Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Post #321

Post by Danmark »

LilytheTheologian wrote: I'm not saying some martyrs are silly. The suicide bombers are just being silly. However, they WANT to die. It's suicide. The martyrs did NOT want to die.

My question, which you side-stepped, is what was their motivation? What motive could anyone have had for making up the Resurrection of Christ and Christianity?
I see. Your thesis is that martyrs from other religions are just being silly, but martyrs from the religion of your choice are noble and pure. Revealing. I did not 'sidestep' your question. I pointed out that sincerity of belief proves nothing about the truth of that belief.

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Post #322

Post by Zzyzx »

.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Dropship wrote:
Danmark wrote: ..We all know this stuff was made up gradually, to serve various traditions and church doctrines..
Can you be more specific mate and tell us exactly which traditions and doctrines?
As I keep asking, what on earth would have been peoples MOTIVES for "inventing" Christianity and getting themselves thrown to the lions?
I've been asking the same thing:
GMTA
LilytheTheologian wrote: Why would people "invent" a Resurrection that caused them more trouble than anything else, and cost most of them their lives?
Kindly verify / substantiate "cost most of them their lives" by citing references to the death of MOST "apostles" / promoters of early Christendom.
LilytheTheologian wrote: To sell a lot of books and become famous? (I'm joking, of course. People didn't buy books then because books - as we know them - weren't invented.
An alternative motivation might have been to gain influence. Can that be eliminated?
LilytheTheologian wrote: People didn't become famous for inventing a supernatural happening.
Joseph Smith? L. Ron Hubbard?
LilytheTheologian wrote: Why establish the early Church?
Why establish ANY church – tens of thousands. One path to fame and fortune is to become a religious leader.
LilytheTheologian wrote: Again, to be persecuted and martyred?
Is there evidence that people in the early Jesus Movement were "persecuted and martyred" for believing in a resurrection? Could they have been "persecuted and martyred" (executed) for opposing the existing hierarchies / power structure in Judaism and in Roman officialdom?
LilytheTheologian wrote: I don't think the apostles had a "death wish"
What one "thinks" is immaterial in reasoned debate.
LilytheTheologian wrote: since all but John hid after Jesus was arrested.
So goes the tale. Is there anything other than the tale itself to show that it is true?
LilytheTheologian wrote: There is no possible motive for what the disciples of Jesus did - post-Resurrection - other than the fact that Jesus was, indeed, God, and the Resurrection was true.
NO possible motive? Do you claim to have knowledge of all possible motives of people living 2000 years ago? Remarkable claim. Without evidence it is just another baseless claim.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #323

Post by Hatuey »

[Replying to post 314 by Dropship]

So; you're saying that if Christianity dies out in a few hundred years like the religions you mention, it will be false like those religions? That seems an odd argument to make.

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Post #324

Post by Dropship »

Danmark wrote: ..You're leaping from one logical fallacy to another..
Speaking of fallacies mate, you said Buddha claimed to be Son of God.
That's a new one on me, you'd better check your facts..;)

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Post #325

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Dropship wrote:
Danmark wrote: ..You're leaping from one logical fallacy to another..
Speaking of fallacies mate, you said Buddha claimed to be Son of God.
That's a new one on me, you'd better check your facts.
If one is actually concerned about facts perhaps it would be appropriate to check the accuracy of:

Long dead bodies coming back to life
Virgins being impregnated by spirits
The Earth ceasing rotation ("sun stood still" for hours)
The Earth being flooded "to the tops of mountains"
A star stopping over a specific location
Water magically turning into wine
Gospel writers being written by persons whose names they bear

Whether or not Buddha claimed to be "son of god" pales by comparison (and is immaterial to this debate).
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Post #326

Post by Dropship »

Zzyzx wrote: ..Water magically turning into wine..
Surely you don't believe in magic mate?
Think of it as "Superscience"..:)

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Post #327

Post by Danmark »

Dropship wrote:
Danmark wrote: ..You're leaping from one logical fallacy to another..
Speaking of fallacies mate, you said Buddha claimed to be Son of God.
That's a new one on me, you'd better check your facts..;)
Once again you are the one who needs to check his facts. I never said Buddha claimed to be the Son of God. You might want to reread my post. I listed him along with four other traditions that have similar 'Christlike' traditions' which include claims of 'SonofGodness.'
Here's another list that adds 5 more Christlike figures who predate Jesus.
http://in5d.com/10-christ-like-figures- ... ate-jesus/

There is simply nothing special about Christianity. Buddhism even has a tradition of the Bodhisattva, the one who achieves enlightenment and escapes the tragic wheel of life, yet sacrifices himself and returns to save mankind.

In Mahayana Buddhism, bodhisattva is the Sanskrit term for a being with bodhi (enlightenment). A bodhisattva is anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhicitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. A bodhisattva is one of the four sublime states a human can achieve in life (the others being an arhat, buddha or pratyekabuddha).

Usage of the term bodhisattva has evolved over time. In early Indian Buddhism, for example, the term bodhisattva was primarily used to refer specifically to Gautama Buddha in his former lives. The Jataka tales, which are the stories of the Buddha's lives, depict the various attempts of the bodhisattva to embrace qualities like self-sacrifice and morality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

BTW, Jesus did not personally claim to be the "Son of God" in the sense of being God incarnate. "Son of God" is a term that can be used to identify anyone who who worships God. The term "son of God" is sometimes used in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible to refer to those with special relationships with God. In the Old Testament, angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God." In the New Testament, Adam is called "son of God," while followers of Jesus are called, "sons of God." Jesus also frequently referred to himself as the "son of man."

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Post #328

Post by Dropship »

Hatuey wrote: So; you're saying that if Christianity dies out in a few hundred years like the religions you mention, it will be false like those religions? That seems an odd argument to make.
"IF" Christianity dies out?
It's been the biggest game on the park for 2000 years and is still going strong, so don't hold your breath waiting..:)
JC said- "My words will never pass away" (Matt 24:35)

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Post #329

Post by Dropship »

Danmark wrote: ..I never said Buddha claimed to be the Son of God. "
Here's what you said mate, seems clear enough to me-
Danmark wrote: ..Christianity only claims Jesus is the son of God.
The others? Too numerous to list all of them, but you can start with Hercules, son of Zeus; Augustus Caesar claimed to be the son of God; the Pharaohs; Alexander the Great.
Then there's
Horus
Buddha
Mithra
Osiris
Krishna
Incidentally here's Horus, and if he's the Son of God I'm Nanny MacPhee..:)
Image

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Post #330

Post by Danmark »

Dropship wrote:
Danmark wrote: ..I never said Buddha claimed to be the Son of God. "
Here's what you said mate, seems clear enough to me-
Danmark wrote: ..Christianity only claims Jesus is the son of God.
The others? Too numerous to list all of them, but you can start with Hercules, son of Zeus; Augustus Caesar claimed to be the son of God; the Pharaohs; Alexander the Great.
Then there's
Horus
Buddha
Mithra
Osiris
Krishna
Incidentally here's Horus, and if he's the Son of God I'm Nanny MacPhee..:)
Image
Looks ridiculous, preposterous, doesn't it? That is exactly how billions of people see the supernatural claims of all religious fundamentalists, including Muslims and their first cousins, Christians.

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