Let's cut to the chase: did the resurrection happen?

[Haven]

Recently, there have been a lot of threads on topics related to the resurrection of Jesus (empty tomb, supernaturalism vs. naturalism, historical records, and so on). I think it may be helpful to discuss the big picture: did the resurrection of Jesus happen or not? This thread is the place to discuss it: offer any argument for or against the resurrection. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.

Debate question: Was Jesus resurrected from the dead?

_________
Thread rules:
1) Offer evidence or logical argument. Simply providing Bible quotes isn't sufficient.
2) Faith, while valid on a personal level, isn't evidence for a claim. Provide empirical evidence from history, textual criticism, physics, and so on, not simply statements of faith.
3) Be kind to each other. All of us, regardless of our religious position, are conscious beings deserving of respect and civility.

[Bust Nak]

Z asked me how to identify if the "spirit is the Devil" and i told him, you test spirits by Christ's name. I then referenced two things that collaborate what I'm talking about, the 3 Epistles of John and a testimony from a youtube video, which he apparently rejected..

That assumes Christianity is true, what if the name of Christ had no power? How do you identify if a spirit is lying about being God, if Christianity itself is false? What if a spirit wants to manipulate you into believing in Christianity by faking being compelled by the name of Christ? What you said here doesn't cover any of these scenarios.

[DefenderofTruth]

Z asked me how to identify if the "spirit is the Devil" and i told him, you test spirits by Christ's name. I then referenced two things that collaborate what I'm talking about, the 3 Epistles of John and a testimony from a youtube video, which he apparently rejected..

That assumes Christianity is true, what if the name of Christ had no power? How do you identify if a spirit is lying about being God, if Christianity itself is false? What if a spirit wants to manipulate you into believing in Christianity by faking being compelled by the name of Christ? What you said here doesn't cover any of these scenarios.

Well that wasn't the question. The original question was as followed.

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

I think if the supernatural is true, if the 'deceiver' or the Devil is true, thats evidence of Christianity. You need to rethink your question...

If Christianity was false then using Christ's name would be meaningless, but thats not what i believe is true and i even linked an nonbeliever who used Christ's name and demonstrated that it is true.

But if Christianity is false Christ's name would be meaningless.

[Blastcat]

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would Christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

Or A devil.. some KIND of devil who would have GREAT powers.. read your mind, do magic, etc.. and NOT really be one of the kinds of demons YOU believe in, but some OTHER kind of demon.. who is making you believe in ALL manner of weird stuff JUST for ... whatever reason this demon might have. Who know, right?

Just because in your narrative there happens to be a character that is a demon.. doesn't mean that THAT demon is real. It could be, if the supernatural realm were to exist be some OTHER deceiving kind of demon.. evil to be sure.. but not at all what you might EXPECT from studying your particular holy book.

Maybe what we would call a DEMON would be now called an ALIEN with incredible powers and such advanced technology that we mere humans would be PLAYTHINGS in comparison.

To be played with.. like we go to the ZOO.... and these aliens have the ability to train us.. and control our minds. And NO supernatural need apply for this to be true.

And how would we KNOW.. that's the question.. if we don't know.. how CAN we know?

Are we living in a Matrix? How would we KNOW?

So why ASSUME your heavenly garden of delights is real.. or that Jesus saves, or that he TELLS you secret stuff.....

I think if the supernatural is true, if the 'deceiver' or the Devil is true, thats evidence of Christianity. You need to rethink your question...

A deceiver, if it does ANYTHING deceives.

So.. let's say we had PROOF of a demon .. we could NOT TRUST what this demon said. So, if it LOOKS like Satan, and BEHAVES like Satan... maybe we shouldn't just assume that it IS Satan.. maybe it's some OTHER kind of being with incredible powers DECEIVING you to believe that it is Satan.

Because, after all, that's what deceivers do.. they deceive.

So, it would be pretty BAD evidence.. untrustable and unreliable evidence.
That's the PROBLEM with deceivers.. you just can't trust them.

If Christianity was false then using Christ's name would be meaningless, but thats not what i believe is true and i even linked an nonbeliever who used Christ's name and demonstrated that it is true.

Well, if this demonstration REALLY worked, there would be no atheists. A LOT of claims have been made for miracles, and a LOT of really bad thinking went to support these claims.

The reason we atheists aren't so impressed by these "proofs" is that they have all failed to pass even the MOST generous examination.

But if Christianity is false Christ's name would be meaningless.

Not at all.
Just because the name is famous and elicits all manner of emotional effects in believers does NOT mean that the religion is based on what is true.

The word can be quite popular AND false. The word can be quite POWERFUL and false.

the ONLY real question there is to be asked of theists is:

How do you know that what you believe in is TRUE?.... I keep asking that over and over .. now for almost 5 years online I ask this question.

SO, once again....

How do you know what you believe in is TRUE?

[Hamsaka]

Z asked me how to identify if the "spirit is the Devil" and i told him, you test spirits by Christ's name. I then referenced two things that collaborate what I'm talking about, the 3 Epistles of John and a testimony from a youtube video, which he apparently rejected..

That assumes Christianity is true, what if the name of Christ had no power? How do you identify if a spirit is lying about being God, if Christianity itself is false? What if a spirit wants to manipulate you into believing in Christianity by faking being compelled by the name of Christ? What you said here doesn't cover any of these scenarios.

Well that wasn't the question. The original question was as followed.

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

This is a straightforward question. It does assume, for the sake of argument, that supernatural entities exist and 'cause things to happen', interact/communicate with humans, and have characters and qualities we can (sort of) identify with.

The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

Yes . . . and so, how would you know if the experience you have of your god is 'the genuine article' from Christ, versus a smooth-talking Satan who can also quote scripture?

I think if the supernatural is true, if the 'deceiver' or the Devil is true, thats evidence of Christianity. You need to rethink your question...

Correct, we are assuming, for the sake of this argument, that the supernatural is 'true'. If we've agreed on that, then we still need to agree on what god or gods/demons/spirits/angels/whatevers are legitimately members of the supernatural. You jumped wayyy to quickly from 'supernatural=true' to 'therefore, Christ."

There's a lot more going on, here. It's entirely possible, if the devil is a real supernatural being, and behaves the way Christians say he does, that he could fool any human, any time and in ways we can't imagine.

Most people I know who claim a subjective experience of God or Christ (be it that 'still small voice' or feelings and impressions) admit they just KNOW they are experiencing God. They don't know how they know, they just do.

I was a psychiatric nurse for many years and met me a few folks who 'just knew' they were hearing from the devil, and would get just as defensive and angry as the one's hearing from Jesus get when they are questioned.

If Christianity was false then using Christ's name would be meaningless, but thats not what i believe is true and i even linked an nonbeliever who used Christ's name and demonstrated that it is true.

But if Christianity is false Christ's name would be meaningless.

Exactly. So your task is to demonstrate Christ's name is not meaninglessness. You apprehend correctly that Christ's name is meaningless without evidence. And, it seems wise to have some idea how to determine which supernatural being you are 'hearing' from that has more teeth than 'I just know'.

Especially considering how easily a person can be fooled by a powerful and evil supernatural being.

[DefenderofTruth]

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would Christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

Or A devil.. some KIND of devil who would have GREAT powers.. read your mind, do magic, etc.. and NOT really be one of the kinds of demons YOU believe in, but some OTHER kind of demon.. who is making you believe in ALL manner of weird stuff JUST for ... whatever reason this demon might have. Who know, right?

Just because in your narrative there happens to be a character that is a demon.. doesn't mean that THAT demon is real. It could be, if the supernatural realm were to exist be some OTHER deceiving kind of demon.. evil to be sure.. but not at all what you might EXPECT from studying your particular holy book.

Maybe what we would call a DEMON would be now called an ALIEN with incredible powers and such advanced technology that we mere humans would be PLAYTHINGS in comparison.

To be played with.. like we go to the ZOO.... and these aliens have the ability to train us.. and control our minds. And NO supernatural need apply for this to be true.

And how would we KNOW.. that's the question.. if we don't know.. how CAN we know?

Are we living in a Matrix? How would we KNOW?

So why ASSUME your heavenly garden of delights is real.. or that Jesus saves, or that he TELLS you secret stuff.....

I think if the supernatural is true, if the 'deceiver' or the Devil is true, thats evidence of Christianity. You need to rethink your question...

A deceiver, if it does ANYTHING deceives.

So.. let's say we had PROOF of a demon .. we could NOT TRUST what this demon said. So, if it LOOKS like Satan, and BEHAVES like Satan... maybe we shouldn't just assume that it IS Satan.. maybe it's some OTHER kind of being with incredible powers DECEIVING you to believe that it is Satan.

Because, after all, that's what deceivers do.. they deceive.

So, it would be pretty BAD evidence.. untrustable and unreliable evidence.
That's the PROBLEM with deceivers.. you just can't trust them.

If Christianity was false then using Christ's name would be meaningless, but thats not what i believe is true and i even linked an nonbeliever who used Christ's name and demonstrated that it is true.

Well, if this demonstration REALLY worked, there would be no atheists. A LOT of claims have been made for miracles, and a LOT of really bad thinking went to support these claims.

The reason we atheists aren't so impressed by these "proofs" is that they have all failed to pass even the MOST generous examination.

But if Christianity is false Christ's name would be meaningless.

Not at all.
Just because the name is famous and elicits all manner of emotional effects in believers does NOT mean that the religion is based on what is true.

The word can be quite popular AND false. The word can be quite POWERFUL and false.

the ONLY real question there is to be asked of theists is:

How do you know that what you believe in is TRUE?.... I keep asking that over and over .. now for almost 5 years online I ask this question.

SO, once again....

How do you know what you believe in is TRUE?

How do i know what i believe is true? Well if you think that it is possible the we are in the matrix, and aliens control our brains, and these huge kind of conspiracies are possible then how would anyone be able to say they know truth to you? For all you know, if we even amuse the possibility of the matrix, the principles of physics might just be dowloaded in a computer that controls our brains... That is a lot of mysterious possibilities you play with...

But if Christianity is true, then God is made known to us. A Holy God is made known to us. Thats what it meant when Jesus said, "I am the light", that truth can be known to humanity. That is what it means, it means truth is able to be made know. If we played with the idea of the Matrix then who's to say that any truth can be made known? If the Matrix is true then NOBODY knows truth.. It would be hidden away from us if that was true, but that goes against the teaching of a "Holy God".

Thats what Presuppositional Apologetics is all about. You say that which is unknown might be the real truth, you can't even make sense of "truth" in that world view. We say truth starts with God, and truth is known by all. If there is absolute truth, Presuppositional Apologetics says that is proof that God exists. If people can agree that there is absolute truths then your world view doesn't make sense, like the possibility of the matrix. But even the materialistic atheist usually admit there is truth, and absolute truth, but if we are just matter in motion and nothing more then stardust than how would you make sense of truth, like objective moral truth's?

Presuppositional Apologetics says if there is truth in the world, and it is able to be made know, then that is proof God exists.

actually this street preacher, and Christian debater, Sye Ten like to debate this topic.

Here is a video of a street preaching/debate you might want to check out.


or Dr. Greg Behnsen




I don't usually debate using Presuppositional Apologetics but you pretty much set the stage up...I personally think Presuppositional Apologetics is an intriguing thing to think about

[tam]

DoT wrote:
The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

Hamsaka wrote: Yes . . . and so, how would you know if the experience you have of your god is 'the genuine article' from Christ, versus a smooth-talking Satan who can also quote scripture?

Since I think this is the same as the first question asked by Zzyzx, I, too would like to respond. If the following is considered preaching, then I apologize, but I do not know how else to answer a question about spirits speaking except with the truth that I have learned FROM Christ. I can move this entire post to another area of the forum and title it 'test the inspired expressions', and then just link to it on this thread if the mods or the OP say that would be best.



DoT is correct in that one can and (and we are told TO) test the inspired expression (and/or spirit that spoke):

You can test what is being heard (by you or by someone else who shares it with you) against Christ... directly... if you have the faith to hear Him. Anything that contradicts him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against what is written - beginning with what Christ is written to have said, because His words take precedence over anything else that is written. He is the One God told us to listen TO. Again, anything that contradicts Him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against love. If you are hearing something that is against love, then either you have misunderstood what you are hearing, or you are not hearing from Christ (and so also not His Father). Any spirit that tells you to go harm someone else... you will know that is not from Christ; because Christ never did that nor taught that, and in fact teaches opposite that.


If the message is false, contradicting Christ, and contradicting love... then the spirit speaking to you (or to another) is not from Christ. Or you have misunderstood something about the message.

**

I would not put much stock in the name "Jesus". That was never His name, and there are about as many version of 'Jesus' out there as there are denominations, including people who have claimed that "Jesus" told them to do something (bad).


The name of my Lord is Jaheshua ('j' pronounced with a y sound), the Chosen One of Jah. His name, like the names of many prophets, bears the name of His Father (Jahveh) - whose name Christ came IN.


I only recently learned the real importance of knowing His name to help determine if a spirit or inspired expression came from Him, when some were recommending and basing their ministry off of a book that claims to be from spirits sent by Jesus.
I tested the message of that book against Christ and so already knew that it was false, being in conflict with Him. But then He also said to me about the spirits who are claimed to have given this book, "How can they be from me, child, when they do not even know my name."


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[DefenderofTruth]

Z asked me how to identify if the "spirit is the Devil" and i told him, you test spirits by Christ's name. I then referenced two things that collaborate what I'm talking about, the 3 Epistles of John and a testimony from a youtube video, which he apparently rejected..

That assumes Christianity is true, what if the name of Christ had no power? How do you identify if a spirit is lying about being God, if Christianity itself is false? What if a spirit wants to manipulate you into believing in Christianity by faking being compelled by the name of Christ? What you said here doesn't cover any of these scenarios.

Well that wasn't the question. The original question was as followed.

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

This is a straightforward question. It does assume, for the sake of argument, that supernatural entities exist and 'cause things to happen', interact/communicate with humans, and have characters and qualities we can (sort of) identify with.

The question doesn't only assume Christianity is true (because i think the question implied 'how would christianity, or a christian know'?) but it also assumes spirits and real and the devil is true.

Yes . . . and so, how would you know if the experience you have of your god is 'the genuine article' from Christ, versus a smooth-talking Satan who can also quote scripture?

I think if the supernatural is true, if the 'deceiver' or the Devil is true, thats evidence of Christianity. You need to rethink your question...

Correct, we are assuming, for the sake of this argument, that the supernatural is 'true'. If we've agreed on that, then we still need to agree on what god or gods/demons/spirits/angels/whatevers are legitimately members of the supernatural. You jumped wayyy to quickly from 'supernatural=true' to 'therefore, Christ."

There's a lot more going on, here. It's entirely possible, if the devil is a real supernatural being, and behaves the way Christians say he does, that he could fool any human, any time and in ways we can't imagine.

Most people I know who claim a subjective experience of God or Christ (be it that 'still small voice' or feelings and impressions) admit they just KNOW they are experiencing God. They don't know how they know, they just do.

I was a psychiatric nurse for many years and met me a few folks who 'just knew' they were hearing from the devil, and would get just as defensive and angry as the one's hearing from Jesus get when they are questioned.

If Christianity was false then using Christ's name would be meaningless, but thats not what i believe is true and i even linked an nonbeliever who used Christ's name and demonstrated that it is true.

But if Christianity is false Christ's name would be meaningless.

Exactly. So your task is to demonstrate Christ's name is not meaninglessness. You apprehend correctly that Christ's name is meaningless without evidence. And, it seems wise to have some idea how to determine which supernatural being you are 'hearing' from that has more teeth than 'I just know'.

Especially considering how easily a person can be fooled by a powerful and evil supernatural being.

Well if this is a debate about if Christianity is true, or Christ's name is the power of God, thats a pretty big debate and is pretty much the center piece of the entire web site. People may have subjective experiences in God but we don't say these prove truth to everyone. Instead we look to what Christianity is, and if their "subjective" truths about Christ are in line with scripture these truths would become more objective then subjective. If the scripture holds truth regardless of what you and I believe then that is objective truth and that is what we would be looking for.

But a debate about if Christianity is true is a pretty big debate to take. This particular debate is that if the resurrection is true and i had a detailed response in post # 6. Which spiraled into a debate about whether or not Paul's testimony would be credible, which i dont think anyone gave good debate on Paul's testimony being false.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 106 by tam]

DoT is correct in that one can and (and we are told TO) test the inspired expression (and/or spirit that spoke):

You can test what is being heard (by you or by someone else who shares it with you) against Christ... directly... if you have the faith to hear Him. Anything that contradicts him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against what is written - beginning with what Christ is written to have said, because His words take precedence over anything else that is written. He is the One God told us to listen TO. Again, anything that contradicts Him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against love. If you are hearing something that is against love, then either you have misunderstood what you are hearing, or you are not hearing from Christ (and so also not His Father). Any spirit that tells you to go harm someone else... you will know that is not from Christ; because Christ never did that nor taught that, and in fact teaches opposite that.


If the message is false, contradicting Christ, and contradicting love... then the spirit speaking to you (or to another) is not from Christ. Or you have misunderstood something about the message.

I think this is what Zz was after, and it is certainly what I myself was after, thank you

In summary, if supernatural beings exist and can detectably interact with humans in ways we can understand, and the supernatural beings in question are indeed Christ and/or Satan, a person has these three resources to use to determine who they are 'hearing' from.

They are sensible in and of themselves, and the latter two are especially sensible, in that there is a Bible to reference and 'love' being pretty much a universal human experience. Even a young child can verbalize the difference between what is 'loving' and what isn't.

As for the first one, I think everyone can relate with that 'still small voice'. When we hear someone say " . . . and then I thought, 'that person is lying to me'" we understand what they mean -- one thought process was 'interrupted' suddenly by another, and at a subjective level of feeling, there is this sense of 'yes!' . There is 'concurrence', so to speak. To me, it is a kind of gut instinct, not words or even feelings, but definitely an awareness (that is uncommonly accurate the older I get).

I don't know what it is like to have a god's voice (or however it works) inside my mind. I have known plenty of people who say they have. My honest self appraisal (above) doesn't sound that different on paper, but it could be a million miles different for all I know about what it is really like. I have expectations that are gleaned from 50 years of life on Planet Earth about what it would be like, but so far what I do experience is not nearly so dramatic or riveting as I expect having God's voice speak within me would be.

I would expect it to tell me things I could not possibly know. I don't mean String Theory or lottery numbers, but just every day type stuff. A god would know much more than I do, and would ostensibly know what would be helpful to me (and what wouldn't be). I would expect it not to 'sound' anything like 'me'. Does a voice in one's mind have a 'sound'?

I have a good friend who is a Christian, and like you, I believe her when she says God speaks to her. She is utterly mundane and down-to-earth, and is the first to admit she can't explain it rationally. Maybe that's exactly what's happening with her, maybe her mind works a bit differently than mine and other skeptical types. Maybe God only talks to certain people.

What tips the scales in the skeptical direction for me is the correlation between the cultural religion and the god this member of the culture hears from. We hear from the gods we know and not from the gods we've never heard of. Even Moses heard from a local god.

So if the gods are all different, and universally, historically, humans apprehend gods with the exact same bodies, minds, intellects and emotions -- either all of the gods are 'true' (thus the question Zz and I were asking, its reasonable they could interfere with one another) or the 'truth' does not lie within a god, but within human apprehension.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 105 by DefenderofTruth]
Point of clarification about DoT's #105. Lot's of what lines up on the far left is not DoT's but is Blast Cat's.
(I have to confess, in spite of my assurances to mods that I would sort-of stifle myself, but here I was about to "like" DoT's post, got worried that a lot of it did not sound like him, got suspicious that the quotes function wasn't worked right, found out there was indeed this problem, and much of what I liked so well was actually by Blast Cat! When Blast Cat says it, I'll ignore it (but golly can he go on so long that I would not "like" it just on my contrariness of general principle!), but let DoT say the same thing and I want to say "Amen, brother!")

And "No!", I did not affix "like" to #104 thinking it was Tam's. I know it's really Hamsaka's, considering supernaturalism "for the sake of argument".

So accordingly, I have now affixed "like" to Blastcat's #103. After all the analysis here of demons, etc. reminds me of Rene Descartes in "Meditations", the second:
"I suppose, accordingly, that everything that I see is false; I convince myself that nothing has ever existed of all that my deceitful memory recalls to me...But how do I know that there is not some entity, of a different nature from what I have just judged uncertain...is there a certain spirit who is extremely powerful and, if I may dare to say so, malicious and tricky, and who uses all his abilities and efforts in order to deveive me?" Few comment on how weakly Descartes gets out of this hole he had dug for himself.

[DefenderofTruth]

[Replying to post 106 by tam]

DoT is correct in that one can and (and we are told TO) test the inspired expression (and/or spirit that spoke):

You can test what is being heard (by you or by someone else who shares it with you) against Christ... directly... if you have the faith to hear Him. Anything that contradicts him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against what is written - beginning with what Christ is written to have said, because His words take precedence over anything else that is written. He is the One God told us to listen TO. Again, anything that contradicts Him is not from Him.

You can test what you are hearing against love. If you are hearing something that is against love, then either you have misunderstood what you are hearing, or you are not hearing from Christ (and so also not His Father). Any spirit that tells you to go harm someone else... you will know that is not from Christ; because Christ never did that nor taught that, and in fact teaches opposite that.


If the message is false, contradicting Christ, and contradicting love... then the spirit speaking to you (or to another) is not from Christ. Or you have misunderstood something about the message.

I think this is what Zz was after, and it is certainly what I myself was after, thank you

In summary, if supernatural beings exist and can detectably interact with humans in ways we can understand, and the supernatural beings in question are indeed Christ and/or Satan, a person has these three resources to use to determine who they are 'hearing' from.

They are sensible in and of themselves, and the latter two are especially sensible, in that there is a Bible to reference and 'love' being pretty much a universal human experience. Even a young child can verbalize the difference between what is 'loving' and what isn't.

As for the first one, I think everyone can relate with that 'still small voice'. When we hear someone say " . . . and then I thought, 'that person is lying to me'" we understand what they mean -- one thought process was 'interrupted' suddenly by another, and at a subjective level of feeling, there is this sense of 'yes!' . There is 'concurrence', so to speak. To me, it is a kind of gut instinct, not words or even feelings, but definitely an awareness (that is uncommonly accurate the older I get).

I don't know what it is like to have a god's voice (or however it works) inside my mind. I have known plenty of people who say they have. My honest self appraisal (above) doesn't sound that different on paper, but it could be a million miles different for all I know about what it is really like. I have expectations that are gleaned from 50 years of life on Planet Earth about what it would be like, but so far what I do experience is not nearly so dramatic or riveting as I expect having God's voice speak within me would be.

I would expect it to tell me things I could not possibly know. I don't mean String Theory or lottery numbers, but just every day type stuff. A god would know much more than I do, and would ostensibly know what would be helpful to me (and what wouldn't be). I would expect it not to 'sound' anything like 'me'. Does a voice in one's mind have a 'sound'?

I have a good friend who is a Christian, and like you, I believe her when she says God speaks to her. She is utterly mundane and down-to-earth, and is the first to admit she can't explain it rationally. Maybe that's exactly what's happening with her, maybe her mind works a bit differently than mine and other skeptical types. Maybe God only talks to certain people.

What tips the scales in the skeptical direction for me is the correlation between the cultural religion and the god this member of the culture hears from. We hear from the gods we know and not from the gods we've never heard of. Even Moses heard from a local god.

So if the gods are all different, and universally, historically, humans apprehend gods with the exact same bodies, minds, intellects and emotions -- either all of the gods are 'true' (thus the question Zz and I were asking, its reasonable they could interfere with one another) or the 'truth' does not lie within a god, but within human apprehension.

Thank you, I bolded quotes that i want to responds to, and again thank you, this is exactly where this debate started from. It was all sparked from Paul's "vision" of the resurrected Christ. No one has acknowledged the possibility of a personal vision as a message from God, but i agree with what you said.

"I would expect it to tell me things I could not possibly know. I don't mean String Theory or lottery numbers, but just every day type stuff. A god would know much more than I do, and would ostensibly know what would be helpful to me (and what wouldn't be). I would expect it not to 'sound' anything like 'me'. Does a voice in one's mind have a 'sound'?" ~Hamsaka

If we look at Paul's experience, and take it not as a fabrication, this is exactly what Paul experienced. It gave him in-depth knowledge, not of winning lottery numbers, but of the Theology of Christ. This is exactly where this debate originated. This is why if you read my original post (i think # 6) i state that Paul might have been the one who received the evidence you are looking for from God. I said you guys should take the message seriously if that is the kind of experience you look to for evidence of God.

And i want to point out that your skepticism doesn't even hold for Paul.

"What tips the scales in the skeptical direction for me is the correlation between the cultural religion and the god this member of the culture hears from. We hear from the gods we know and not from the gods we've never heard of. Even Moses heard from a local god."~Hamsaka

This is why if you read 1 Corinthians 15, Paul specifically says he was converted as an "abnormally born". This is exactly where this debate originated and I'm glad we are getting to the bottom of this. This is precisely what Paul's testimony was and he was specifically chose by God to be witness to the gentiles, so i think we should take his testimony seriously if this is the kind of evidence from God in which you are looking for.