever part of cults. I never was. I was in churches that taught the bible. I will admit that I never really learnt to think for myself until my late 20s (another negative affect of a culture where you aren't supposed to challenge or question the bible). Then I started to look at things that were said in the pulpit and by other Christians and line them up with scripture. The bible was ALWAYS my benchmark.

So yes, I was always studying what Jesus taught, even from an early age. Of course what he teaches is very much open to debate as surely you know yourself. Everybody has their take on it. Everyone has their opinion. That's why bible study and discussion groups are so popular in churches.

Like after I left for some time, like years, and went back you know to visit friends and relatives, I right away noticed many things that I never seen as a member, especially how we used to act in church and how we acted outside of it.
Like that we don't have TV's but 'them other churches do', .. yet we snuck out to watch movies, or how some holy-members would 'build-in' their TV's into the wall behind a locked cabinet and pull it out to watch. This and a hundred other even more hypocritical things became obvious to me, so yea, .. going back would not be on my list, and I made sure they knew that.

I saw all that stuff while I was a Christian. One thing for sure is that just because you have "Jesus in your life" does not mean you're gonna be any more moral or righteous than anyone else. To do what's right you need to be willing to do that yourself and put in the effort. No God is going to help you.

One thing that became very evident to me after I lost my faith and I see it all the time when I occasionally go to church is just how deluded believers are. The lack of logic and the silly fantasies that are preached from the pulpit. The emotional appeals over that of the intellectual. The people desperately trying to conjure up god in everything they do when it's quite clear he's just not there. I can see it even more that they have nothing special about them. They are just like everybody else including atheists, its just that they have irrational religious beliefs. None of those beliefs seem to bring them joy or make them any more moral. I can see that quite clearly when I look at Christians now.

I feel I am so much better off in my life now without the yoke of Christianity and can't see how Pascal's Wager is in any way an appealing argument, not only to me but anyone who is not already a Christian.

Ah, .. but you haven't tasted of the fruit in knowing and walking in the truth,

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. You're claiming that because I'm an ex-Christian that I can't have been a true Christian in the first place. Don't even go there because as far as I'm concerned that's complete and utter nonsense. If I was never a true Christian then it's obvious to me there is no such thing and it's all clearly just a big fantasy.

I don't know my friend...

You're right about that, you don't. You know nothing about my life as a Christian or how dedicated I was an how sincere I was, so you are in no position to judge me, claim that I was in cults, or that I never tried to seek Jesus and learn what he taught. So please don't even go there because I find that highly insulting and arrogant. All you are going to achieve is alienating yourself and have me know without a doubt that you are not a true Christian yourself and that you are certainly not hearing from any God. I cannot possibly take anyone seriously who claims that I was never a true Christian. To just flag away over 30 years of genuine and sincere belief shows me extreme audacity and lack of understanding.

[arian]

[Replying to post 45 by arian]

I will admit, there were things about church and the people that were great and some of my fondest memories have been at church activities. However for me now if I were to look at going back into it, I feel I would be giving up a lot of time and effort and re-embracing something that was psychologically harmful to me.

Well yes, I guess some Christian cults do put a lot of psychological stress on their members

I was not part of any cults. Just mainstream Christian churches and the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil etc etc.

Please OnceConvinced do not take what I say personally, besides, why should it matter to you if I said you may have been a part of a Christian Religion cult? I admit my Apostolic Christian Church of America/Nazarene were and are a cult.

Cult - Wikipedia
In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, thus making a precise definition problematic.

I like this definition because it's a non-religious definition.
It is very hard to define a Religious cult, but I can tell you this, that if Jesus was here today, and preached the exact same thing He preached and taught 2,000 years ago, established a church filled with those who agreed and followed Him, every, .. that's right, .. EVERY single Christian Religion and Denomination (that I have come across) would label them a 'cult'.

You said: "the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil" had a psychological negative impact on you? So it wasn't the Church, but what is recorded in the Bible that made you feel you wasted all them years?
Did you, or anyone in your church discourage bearing arms for your country or kill anyone in self defense (turn the other cheek)?

evil nature of man:
Romans 7:18
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Jesus said: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Genesis 8:21
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So when you were a Christian, you couldn't associate with what was said here? After all them years as a Christian, you found those (and other verses) a burden?? Funny, because those are actually words of relief for anyone hoping to escape from sin. This is why I feel that you belonged to some Christian cult, because most of Christianity understands our sinful nature vs. Gods holiness, and the battle we are having trying to live a life of righteousness (you know, as good people, because some people take a life of righteousness to unreachable levels, and delude themselves as having achieved it by some particular deeds)


Other definitions:
WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions
There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

You see, the 'religious Christian definition' would have Jesus and His followers labeled as a cult too, because Jesus NEVER taught any plural gods, or that he was some sun-god, part of some trinity.

This is what I am hoping to get across to people, that we MUST establish who is this God of the Bible, and who His Son Word is before we can understand what the true meaning of 'cult' means. The Religious cults have a very different definition of 'cult', as you can see above.

But didn't you at least try to find out a few things during or after you left? You know, like if what they taught was really what Jesus taught?

I am wondering why you presume I was ever part of cults. I never was. I was in churches that taught the bible. I will admit that I never really learnt to think for myself until my late 20s (another negative affect of a culture where you aren't supposed to challenge or question the bible).

Again, .. please don't jump back to our old indoctrinated mindset and defend them, but listen what I'm 'showing you'. Look, .. if we spend even ONE year in some school where they didn't teach us to think for ourselves, and when our family members notice that this school our child is attending doesn't really teach independence (like 1st grade they taught us basic adding and subtracting, so when we went out on the school yard we could use it, like "this big marble is worth 3 small marbles" so we could count, 1, 2, 3 marbles, cool, here is my big marble for trade., .. like that) especially when the school discourages questioning their teaching methods! I mean right?

But here we were, billions of Christians sitting in these unquestionable churches just taking what they give us, .. year after year. I tell you brother, they were cults, .. not 'their definition of cult' obviously, but the true definition!?

Then I started to look at things that were said in the pulpit and by other Christians and line them up with scripture. The bible was ALWAYS my benchmark.

So yes, I was always studying what Jesus taught, even from an early age. Of course what he teaches is very much open to debate as surely you know yourself. Everybody has their take on it. Everyone has their opinion. That's why bible study and discussion groups are so popular in churches.

Yes I understand what you are saying, .. but look, there was always a Bible Study leader right? Should the study group wonder into questioning Denominational doctrine, like the Trinity doctrine for instance, the Bible study leader will immediately step in and put the topic back on the 'Trinity-track'. I noticed that many years later as I was 'church-hunting' especially those churches that claimed to be 'Bible based', or that they strictly went by what the Bible taught, .. YEAH RIGHT! It was more like: What they said the Bible taught!
I had so many evil eyes staring at me when I challenged 'from the Bible' their doctrinal views, it was impossible to continue attending. I had Bible study leaders rudely say front of the whole group; "Yeah, .. whatever Odon! Now let's get back to what I was saying!" Even though there were quite a few who would voice their disappointment at the Bible study Leader, that "You know, I believe Odon had some legitimate points there, you should have let him speak his mind! I for one would of like to hear what he was saying?" and so on.

They are cults, simple as that.

Like after I left for some time, like years, and went back you know to visit friends and relatives, I right away noticed many things that I never seen as a member, especially how we used to act in church and how we acted outside of it.
Like that we don't have TV's but 'them other churches do', .. yet we snuck out to watch movies, or how some holy-members would 'build-in' their TV's into the wall behind a locked cabinet and pull it out to watch. This and a hundred other even more hypocritical things became obvious to me, so yea, .. going back would not be on my list, and I made sure they knew that.

I saw all that stuff while I was a Christian. One thing for sure is that just because you have "Jesus in your life" does not mean you're gonna be any more moral or righteous than anyone else. To do what's right you need to be willing to do that yourself and put in the effort. No God is going to help you.

Yes Exactly, we may never be perfect, BUT .. what Jesus and the NT Apostles taught us is to face up to our problems, faults and weaknesses and pray about it, share it with others in our group, not hide it behind a cabinet or in a closet.

or if you see a brother sin against you, or God, we are not to just close our eyes to it, but step up and show we care for their soul salvation;

Matthew 18:15
(Dealing with a Sinning Brother) “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

One thing that became very evident to me after I lost my faith and I see it all the time when I occasionally go to church is just how deluded believers are. The lack of logic and the silly fantasies that are preached from the pulpit. The emotional appeals over that of the intellectual. The people desperately trying to conjure up god in everything they do when it's quite clear he's just not there. I can see it even more that they have nothing special about them. They are just like everybody else including atheists, its just that they have irrational religious beliefs. None of those beliefs seem to bring them joy or make them any more moral. I can see that quite clearly when I look at Christians now.

Yes, well some people go to Lady-Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Metallica concerts and raise their hand in worship of some Deity, and some go to Church to do the same thing, and you can see the emotional appeals over that of the intellectual flow in both places. And yes, God is not in either place.

I myself seek the Lord, the One true God possible, and do my best in worshiping Him. Funny, you know, .. neither place would allow the One True God in. I guess the worship of Deities is what is preferred today, and they hype themselves up in both places for the duration, and once they get home, and back to work Monday, everything goes back to normal, .. I agree.

I feel I am so much better off in my life now without the yoke of Christianity and can't see how Pascal's Wager is in any way an appealing argument, not only to me but anyone who is not already a Christian.

Ah, .. but you haven't tasted of the fruit in knowing and walking in the truth,

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. You're claiming that because I'm an ex-Christian that I can't have been a true Christian in the first place. Don't even go there because as far as I'm concerned that's complete and utter nonsense. If I was never a true Christian then it's obvious to me there is no such thing and it's all clearly just a big fantasy.

Not because you are an ex-Christian, but because you were a Christian of the Christian Religion who worship Deities. True Believers who follow Jesus Christ don't bow to no plural or singular Deity that they admit reside in the supernatural realm. That would be an abomination before our Bible God, the one who we can know in science.

But, I guess we been through this before, who cares if our Creator is a Spirit/Mind and not some demon, right? I'm just saying that in the Bible, God is Spirit, One not plural or many. He beget a Son, not some sun-god deity.

Oh well, .. who cares besides me right?

I don't know my friend...

You're right about that, you don't. You know nothing about my life as a Christian or how dedicated I was an how sincere I was, so you are in no position to judge me, claim that I was in cults, or that I never tried to seek Jesus and learn what he taught.

I never once questioned your sincerity in being a member of the Christian Religion.
I never judged you, I simply pointed out the facts. Now whether or not you take a closer look at those facts, that will be on you, and God will judge you as He will me according to the work we put into knowing Him!

So please don't even go there because I find that highly insulting and arrogant. All you are going to achieve is alienating yourself and have me know without a doubt that you are not a true Christian yourself and that you are certainly not hearing from any God.

You are correct, .. I am NOT of the Christian Religion who worship Deities. It is because of my rejection of the plural Deity triune gods that I am alienating myself, and I know that. Jesus warned us about that; The World will hate you for righteousness sake, .. the world loves their own (who worship the same deities, whether in church or at Lady Gaga concerts.)

I cannot possibly take anyone seriously who claims that I was never a true Christian. To just flag away over 30 years of genuine and sincere belief shows me extreme audacity and lack of understanding.

If an Arab friend of mine here in the States was to tell me that his son joined the Muslim Palestinian army and blew himself up killing a bus load of Jewish school children in the name of the One True God, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him: "That was NOT the One True God in whose name your son blew himself up for!"

But I would never say that his son didn't have genuine and sincere belief in his god.

I am NOT in any way, shape or form denying your sincerity of the 30 year service in the Christian Religion.

I Love you my friend, .. sincerely, believe it or not.

God bless us both.

[OnceConvinced]

Please OnceConvinced do not take what I say personally, besides, why should it matter to you if I said you may have been a part of a Christian Religion cult? I admit my Apostolic Christian Church of America/Nazarene were and are a cult.

As you continued to read my previous post you will have seen why I take offence. But if you want here is a link to my website with a brief explanation of why I find it insulting:

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... -dare-you/

You said: "the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil" had a psychological negative impact on you? So it wasn't the Church, but what is recorded in the Bible that made you feel you wasted all them years?

A mixture of both.

Did you, or anyone in your church discourage bearing arms for your country or kill anyone in self defense (turn the other cheek)?

War is not really an issue in our country. I never heard any discouragement of joining the armed forces or anything like that. I don’t believe I have heard anyone saying not to kill in self-defence.

evil nature of man:
Romans 7:18
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Jesus said: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Genesis 8:21
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So when you were a Christian, you couldn't associate with what was said here? After all them years as a Christian, you found those (and other verses) a burden??

I never saw them as a burden, no. I never once saw being a Christian as a burden. Not sure what your point is.

Funny, because those are actually words of relief for anyone hoping to escape from sin. This is why I feel that you belonged to some Christian cult, because most of Christianity understands our sinful nature vs. Gods holiness, and the battle we are having trying to live a life of righteousness (you know, as good people, because some people take a life of righteousness to unreachable levels, and delude themselves as having achieved it by some particular deeds)

What makes you think I didn’t understand our sinful nature vs God’s holiness?

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

Never belonged to any of those so-called churches.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

Never belonged to any of those churches either.

But didn't you at least try to find out a few things during or after you left? You know, like if what they taught was really what Jesus taught?

I am wondering why you presume I was ever part of cults. I never was. I was in churches that taught the bible. I will admit that I never really learnt to think for myself until my late 20s (another negative affect of a culture where you aren't supposed to challenge or question the bible).

Again, .. please don't jump back to our old indoctrinated mindset and defend them, but listen what I'm 'showing you'. Look, .. if we spend even ONE year in some school where they didn't teach us to think for ourselves, and when our family members notice that this school our child is attending doesn't really teach independence (like 1st grade they taught us basic adding and subtracting, so when we went out on the school yard we could use it, like "this big marble is worth 3 small marbles" so we could count, 1, 2, 3 marbles, cool, here is my big marble for trade., .. like that) especially when the school discourages questioning their teaching methods! I mean right?

But here we were, billions of Christians sitting in these unquestionable churches just taking what they give us, .. year after year. I tell you brother, they were cults, .. not 'their definition of cult' obviously, but the true definition!?

I began to question what was taught by churches. Also what is taught in the bible. That is what lead me to being an ex-Christian today.

Then I started to look at things that were said in the pulpit and by other Christians and line them up with scripture. The bible was ALWAYS my benchmark.

So yes, I was always studying what Jesus taught, even from an early age. Of course what he teaches is very much open to debate as surely you know yourself. Everybody has their take on it. Everyone has their opinion. That's why bible study and discussion groups are so popular in churches.

Yes I understand what you are saying, .. but look, there was always a Bible Study leader right?

No. I learnt to study the bible for myself. I learnt to interpret it for myself. In fact I was in positions of leadership so I was often the one who was the bible study leader. As a home group leader it was usually my job to come up with my own bible studies for the group.

You’re not talking to some novice Christian. I was given leadership responsibilities at the age of 16, going to Christian childrens camps as a leader. I then went on to teach Sunday school for a number of years, later even coming up with my own material for that too. Then I was moved into cell group leadership, (adult leadership) which I was involved in for quite some time along with my wife at the time. .

I feel I am so much better off in my life now without the yoke of Christianity and can't see how Pascal's Wager is in any way an appealing argument, not only to me but anyone who is not already a Christian.

Ah, .. but you haven't tasted of the fruit in knowing and walking in the truth,

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. You're claiming that because I'm an ex-Christian that I can't have been a true Christian in the first place. Don't even go there because as far as I'm concerned that's complete and utter nonsense. If I was never a true Christian then it's obvious to me there is no such thing and it's all clearly just a big fantasy.

Not because you are an ex-Christian, but because you were a Christian of the Christian Religion who worship Deities. True Believers who follow Jesus Christ don't bow to no plural or singular Deity that they admit reside in the supernatural realm. That would be an abomination before our Bible God, the one who we can know in science.

You seem to have some strong opinions on this.

I for one was never part of a religion. I had a relationship with God.

[arian]

Please OnceConvinced do not take what I say personally, besides, why should it matter to you if I said you may have been a part of a Christian Religion cult? I admit my Apostolic Christian Church of America/Nazarene were and are a cult.

As you continued to read my previous post you will have seen why I take offence. But if you want here is a link to my website with a brief explanation of why I find it insulting:

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... -dare-you/

I read your "How dare you" link, but those are not my piles of questions how you could have been a former Christian.
I believe we are debating that in the "definition of Christian" OP.

You said: "the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil" had a psychological negative impact on you? So it wasn't the Church, but what is recorded in the Bible that made you feel you wasted all them years?

A mixture of both.

After being a Christian for 30 years, when did the Bible start making you feel like you are wasting your time? Can you give me some verses, some teachings from the Bible that you followed for 30 years and realized they were a waste of time?

Did you, or anyone in your church discourage bearing arms for your country or kill anyone in self defense (turn the other cheek)?

War is not really an issue in our country. I never heard any discouragement of joining the armed forces or anything like that. I don’t believe I have heard anyone saying not to kill in self-defence.

Really? Jesus did, to His death.

Can you please show me from the NT Bible 'one verse' that would even remotely suggest for a Disciple of Christ to join any army and fight those that a worldly ruler (King, Queen, President, Communist leader etc) deem as enemy?
If you use the "Obey your rulers for they are appointed by God" includes Communist rulers who go out and fight against (especially against) Christian Countries. So if you are a Christian in a Communist Country, would you bear arms against fellow Christians in the enemy Christian Country?

We had World Wars where Christian went out and killed other Christians with the blessing from their same denominational Leaders/Elders/Pope/Priest, so are you sure you were a Christian as in Christ like, where Christ's teaching ruled over your life? Or just a member of some Christian Religion? I ask because you mention in that letter "How Dare you?":

OnceConvinced: I was a genuine bible believing Christian, who followed Jesus consistently for over 30 years of my life. I have been involved in ministries and leadership throughout most of it.

evil nature of man:
Romans 7:18
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Jesus said: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Genesis 8:21
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So when you were a Christian, you couldn't associate with what was said here? After all them years as a Christian, you found those (and other verses) a burden??

I never saw them as a burden, no. I never once saw being a Christian as a burden. Not sure what your point is.

You said the reason you left was two fold, the Church (obviously where you were a Christian) and the Bible. I am trying to find out the Bible part?

Funny, because those are actually words of relief for anyone hoping to escape from sin. This is why I feel that you belonged to some Christian cult, because most of Christianity understands our sinful nature vs. Gods holiness, and the battle we are having trying to live a life of righteousness (you know, as good people, because some people take a life of righteousness to unreachable levels, and delude themselves as having achieved it by some particular deeds)

What makes you think I didn’t understand our sinful nature vs God’s holiness?

Your stand against Christians and the Bible.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

Never belonged to any of those so-called churches.

I didn't think you were, this I copied as a Christians definition of 'cult'. What I was hoping that you notice is that the Christian that defined cult was not even a Christian, not according to the Bible anyways.
This is the thing I want to show you, that on deeper examination, the Christian church you were part of (from all the posts I read from you so far) was NOT Christian (Christ-like) by Bible definition (don't jump to any conclusion yet, hear me out first, please?) It was one of the 40,000 Religious denominations that all go under 'Christian', who worship a or plural (more than one) Deities (demons)

I began to question what was taught by churches. Also what is taught in the bible. That is what lead me to being an ex-Christian today.

Again, just from what I know about you so far, I ask you; are you sure that what the Bible taught was not tainted by the denominations doctrines you were brought up by, .. or been around and influenced by? That you didn't read into the Bible what you've been taught, instead of reading what it really says in there?
I say this because for all them years that I was reading in scripture, I was interpreting it from my denominational perspective. Once I realized this, an entire New Bible opened up to me.

I mean look, why would you question what was taught to you unless you smelled that something fishy was going on?
This is why I keep asking you to point out your Bible verses that you didn't agree with or could no longer tolerate, .. maybe you misunderstood it?
Show me those verses/chapters then tell me what you think it says, and I'll see if that's how I understand it? I mean who knows, .. maybe I missed something too? I'm always open for Bible interpretations, I learned so much already from different POV's!

Then I started to look at things that were said in the pulpit and by other Christians and line them up with scripture. The bible was ALWAYS my benchmark.

So yes, I was always studying what Jesus taught, even from an early age. Of course what he teaches is very much open to debate as surely you know yourself. Everybody has their take on it. Everyone has their opinion. That's why bible study and discussion groups are so popular in churches.

Yes I understand what you are saying, .. but look, there was always a Bible Study leader right?

No. I learnt to study the bible for myself. I learnt to interpret it for myself. In fact I was in positions of leadership so I was often the one who was the bible study leader. As a home group leader it was usually my job to come up with my own bible studies for the group.

Wait, so this was YOUR Church? No denominational leadership?
Wait, now I just read below that you were "given leadership responsibilities"

You’re not talking to some novice Christian. I was given leadership responsibilities at the age of 16, going to Christian childrens camps as a leader. I then went on to teach Sunday school for a number of years, later even coming up with my own material for that too. Then I was moved into cell group leadership, (adult leadership) which I was involved in for quite some time along with my wife at the time. .

Please forgive me if I sounded like you were weak or unwise, unjust in any ways in your Christian walk, .. You may have been the best and wisest, kindest denominational teacher around.

I feel I am so much better off in my life now without the yoke of Christianity and can't see how Pascal's Wager is in any way an appealing argument, not only to me but anyone who is not already a Christian.

Ah, .. but you haven't tasted of the fruit in knowing and walking in the truth,

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. You're claiming that because I'm an ex-Christian that I can't have been a true Christian in the first place. Don't even go there because as far as I'm concerned that's complete and utter nonsense. If I was never a true Christian then it's obvious to me there is no such thing and it's all clearly just a big fantasy.

Not because you are an ex-Christian, but because you were a Christian of the Christian Religion who worship Deities. True Believers who follow Jesus Christ don't bow to no plural or singular Deity that they admit reside in the supernatural realm. That would be an abomination before our Bible God, the one who we can know in science.

You seem to have some strong opinions on this.

I for one was never part of a religion. I had a relationship with God.

That's my point an this is what I want you to ask yourself, "which God/gods" did you have a relationship with?
Was he a Deity? Did this Deity have a son who was also a god called Jesus Christ?

Recker's World of Fantasy you wrote:

And let’s be realistic here. Do you really think that a person who had spent 20-30 years believing himself to be a Christian when really he wasn’t, would even consider going back to a system that had failed him so drastically? Especially with people who look down their noses at them and see them as somehow inferior? (which is what you are doing when you say “you were not a true Christian�)

My friend, you may have been far more a real Christian then this system (whatever Christian Religious denomination you belonged to) ever was!

But here, you judge for yourself if you were a real Christ-like Desciple or not, who cares what others say? You know the Scriptures, the Bible clearly defines what being Christ-like (Christian) is;
"They will hate you for my name sake"
.. "Turn the other cheek"
.. "if someone takes your coat, give him your shirt also!"
.. "do you go to court with fellow Believers, and that before un-believers?"
.. "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you!"
etc.

I was excommunicated because I refused to be a "real Christian", but in whose eyes?

That's right, in the eyes of my Christian Religious Denomination.
My views and understanding of the Bible were becoming anti-denominational and should I stay (they told me), would surely cause another denominational split! I guess they felt that 40,000 was enough, instead of searching out if the one they were in would even be considered "Christian" according to the Bible?

Oh yea, .. no one is perfect, so go on and steal, lie, cheat, live it up in the world from Monday through Saturday, and then on Sunday, back to being a Christian.

On Reckers World: If someone can go for so long, deceived and have church leaders believing they are a true Christian and no one telling them otherwise, then something seriously doesn’t add up when it comes claims made by Christians AND the bible.

It is Christ's teaching through the Bible that defines who is a True Christian, not a religious organization!? It is also This same Bible that defines who make up Christ's Church. Anyone could rent space and put the sign up: "Christian Church" and start teaching/preaching, and I've seen this with the small Calvary Chapel groups going up.

Take care OnceConvinced, and may God bless you, .. not that Deity either, or the three-in-one demigods, .. or the Plural deity Legion, .. but God our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" in whose image you and I were created in, through His Son Word, who was awesome enough to come down and die for us to save us.

Don't let them 30 years go to waste, bring it with you into Gods Holy Church, not many members here on earth I admit, but there are millions up in Heaven waiting for us, and cash those 30 years in, the reward is eternal.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

My take on the "You never were a true Christian" thing is this: for many Christians, they don't just believe in their religion; they "know". Of course they don't really know but like to think they do.

In any case, full and certain conviction is part of what makes a Christian a Christian in their eyes, so the only explanation for someone who does quit Christianity is that they never met that standard. They have no choice but to convince themselves you were never a "true" Christian because if you were, then it creates a contradiction in their world view. It's terrifying for them, because it gives them cause to doubt. Their psychological reaction is to aggressively deny your sincerity.

It's honestly too sad to be worth getting angry over, in my opinion. But that's easy for me to say, having never been a believer myself.

I am curious, though: did you ever play the "True Christian" card back in your believer days?

[Korah]

arian, you're not for the faint of heart.
Two hours after apparently deciding "once convinced" was never a Christian, on a different thread you address him as "almost persuaded", I guess, to your beliefs. Not that this makes any difference on whether you should be banned, but at least I wanted to clarify that you changed your mind on whether "once convinced" was worth taking seriously.

So when you were a Christian, you couldn't associate with what was said here? After all them years as a Christian, you found those (and other verses) a burden??

You said the reason you left was two fold, the Church (obviously where you were a Christian) and the Bible. I am trying to find out the Bible part?

My friend, you may have been far more a real Christian then this system (whatever Christian Religious denomination you belonged to) ever was!

But here, you judge for yourself if you were a real Christ-like Desciple or not, who cares what others say? You know the Scriptures, the Bible clearly defines what being Christ-like (Christian) is;
I was excommunicated because I refused to be a "real Christian", but in whose eyes?

That's right, in the eyes of my Christian Religious Denomination.
My views and understanding of the Bible were becoming anti-denominational and should I stay (they told me), would surely cause another denominational split! I guess they felt that 40,000 was enough, instead of searching out if the one they were in would even be considered "Christian" according to the Bible?

Oh yea, .. no one is perfect, so go on and steal, lie, cheat, live it up in the world from Monday through Saturday, and then on Sunday, back to being a Christian.

On Reckers World: If someone can go for so long, deceived and have church leaders believing they are a true Christian and no one telling them otherwise, then something seriously doesn’t add up when it comes claims made by Christians AND the bible.

It is Christ's teaching through the Bible that defines who is a True Christian, not a religious organization!? It is also This same Bible that defines who make up Christ's Church. Anyone could rent space and put the sign up: "Christian Church" and start teaching/preaching, and I've seen this with the small Calvary Chapel groups going up.
Take care OnceConvinced, and may God bless you, .. not that Deity either, or the three-in-one demigods, .. or the Plural deity Legion, .. but God our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" in whose image you and I were created in, through His Son Word, who was awesome enough to come down and die for us to save us.

Don't let them 30 years go to waste, bring it with you into Gods Holy Church, not many members here on earth I admit, but there are millions up in Heaven waiting for us, and cash those 30 years in, the reward is eternal.

[OnceConvinced]

You said: "the psychological issues were a result of the bible. For instance being taught to turn the other cheek, bless your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human nature and natural urges are sinful and evil" had a psychological negative impact on you? So it wasn't the Church, but what is recorded in the Bible that made you feel you wasted all them years?

A mixture of both.

After being a Christian for 30 years, when did the Bible start making you feel like you are wasting your time? Can you give me some verses, some teachings from the Bible that you followed for 30 years and realized they were a waste of time?

I can PM you my story if you like and you can see how I made the transition from believer to no believer. There's way more to it than just a few scriptures from the bible. If I started to post scriptures here we'd just end up in a big debate over the meaning of them and we might find ourselves in the position where you're claiming I am seeing them wrong. It would be my take on it vs yours and it would take this thread even further off course.

Did you, or anyone in your church discourage bearing arms for your country or kill anyone in self defense (turn the other cheek)?

War is not really an issue in our country. I never heard any discouragement of joining the armed forces or anything like that. I don’t believe I have heard anyone saying not to kill in self-defence.

Really? Jesus did, to His death.

I thought we were talking about people here in the real world, not people from unverified tales from an old book.

Actually, you have made an error in understanding the bible here anyway. "Turning the other cheek" is about not taking revenge. It's not about killing in self-defence.

If someone is attempting to kill you it may be that killing them is the only way to defend yourself. If you are dead you can't very well turn the other cheek.

Can you please show me from the NT Bible 'one verse' that would even remotely suggest for a Disciple of Christ to join any army and fight those that a worldly ruler (King, Queen, President, Communist leader etc) deem as enemy?
If you use the "Obey your rulers for they are appointed by God" includes Communist rulers who go out and fight against (especially against) Christian Countries. So if you are a Christian in a Communist Country, would you bear arms against fellow Christians in the enemy Christian Country?

You just want to tear out the old testament and avoid all the times where God ordered people into battle, to kill even women and children? You can't just erase the OT and ignore all the commands by God there. The God of the bible is a god of killing and war, so no matter what Jesus may appear to be in your mind, he's still part of that same God.

We had World Wars where Christian went out and killed other Christians with the blessing from their same denominational Leaders/Elders/Pope/Priest, so are you sure you were a Christian as in Christ like, where Christ's teaching ruled over your life? Or just a member of some Christian Religion? I ask because you mention in that letter "How Dare you?":

As a Christian I was completely CONVINCED Christ was ruling over my life. If I was wrong then why would I ever waste any more time with it? Over 30 years of genuine belief and serving of God and I was never a true Christian? If that's the case then being a "True Christian" is something unobtainable. It's simply a fantasy.

I'm not really sure what your point is with this war stuff. I've never killed anyone.

You said the reason you left was two fold, the Church (obviously where you were a Christian) and the Bible. I am trying to find out the Bible part?

There were many reasons why I left. I mentioned psychological impacts of some bible teachings like turning the other cheek, blessing your enemies, that we are all sinners, that our human natures are inherently sinful and we are all worthy of death as some of those things. Those are all biblical. However psychological impacts of the bible are not the only reasons why I am no longer a Christian.

As with many Christians you seem to want to put me in a box and narrow my disbelief down to a few basic issues. There are many many issues. In fact I have a list of close to 100 reasons I can post right here on this thread as to why I am no longer a Christian if you'd like me to post them. You will see that I cannot possibly narrow everything down to a couple of things.

Funny, because those are actually words of relief for anyone hoping to escape from sin. This is why I feel that you belonged to some Christian cult, because most of Christianity understands our sinful nature vs. Gods holiness, and the battle we are having trying to live a life of righteousness (you know, as good people, because some people take a life of righteousness to unreachable levels, and delude themselves as having achieved it by some particular deeds)

What makes you think I didn’t understand our sinful nature vs God’s holiness?

Your stand against Christians and the Bible.

That doesn’t mean I don’t understand. It just means I disagree. Remember I was a Christian for over 30 years of my life. If I didn’t understand basic Christian concepts I wouldn’t have been one for so long. Neither would I have been put in positions of leadership. What I believe now and what I believed back then are different. You don’t go from understanding something to not understanding it.

Again, just from what I know about you so far, I ask you; are you sure that what the Bible taught was not tainted by the denominations doctrines you were brought up by, .. or been around and influenced by? That you didn't read into the Bible what you've been taught, instead of reading what it really says in there?
I say this because for all them years that I was reading in scripture, I was interpreting it from my denominational perspective. Once I realized this, an entire New Bible opened up to me.

I mean look, why would you question what was taught to you unless you smelled that something fishy was going on?
This is why I keep asking you to point out your Bible verses that you didn't agree with or could no longer tolerate, .. maybe you misunderstood it?
Show me those verses/chapters then tell me what you think it says, and I'll see if that's how I understand it? I mean who knows, .. maybe I missed something too? I'm always open for Bible interpretations, I learned so much already from different POV's!

I’ve already listed some basic bible teachings for you. I don’t think I need to give you verses for them do I?

Our lives and our experiences all affect the way we look at things. I’m sure when you read the bible your views are also affected by your experiences and also what you have been taught. I’m betting that when you look at the bible you have the mindset that God is perfect, sinless, all good, all loving and all knowing. Already your viewpoint is tainted when you read the bible. So no, I don’t believe anyone is going to be able to read and study the bible without something influencing them. However saying that I don’t see anywhere in my beliefs as a Christian that didn’t line up with the bible. However I do not feel inclined to go into pages and pages of what I used to believe just so you can try to claim I had it wrong and wasn't really a true Christian. Perhaps if you could prove to me you were indeed a spokesperson from God, maybe I would.

For me now I just look at the bible at face value. If what I can see is false I reject it. I don’t need anyone else to try to twist my arm. I read it as it says. For instance, John 3:16 says that those who believe in him shall not perish. That therefore quite clearly implies that those who don’t believe WILL perish. Also the word “Perish� is quite clearly being erased from existence. Therefore Hell cannot be considered eternal suffering. (I’m just bringing this up as an example of how I take something at face value. You won’t see me trying to change the meanings of words or referring to some other scripture elsewhere to try to twist it into something else).

No. I learnt to study the bible for myself.

But in study groups one would normally have a study leader. That is only natural.

I learnt to interpret it for myself.

So who determines what you’ve interpreted is correct. You? What if you are looking at it wrongly? Who straightens you out and points out you’re reading it wrongly?

Those who think they have all the answers themselves are often the ones who start the cults.

In fact I was in positions of leadership so I was often the one who was the bible study leader. As a home group leader it was usually my job to come up with my own bible studies for the group.

Wait, so this was YOUR Church? No denominational leadership?
Wait, now I just read below that you were "given leadership responsibilities"

No it wasn’t my own church. I was put in charge of a cell group by higher church leaders who trusted me. If I was teaching anything heretical other members of the cell group would soon have spoken up. In fact debate was encouraged. I wasn’t the preaching type. I preferred to get discussions going because I knew I was not infallible. I did not have any sense of self-importance thinking that I knew it all based on my own understanding.

The point is I had to come up with my own studies based on my own understanding of scripture. I did not have to use study guides as you seemed to think.

You’re not talking to some novice Christian. I was given leadership responsibilities at the age of 16, going to Christian childrens camps as a leader. I then went on to teach Sunday school for a number of years, later even coming up with my own material for that too. Then I was moved into cell group leadership, (adult leadership) which I was involved in for quite some time along with my wife at the time. .

Please forgive me if I sounded like you were weak or unwise, unjust in any ways in your Christian walk, .. You may have been the best and wisest, kindest denominational teacher around.

We are all fallible. I was too, but I did the best I could.

That's my point an this is what I want you to ask yourself, "which God/gods" did you have a relationship with?
Was he a Deity? Did this Deity have a son who was also a god called Jesus Christ?

I believed I was in a relationship with the one true God and that Jesus was part of him. I believed in the trinity, which is not so much multiple deities, but one with three different aspects to him.

But here, you judge for yourself if you were a real Christ-like Desciple or not, who cares what others say? You know the Scriptures, the Bible clearly defines what being Christ-like (Christian) is;
"They will hate you for my name sake"
.. "Turn the other cheek"
.. "if someone takes your coat, give him your shirt also!"
.. "do you go to court with fellow Believers, and that before un-believers?"
.. "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you!"
etc.

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on what a true Christian is and they bring up scriptures to back them up. As far as I can see I did those things, however it didn’t work out too well in some cases. Have you seen my stories about how I attempted to bless my enemies and how they backfired on me? I’ve mentioned them a few times on this site.

I was excommunicated because I refused to be a "real Christian", but in whose eyes?

So what makes you so sure you ARE a real Christian? What if you are misunderstanding the bible? What if you’re missing some very important fine print?

Oh yea, .. no one is perfect, so go on and steal, lie, cheat, live it up in the world from Monday through Saturday, and then on Sunday, back to being a Christian.

That sort of Christianity riled me up, but it seems to prevalent. I would have Christian friends being all pious at church but then acting like everyone else the rest of the week. I think this is pretty standard because being a Christian doesn’t mean you end up being more moral and righteous. It’s simply a belief system.

On Reckers World: If someone can go for so long, deceived and have church leaders believing they are a true Christian and no one telling them otherwise, then something seriously doesn’t add up when it comes claims made by Christians AND the bible.

It is Christ's teaching through the Bible that defines who is a True Christian, not a religious organization!? It is also This same Bible that defines who make up Christ's Church. Anyone could rent space and put the sign up: "Christian Church" and start teaching/preaching, and I've seen this with the small Calvary Chapel groups going up.

No two Christians seem to be able to agree on what a true Christian is. There is always debate. Until Christians in general can come to a general consensus on this, they’re wasting their time trying to insist they know what a true Christian truly is.

Don't let them 30 years go to waste, bring it with you into Gods Holy Church, not many members here on earth I admit, but there are millions up in Heaven waiting for us, and cash those 30 years in, the reward is eternal.

Well I have learnt a lot from those 30 years and hopefully the experience I have can help others break free from religious indoctrination too. Hopefully I can encourage them and support them. Hopefully I can use my experiences to educate and enlighten. That is what I am trying to do anyway. However if I went into churches trying to get people to wake up out of their delusions, I'd soon be ejected from the church.

[OnceConvinced]

It's honestly too sad to be worth getting angry over, in my opinion. But that's easy for me to say, having never been a believer myself.

Being indoctrinated from birth. Taking the bull by the horns at an early age. Completely believing. Giving up large amounts of time and money for it. Genuinely believing. More than 30 years. Then a long agonizing journey getting over the loss of my faith (around 5 years)

I think anyone would be offended. I know of many ex-Christians who do get offended for the same reasons. Christians just can't understand it. They would if they were in the same shoes. It seems many Christians are just unable to empathize.

I am curious, though: did you ever play the "True Christian" card back in your believer days?

I never told anyone they were never true Christians, but I certainly used to think it and even agreed with other Christians who claimed certain people weren't.

I think when it came to ex-Christians, I probably would have figured them for not being true Christians to begin with because I would just not have been able to fathom how they could possibly leave the faith if they really knew Jesus. But it's easy to say things like that when you've never been in their shoes. I would have tried to make a lot of excuses too, but I don't think I would have ever blatantly come out and judged them.

To be honest I had never had any Christian friends become ex-Christians while I was still in the faith. It wasn't until after I'd lost my faith when I started coming across old church friends (Thanks to the Internet and Facebook) who had also lost their faith.

I don't think anyone can really understand until they have lost their faith themselves. It was a long painful journey to go through, so when someone says "you weren't a true Christian" it's like a huge slap in the face.

[arian]

arian, you're not for the faint of heart.
Two hours after apparently deciding "once convinced" was never a Christian, on a different thread you address him as "almost persuaded", I guess, to your beliefs. Not that this makes any difference on whether you should be banned, but at least I wanted to clarify that you changed your mind on whether "once convinced" was worth taking seriously.

He explained that he was a Christian for 30 years.
He then left, lost faith in an organization that didn't support him, and he felt the reason was two fold; the church and the Bible.
I asked if he considered the possibility that maybe he was reading and understanding the Bible from a religious denominational perspective?
I presented the possibility that maybe the Denomination wasn't Christian according to Bible definition? So of course (like me) if you don't go along with them, they will label you a heretic, someone who was NEVER a Christian, .. and so on.
The early Catholic Church used to threaten their sheep with hell fires if they disagreed with their doctrine and who their god was, .. a Trinity of gods.

Anyways, we can all learn from these debates, and defining what 'Christian is?' is a good OP, but for now, I'd say; Take Pascal's wager, but please try to at least find the One True God, who (considering all the Power and creative ability that He has) should by all means be REAL, .. not the figment of Religious interpretation.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 69 by arian]
Yeah, good points.
You still sound like Greg Laurie, but the "good" Greg Laurie who does have his moments when I like what he has to say.
I hope you don't still think that I want to ban you. Yes, this is all great fun, but the Mods here are most serious chaps, old boy, there are lots of people here longer and with more posts than you that have gotten banned. You may be able to keep on preaching as you've been doing, but you'll have to keep changing your pace and even your mind so that they will keep finding you entertaining and not just another boring partisan.