Let's cut to the chase: did the resurrection happen?

Haven · Post by **Haven** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:36 pm

Recently, there have been a lot of threads on topics related to the resurrection of Jesus (empty tomb, supernaturalism vs. naturalism, historical records, and so on). I think it may be helpful to discuss the big picture: did the resurrection of Jesus happen or not? This thread is the place to discuss it: offer any argument for or against the resurrection. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.

Debate question: Was Jesus resurrected from the dead?

_________
Thread rules:
1) Offer evidence or logical argument. Simply providing Bible quotes isn't sufficient.
2) Faith, while valid on a personal level, isn't evidence for a claim. Provide empirical evidence from history, textual criticism, physics, and so on, not simply statements of faith.
3) Be kind to each other. All of us, regardless of our religious position, are conscious beings deserving of respect and civility.

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:54 am

antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: lol... so only certain supernatural events... only if every other humans were involved... you guys are a bunch of crackpots...
Not the only, but that is one that would work.

DefenderofTruth wrote: But Ya quite possibly that would effect me if i had such a vision... I don't know why i would think that a powerful personal vision would have no effect on me, and i don't know why you say it wouldn't effect your beliefs... Pretty foolish to say that if you ask me...

If God revealed, one way or another, that the true religion was Islam i don't know why id say otherwise...
I guess the rationalist just believes that visions are far (near infinitely?) more likely to be of natural occurrence rather than supernatural, let alone believing one from a ~ 2000 year old story. Which I would say is the rational explanation, as we know that they are in fact a natural occurrence and we have no decent evidence of any 'supernatural visions' (do we even have a definition for a supernatural vision?).

By "natural" you mean either with people using drugs, or people with severe mental illness? Thats what you mean by "natural" right?

antonenus · Post by **antonenus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:04 am

DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: lol... so only certain supernatural events... only if every other humans were involved... you guys are a bunch of crackpots...
Not the only, but that is one that would work.

DefenderofTruth wrote: But Ya quite possibly that would effect me if i had such a vision... I don't know why i would think that a powerful personal vision would have no effect on me, and i don't know why you say it wouldn't effect your beliefs... Pretty foolish to say that if you ask me...

If God revealed, one way or another, that the true religion was Islam i don't know why id say otherwise...
I guess the rationalist just believes that visions are far (near infinitely?) more likely to be of natural occurrence rather than supernatural, let alone believing one from a ~ 2000 year old story. Which I would say is the rational explanation, as we know that they are in fact a natural occurrence and we have no decent evidence of any 'supernatural visions' (do we even have a definition for a supernatural vision?).

By "natural" you mean either with people using drugs, or people with severe mental illness? Thats what you mean by "natural" right?

By natural, I mean that it occurs in the brain. A 'vision' could either be either: seeing something physical (like a real person that other people can also see and touch), or a hallucination - which is a construct of the brain, much like a dream.

What is a supernatural vision?

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:06 am

antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: lol... so only certain supernatural events... only if every other humans were involved... you guys are a bunch of crackpots...
Not the only, but that is one that would work.

DefenderofTruth wrote: But Ya quite possibly that would effect me if i had such a vision... I don't know why i would think that a powerful personal vision would have no effect on me, and i don't know why you say it wouldn't effect your beliefs... Pretty foolish to say that if you ask me...

If God revealed, one way or another, that the true religion was Islam i don't know why id say otherwise...
I guess the rationalist just believes that visions are far (near infinitely?) more likely to be of natural occurrence rather than supernatural, let alone believing one from a ~ 2000 year old story. Which I would say is the rational explanation, as we know that they are in fact a natural occurrence and we have no decent evidence of any 'supernatural visions' (do we even have a definition for a supernatural vision?).

By "natural" you mean either with people using drugs, or people with severe mental illness? Thats what you mean by "natural" right?
By natural, I mean that it occurs in the brain. A 'vision' could either be either: seeing something physical (like a real person that other people can also see and touch), or a hallucination - which is a construct of the brain, much like a dream.

What is a supernatural vision?

The same as any other supernatural event. Something imposed by God or something like that.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:26 am

.

DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote: What is a supernatural vision?
The same as any other supernatural event.

Kindly list a few supernatural events that are known to have occurred (other than bible tales).

DefenderofTruth wrote: Something imposed by God or something like that.

What events have been imposed by which God? How is that known?

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:37 am

.

DefenderofTruth wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?
Well you can test spirits by Christ's name, the 3 epistles of John talks about that and this video is kind of profound that talks of that

I do not accept youtube videos as evidence in debate.

Can you not actually answer the question(s) in your own words?

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:41 am

Zzyzx wrote: .
DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote: What is a supernatural vision?
The same as any other supernatural event.
Kindly list a few supernatural events that are known to have occurred (other than bible tales).

DefenderofTruth wrote: Something imposed by God or something like that.
What events have been imposed by which God? How is that known?

Why should i answer these questions?

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:42 am

Zzyzx wrote: .
DefenderofTruth wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?
Well you can test spirits by Christ's name, the 3 epistles of John talks about that and this video is kind of profound that talks of that
I do not accept youtube videos as evidence in debate.

Can you not actually answer the question(s) in your own words?

I did. Go read the 3 epistles of John. I got to go to bed man, my sleeping pills are kicking in.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:09 am

.

DefenderofTruth wrote: Why should i answer these questions?

It is called debate. That is what we do here -- some of us anyway. Others just evade and/or preach (or maybe watch Youtube videos).

Korah · Post by **Korah** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:51 am

[Replying to post 48 by Zzyzx]
Pay no attention to Z, DoT.
Because he's the Mod who really runs things here, so he's got to behave and he can't insult you, lie about you, or even boot you out of here as quickly as he would a fellow non-Theist. (He doesn't have to "play" fair with them.)

But no, notice I didn't say he won't harass you, get you to admit things you'd never want to (look at ME, for....whoops, no blasphemy allowed here--oh, that's another thing, he can't swear at you like I can do, 'cause I can start a sentence with "God" or "Christ" and cleverly turn it around like I'm praying, addressing the God I believe in), or drive you off this Forum in total exasperation. You/ve got to keep perspective that we're playing for "keeps" here and you've got to keep a thick skin up armor-plated.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:27 am

Zzyzx wrote: I do not accept youtube videos as evidence in debate.

I watched it, it's just some guy trying to sell his book. He claimed to have read about a way to communicate with God from a book while he was still seeking spirituality, after successfully contacting "God" using that method, he was advice by a Christian friend to challenge "God" in the name of Jesus. It turns the spirit he was in contact with was a demon none other than Satan himself. If the name of Jesus has power over Satan, there must be truth in Christianity. Instead of just telling you the method so you can verify it yourself, you should definitely buy his book to read all about it in all its frightening detail. Seems legit.