.
Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."
Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?
Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?
Does he have a valid point?
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Does he have a valid point?
Post #1.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #141[Replying to post 137 by Clownboat]
Brilliant thought experiment!! These sorts of scenarios that highlight the hypocrisy of God believers are what we, here, should spend our energy developing. Succinct "pictures" in 75 words or so that expose obviously wrong thinking.
Brilliant thought experiment!! These sorts of scenarios that highlight the hypocrisy of God believers are what we, here, should spend our energy developing. Succinct "pictures" in 75 words or so that expose obviously wrong thinking.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #142[Replying to post 137 by Clownboat]
Could you tell me please how many unborn human babies there are alive in the box?
TIA
Could you tell me please how many unborn human babies there are alive in the box?
TIA
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #143[Replying to post 139 by Hatuey]
I will answer Clownboats moral dilemma when I get the necessary clarification (see my post #140) but, with all due respect, I think that it's possible you may be displaying a bit of the cognitive bias of which theists are frequently accused.
You may like Clownboats thought experiment and think it brilliant because it affirms your existing worldview that one human can arbitrarily deem one human life valuable and another less so. But I read it with an entirely different bias.
Moreover, it possibly affirms your view that a woman can throw away as many unborn embryos as she likes.
Whereas in my theology, if it (truly) boils down to an unavoidable choice between the life of the mother or the life of her unborn baby, then it is not sinful to make either choice. Tossing a coin would settle the matter as far as that goes.
Clownboat alludes to a mother's exceptional love for her child (the three year old crying on one side of the room) but I'm not sure if that helps or harms the supposed brilliance of the thought experiment.
Why?
Because firstly, the child in the experiment represents the woman having an abortion who puts her welfare ahead of the 'de-humanised' faceless, nameless, worthless unwanted embryos whose welfare is secondary that of the pregnant woman - hence Roe vs Wade and abortion on demand.
So the experiment parallels the...'having an unwanted baby causes me suffering and who is more important...' pro-choice narrative.
Secondly, I'm not sure I can reconcile the inconsistency in Clowboats thought experiment - viz; mother loves her child so much! (Which I agree with) BUT those unborn babies in the hypothetical box on the hypothetical shelf have hypothetical mothers who care about them too! And my cognitive bias tells me that most mothers - given the choice between saving their own life or that of their child, would sacrifice themselves in a heartbeat!
I will answer Clownboats moral dilemma when I get the necessary clarification (see my post #140) but, with all due respect, I think that it's possible you may be displaying a bit of the cognitive bias of which theists are frequently accused.
You may like Clownboats thought experiment and think it brilliant because it affirms your existing worldview that one human can arbitrarily deem one human life valuable and another less so. But I read it with an entirely different bias.
Moreover, it possibly affirms your view that a woman can throw away as many unborn embryos as she likes.
Whereas in my theology, if it (truly) boils down to an unavoidable choice between the life of the mother or the life of her unborn baby, then it is not sinful to make either choice. Tossing a coin would settle the matter as far as that goes.
Clownboat alludes to a mother's exceptional love for her child (the three year old crying on one side of the room) but I'm not sure if that helps or harms the supposed brilliance of the thought experiment.
Why?
Because firstly, the child in the experiment represents the woman having an abortion who puts her welfare ahead of the 'de-humanised' faceless, nameless, worthless unwanted embryos whose welfare is secondary that of the pregnant woman - hence Roe vs Wade and abortion on demand.
So the experiment parallels the...'having an unwanted baby causes me suffering and who is more important...' pro-choice narrative.
Secondly, I'm not sure I can reconcile the inconsistency in Clowboats thought experiment - viz; mother loves her child so much! (Which I agree with) BUT those unborn babies in the hypothetical box on the hypothetical shelf have hypothetical mothers who care about them too! And my cognitive bias tells me that most mothers - given the choice between saving their own life or that of their child, would sacrifice themselves in a heartbeat!
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #144[Replying to post 140 by Lion IRC]
Three, all viable, but the 3 year old would be dead by now and probably the embryos as well. Should you be charged with one count of manslaughter or three counts? You were supposed to be honest.
Three, all viable, but the 3 year old would be dead by now and probably the embryos as well. Should you be charged with one count of manslaughter or three counts? You were supposed to be honest.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #145[Replying to post 141 by Lion IRC]
Nope. You should save the life of the many over the life of the one....according to your world view. Is that what you would do? Yes or no.
Nope. You should save the life of the many over the life of the one....according to your world view. Is that what you would do? Yes or no.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #146[Replying to post 141 by Lion IRC]
Question: Would you still toss a coin if the mother had a toddler at home and you had to choose between the mother and the embryo? Or would you choose the mother? All other things being equal.
Question: Would you still toss a coin if the mother had a toddler at home and you had to choose between the mother and the embryo? Or would you choose the mother? All other things being equal.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #147[Replying to post 144 by suckka]
The "mother issue" and the number of embryos are irrelevant. Red herring.
Do you save the lives of the many or the life of the one?
That's the only issue anti abortionists must answer. While they might be able to pontificate on the why and how and dodge and jive, it's their dilemma to resolve.
The "mother issue" and the number of embryos are irrelevant. Red herring.
Do you save the lives of the many or the life of the one?
That's the only issue anti abortionists must answer. While they might be able to pontificate on the why and how and dodge and jive, it's their dilemma to resolve.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #148Well if you're gonna make it up as you go and start adding in new factors whereby they all die, then I will too.suckka wrote: [Replying to post 140 by Lion IRC]
Three, all viable, but the 3 year old would be dead by now and probably the embryos as well. Should you be charged with one count of manslaughter or three counts? You were supposed to be honest.
I would pray and God would hear my prayer and save the 3 embryos and the child. So in fact they aren't really dead just unconscious from the smoke inhalation.
WAIT! So there's more than one human life in the room? All equally sacred. Hmmm.Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 141 by Lion IRC]
Nope. You should save the life of the many over the life of the one....according to your world view. Is that what you would do? Yes or no.
That kinda undermines Clownboats thought experiment about the low value of the unborn life.
In the 1930's there were people in Germany who would have no trouble making the exact same thought experiment substituting the word embryo for the word Jew.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #149[Replying to post 146 by Lion IRC]
I believe you changed the experiment drastically to try to fit a strictly abortion question instead of answering the question which was not about abortion it was about dehumanisation and added that the child and embryos had different mothers and then changed the characters to a mother and her unborn baby, You simply could have assumed all had the same mother or that you were the mother of all instead of putting up imaginary road blocks.
I believe you changed the experiment drastically to try to fit a strictly abortion question instead of answering the question which was not about abortion it was about dehumanisation and added that the child and embryos had different mothers and then changed the characters to a mother and her unborn baby, You simply could have assumed all had the same mother or that you were the mother of all instead of putting up imaginary road blocks.
Re: Does he have a valid point?
Post #150[Replying to post 146 by Lion IRC]
I like your answer. Maybe you could pray to God to end all abortions and leave him to it..
I like your answer. Maybe you could pray to God to end all abortions and leave him to it..
