Let's cut to the chase: did the resurrection happen?

[Haven]

Recently, there have been a lot of threads on topics related to the resurrection of Jesus (empty tomb, supernaturalism vs. naturalism, historical records, and so on). I think it may be helpful to discuss the big picture: did the resurrection of Jesus happen or not? This thread is the place to discuss it: offer any argument for or against the resurrection. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.

Debate question: Was Jesus resurrected from the dead?

_________
Thread rules:
1) Offer evidence or logical argument. Simply providing Bible quotes isn't sufficient.
2) Faith, while valid on a personal level, isn't evidence for a claim. Provide empirical evidence from history, textual criticism, physics, and so on, not simply statements of faith.
3) Be kind to each other. All of us, regardless of our religious position, are conscious beings deserving of respect and civility.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 90 by DefenderofTruth]

The Bible, isn't that just the Youtube of the 3rd century BC?

[Blastcat]

did the resurrection happen? Good question, lets explore that.

First off, I have never claimed to have witnessed the resurrection myself, I would like to be clear about that point. That said, neither has any of us. So thats that.

I also would like to address naturalism vs supernaturalism. Is nature all there is?

the argument from ignorance.

Not knowing X about Y says nothing about Z

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 90 by DefenderofTruth]

Dude, please don't get banned. I enjoy our dialogue and your posts in general. I think a lot of people here do.

Be careful and stay!

You're wrong about God, but for the right reasons. You are fighting the good fight. You really are. The God of Abraham is an evil imbecilic dick, and the bible is a pack of ridiculous mythological fiary tales and philosophizing visions and bullshit, but you defend them as best you can.

I hope you stay, and I hope you enjoy more reason in the future than what led you to believe in your style of Christianity in the past and feel so beholden to it now.

[DefenderofTruth]

[Replying to post 90 by DefenderofTruth]

Dude, please don't get banned. I enjoy our dialogue and your posts in general. I think a lot of people here do.

Be careful and stay!

You're wrong about God, but for the right reasons. You are fighting the good fight. You really are. The God of Abraham is an evil imbecilic dick, and the bible is a pack of ridiculous mythological fiary tales and philosophizing visions and bullshit, but you defend them as best you can.

I hope you stay, and I hope you enjoy more reason in the future than what led you to believe in your style of Christianity in the past and feel so beholden to it now.

Well i have had a string of pm's with the admin which i would share with you, but a final warning means i can not share pm's without his permission unless i want to break a rule and be put on a 30 day probation.

But if i am banned i want everyone to know what i believe, now.

It is God who will be the light of my path and it is God who will dictate where i go. God called me out of the world which is what i am most thankful for from Him. My soul has been persecuted and put into bondage.. I have been there already living in the shadow of ungodly men, but God forgave me and calls people out of the world into light. Faith is what God calls us to live by no matter what, when in the face of any persecution. No matter in the face of suffering, because those who suffer for what God wills are blessed, because Jesus Christ was put to death by men who attempted to condemn him by God and it is Jesus Christ who is my LORD and savior.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 94 by DefenderofTruth]

I appreciate that, but you need to understand that your God is you.

YOU are defining your God. YOU are the one expressing who your God is. That's what you do and what he is. You.

But congratulations!! Your God is good. So you're good. Just drive this thing. Be you and define good and eschew evil. Be the Buddha and dream your godhood. It's a good thing. Try it. If you need a historical fiction to do that then do it. But it's a hindrance. Myth is great for myth. It's fantastic. Yours is too. It's a good myth. Enjoyable and useful. You really can do this knowing God to be you and myth and the expression of ones highest ideals.

I hope you stay and are not banned.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 90 by DefenderofTruth]

Dude, please don't get banned. I enjoy our dialogue and your posts in general. I think a lot of people here do.

Be careful and stay!

You're wrong about God, but for the right reasons. You are fighting the good fight. You really are. The God of Abraham is an evil imbecilic dick, and the bible is a pack of ridiculous mythological fiary tales and philosophizing visions and bullshit, but you defend them as best you can.

I hope you stay, and I hope you enjoy more reason in the future than what led you to believe in your style of Christianity in the past and feel so beholden to it now.

Well i have had a string of pm's with the admin which i would share with you, but a final warning means i can not share pm's without his permission unless i want to break a rule and be put on a 30 day probation.

But if i am banned i want everyone to know what i believe, now.

It is God who will be the light of my path and it is God who will dictate where i go. God called me out of the world which is what i am most thankful for from Him. My soul has been persecuted and put into bondage.. I have been there already living in the shadow of ungodly men, but God forgave me and calls people out of the world into light. Faith is what God calls us to live by no matter what, when in the face of any persecution. No matter in the face of suffering, because those who suffer for what God wills are blessed, because Jesus Christ was put to death by men who attempted to condemn him by God and it is Jesus Christ who is my LORD and savior.

You've made yourself completely clear long before this. I'd hate to see you go, too, for a lot of the same reasons Hatuey said. You punch your own ticket around here, as far as I can tell. Do you believe you will be banned for not changing your beliefs or toeing the party line? Is this a martyr thing? I don't mean to offend you, but so far, getting yourself banned is a cop out. It takes more guts to stay and improve how you explain and support your beliefs.

[DefenderofTruth]

[Replying to post 90 by DefenderofTruth]

Dude, please don't get banned. I enjoy our dialogue and your posts in general. I think a lot of people here do.

Be careful and stay!

You're wrong about God, but for the right reasons. You are fighting the good fight. You really are. The God of Abraham is an evil imbecilic dick, and the bible is a pack of ridiculous mythological fiary tales and philosophizing visions and bullshit, but you defend them as best you can.

I hope you stay, and I hope you enjoy more reason in the future than what led you to believe in your style of Christianity in the past and feel so beholden to it now.

Well i have had a string of pm's with the admin which i would share with you, but a final warning means i can not share pm's without his permission unless i want to break a rule and be put on a 30 day probation.

But if i am banned i want everyone to know what i believe, now.

It is God who will be the light of my path and it is God who will dictate where i go. God called me out of the world which is what i am most thankful for from Him. My soul has been persecuted and put into bondage.. I have been there already living in the shadow of ungodly men, but God forgave me and calls people out of the world into light. Faith is what God calls us to live by no matter what, when in the face of any persecution. No matter in the face of suffering, because those who suffer for what God wills are blessed, because Jesus Christ was put to death by men who attempted to condemn him by God and it is Jesus Christ who is my LORD and savior.

You've made yourself completely clear long before this. I'd hate to see you go, too, for a lot of the same reasons Hatuey said. You punch your own ticket around here, as far as I can tell. Do you believe you will be banned for not changing your beliefs or toeing the party line? Is this a martyr thing? I don't mean to offend you, but so far, getting yourself banned is a cop out. It takes more guts to stay and improve how you explain and support your beliefs.

No, I am not trying to get banned by no means, but I'm not perfect either. But Jesus was, and Jesus holds the forgiveness of God. He doesn't forsake anyone who seeks Him. One more infraction and i will be put on probation, the admin was clear on that point so i will have to be very careful, the admin was pretty clear that there is no forgiveness here. So i guess it'll play out. I already got moderators hunting me, no more fighting with them on my part less I'm a goner...

Its ok guys... Ill just have to be very careful.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 94 by DefenderofTruth]

This thread is already drastically off-topic. Please avoid preaching like you've done here (General Chat, Random Ramblings, and The Holy Huddle are the places for that) and stick to debating the questions in the OP.

[tam]

In answer to the debate question: Yes.


I can offer personal testimony as evidence (and did so on another thread)... that Christ lives and speaks. But that will not be accepted by most.

The written accounts that testify to a living Christ who speaks and spoke to people personally after his death, resurrection and ascension... are corroborated by personal testimony by people who hear Him now. But again, that will not be accepted by most, even though anyone may ask for ears to hear, for God to send them His Truth (Christ).

If you will be checking yourself into the nearest mental hospital in response to a personal revelation like that though... then what would be the point in giving you one except to scare you? You do not really WANT that experience, so with few exceptions (Paul being the only one I know of), that experience will not be forced upon you.

***


I can offer some things from what everyone knows (or can look up as being proven) as evidence that a resurrection could be possible with the right tools, knowledge, power, energy.

WE, man, can resuscitate people who have died, albeit within a very small window. That window grows as our technology and knowledge of the flesh/brain/etc works. How much bigger does that window get with all knowledge, power, proper tools, etc?

Some creatures can regrow certain body parts (salamanders). Perhaps we have that ability as well, just not 'triggered'. I actually just googled how science is getting along in regrowing flesh, and I came across an article about regenerative medicine, experiments and the like.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-b ... matrix.htm

The person who wrote the article actually makes the Salamander example, and also mentions that we generate all our flesh and bones in the womb, and so perhaps that is an event that can be triggered with the right knowledge, tool, power.


So the above are not evidence for you that the resurrection DID happen. But they are perhaps food for thought that - with the right power/energy/spark (of Life)/ such a resurrection (and many others) COULD happen.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to add the link to the article I mentioned)

[Zzyzx]

.

WE, man, can resuscitate people who have died, albeit within a very small window. That window grows as our technology and knowledge of the flesh/brain/etc works. How much bigger does that window get with all knowledge, power, proper tools, etc?

Being realistic, how far into the description below might "the window" be extended? Forensic biologists regard the changes as irreversible.

What Happens To A Body After Death?

Almost at the very moment of death, the human body starts to fall apart. For many, human decomposition, or even the very idea of death, is repellent and depressing. But the more time you spend around it, and the more you see the body at all stages of decay, as ORS does, the more you can appreciate it. It’s a undoubtedly a disgusting, foul-smelling, hazardous mess, but within that mess is a stunning system, the coming-together of chemicals, bacteria, fungi, insects, animals, and the natural processes of time and heat. So today, we’re going to go through the process, step-by-step, from the outside in, and from the inside out.

Stage 1: Fresh

According to forensic pathologists, there are five main stages of decomposition. The first starts within minutes of death. (We’ll avoid talking too much about specific timeframes here, because so much depends on the environment: temperature, moisture, wildlife, etc. What might take weeks in the middle of winter could happen in a matter of days in a summer heat wave.)

All muscles go limp, and that includes the urinary sphincter and bowels. They release, creating the first mess and bad odour in the decomposition process (but far from the last). Another muscle, the heart, also stops, meaning no blood flow, meaning no oxygen. Cells start dying immediately. The internal enzymes that normally help cells consume nutrients, now digest them from the inside out, in a process called autolysis.

Blood follows the natural course of gravity and pools at the body’s lowest points. This leads to a pale appearance with dark splotchy areas. The body slowly cools down. Muscles soon go stiff again (rigor mortis), and will only stay that way until the tissue gets so degraded that it can’t stay stiff anymore.

Even if the body is indoors, the first flies will generally arrive within hours – but they don’t start eating. Instead, they seek out the nearest cavity (ear, nose, etc.) to lay the next generation of consumers: up to 500 eggs. If the body is outside, other animals may arrive too: beetles, rats, raccoons, wolves, crows, vultures, and so on. Scavenger animals have highly acidic stomachs and special gut bacteria that allow them to eat decomposing matter. A vulture can eat meat infected with botulism or anthrax without getting sick. Still, they prefer their meals at least relatively fresh.


Stages of decomposition

The five stages of decomposition: (1) fresh, (2) bloat, (3) active decay, (4) advanced decay, and (5) dry/remains (images via Wikipedia)

Stage 2: Bloat

Putrefaction comes next. Digestive bacteria start digesting the body from the inside, and stomach acid bursts through the stomach lining and keeps eating. This releases two gases (putrescine and cadaverine) that are responsible for the sickly sweet smell associated with a decomposing body.

These gases give this stage its name: bloat. The chest cavity and limbs expand, the skin tightens, the tongue and eyes protrude. The new fluids in the body create visible greenish-black splotches, called ‘marbling.’

The fly eggs hatch, and hundreds of tiny, pink, eyeless worm-like creatures known as maggots emerge. They feast on any fluids leaking out, then join into groups, using their tiny hook-like mouths to burrow into the body in search of more food.

Stage 3: Active Decay

As the pressure grows, and maggots make more tiny holes, and other animals make bigger ones, the skin starts to rupture. ‘Purge fluid,’ a greenish-black mix of putrescine, cadaverine, blood, feces, and other bodily fluids, flows freely from bodily cavities. The smell is of death overwhelming, making it difficult for humans to breathe in the area, but acting as a dinner bell for yet more flies and animals.

A mini-ecosystem forms around the body, which pathologists refer to as a ‘cadaver decomposition island,’ a little oasis of death and acidic purge fluid (visible in the stages of decomposition photo above). If the body is outside, plants in the area die out, creating a ring around the body. If the body is inside, fluid seeps through carpet, flooring, sometimes even subfloor.

The fluid is also extremely hazardous. Putrescine and cadaverine on their own are only toxic in very high doses, but the rest of the bodily fluids can make you very sick. Fecal matter may contain Norwalk, rotavirus, E.coli, and others; and if the person was already sick, it’s very possible to transmit other diseases: hepatitis B and C, HIV, tuberculosis, cholera and others.

Maggots flourish in this environment, adding their own digestive enzymes into the mix. Within a few days, they grow to ten times their original size, and enter their pupal stage.
Stage 4 and 5: Advanced Decay and Dry/Remains

The face is now completely unrecognizable, and everything else soon follows. And yet, in an odd way, this is when life really starts thriving again. Maggots emerge from their pupa as full-grown flies and immediately start mating. The growth rate is stunning, as each pair lays another 500 eggs. Other new life is created, too.

The body is far beyond breathing, but all the open cavities mean oxygen enters the body again. Anaerobic bacteria die off, but a new generation of aerobic bacteria thrive. The minerals and amino acids in the purge fluid promote fungal growth inside the ‘cadaver decomposition island.’

Eventually, all liquid is evaporated or consumed. All that remains is the tough stuff: skin, cartilage, and bones, which dry out completely (or ‘skeletonize’). Flies and other animals leave. Fungi recede, leaving behind good topsoil. Plants grow, and the earth returns to normal.
http://www.ontarioremediation.ca/2014/0 ... ter-death/

Although the speed at which these processes occur varies with many factors, in a warm climate three days should (guessing) get into second stage and perhaps beyond.