Where did God's creation get the idea to disobey/commit evil

[Hatuey]

In another thread, the participants are discussing whether Adam and Eve gained something or not, namely knowledge (from eating of the Tree of Good and Evil), and whether it seems like a sensible trade.

During that discussion, a member claimed that everything God created was created "good" including thinking beings like angels, Adam and Eve, and, apparently, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Now, supposedly according to most Christian thought, these beings were able to disobey or "sin" by utilizing their free will.

[I do not intend this thread to be about Free Will or the Problem of Evil. Please!]


The question of the thread is this:
Where did these allgood beings, created with no knowledge of sin or evil but only created with goodness get the idea to disobey or commit sin/"evil?"

The question works for the angels and Lucifer's revolt in heaven; the question works for Adam and Eve (especially since it's hard to imagine how they could commit a sin before they had the knowledge of good and evil that came from eating of the tree); the question works for "the Serpent" in the Garden.

And for the fun of it, let's assume that these createdallgood beings have the ability to witness sin and choose to commit it. Where would they witness sin in order to choose to do it? How/why would a createdallgood being choose to commit sin? Wouldn't the createdallgood being measure that nongood of sin against the only thing he knows/experiences with it allgoodfromGod and therefore not choose what is not allgoodfromGod?

[bluethread]

The concepts of good(tov) and evil(ra') refer to the relation of an action to what is approved of by Adonai. Adonai created humans with the ability to innovate. As long as that innovation was within the acceptable range, it was good(tov). However, if innovation occurs outside of the acceptable range it is evil(ra'). This is the basis of much science fiction. It warns against the consequences of various forms of innovation. The problem with requiring a precise explanation of how evil(ra') innovation occurred misses the point of the story. What is being discussed is comparative belief systems, not whether the fruit was an apple or a peach.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

Thank you for a sincere reply, but it does not approach the crux of the query as far as I can tell.

[1213]

And for the fun of it, let's assume that these createdallgood beings have the ability to witness sin and choose to commit it. Where would they witness sin in order to choose to do it? How/why would a createdallgood being choose to commit sin? Wouldn't the createdallgood being measure that nongood of sin against the only thing he knows/experiences with it allgoodfromGod and therefore not choose what is not allgoodfromGod?

Basically sin is to reject God. To do so, person must know God at some level. And those who reject God do it probably because they don’t like God or his will. Similarly, if you have tasted beans and didn’t like, you can reject them and say, no thanks, if they are offered to you.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 4 by 1213]

I don't see how that answers the question. I'm asking where an allgood creation would get the idea to do something nongood.

It's like saying God is pink and blue and everything he created was pink and blue and no other colors exist. Then somehow, beings who only know about pink and blue, without any other color existing, came up with a way to make orange. How?

[Ancient Paths]

[Replying to post 5 by Hatuey]

You say that you don't want this thread to be about free will or the problem of evil, but your question goes right to the heart of those very matters: where did evil come from if all that God created was good. In essence you're saying, "Answer my question about where evil came from without getting into where evil came from."

I may be off here, but I'm guessing that, by "allgood" you mean robotically good, as in impossible to do anything but good. I don't think that was the case at creation. In the last verse of Genesis 1 we read, "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good." I would posit that God created Adam and Eve with the capability to disobey him, for without the ability to choose to disobey him, we cannot have the ability to choose to love him. Since God desires our love, which takes form in obedience and requires free will, it was very good that he created Adam with the ability to choose good or evil, obedience or disobedience. To use your example, it is a very good thing that God created Adam with the ability to see blue, pink, and orange, although your analogy isn't entirely applicable to the creation account and the origin of evil.

I posit that your understanding of what it means to be "allgood" is your own understanding, which does not align with what God intended when he said that all of his creation was very good.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 6 by Ancient Paths]

I have no problem with your philosophy that you bring to bear.

My issue is with those who claim that God only created good but yet allowed evil toccur without explaining the mechanism. If you posit that God only knows and created good, then you must explain where evil comes from. You must not dodge the issue and use arrogance and insult to cover your inadequacies.

[Ancient Paths]

[Replying to post 7 by Hatuey]

I'm not saying that God only knows good; I'm saying that everything God created is good--not good as opposed to evil, but good being in accordance with God's purposes. Medicine isn't good in taste, but it's good for you. Assuming that God created all that was in the Garden of Eden, then God created evil. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, after all, and that was before any human existed. He could not have created it if he didn't know what evil is. The reality of duality: if God creates in our four-dimensional universe the quality of up, then by default he also creates down. If he creates cold, then hot is also be default created. It's a law of this four-dimensional space we inhabit.

"...dodge the issue...arrogance and insult to cover [my] inadequacies"??? I re-read my post and didn't see a single insult, and I certainly don't think anything I wrote was arrogant. You apparently read these qualities into what I wrote, as well as writing them into your own post rather blatantly. I hope we can stick to the subject here instead of following such rabbit trails.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 8 by Ancient Paths]

If I wasn't referring to you then....

If God is God, then isn't he the author of what is opposite of what? If he wanted to make the opposite of good crab scuttles, couldn't he?

[1213]

[Replying to post 4 by 1213]

I don't see how that answers the question. I'm asking where an allgood creation would get the idea to do something nongood.

Sorry, I understood that you were speaking of sin.