How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[rikuoamero]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Garden of Eden scenario played out, then God is the one who made all the herbivores into carnivores. It's not like Adam and Eve sinned, then went around to all the animals and made them carnivores and the all powerful God is standing there helpless cringing and saying "Stop don't do that! Don't wreck my perfect creation!"
Seriously that's pretty much the only way it could have happened in that model. Either God changed all the animals and used Adam and Eve as an excuse, or you go for the "sin wrecked everything" but that means sin is at the very least equal in power to God.

[rikuoamero]

...

You're forgetting about all the curses he lumped on them to begin with and the ramifications of that curse to the rest of us. It's pretty malevolent stuff!

You missed the mark again: the serpent was cursed and maybe the wild animals were cursed but Adam and Eve were not cursed...they were punished. And it is a false theology which you don't believe in anyway to think that there were ramifications of his non-curse upon the rest of humanity. The man who sins, that man will die, suffer, be punished etc.

This is where your contradictions show. "Maybe the wild animals were cursed". In the OP, the animals were once herbivorous but then went carnivore. So why is it that God, after kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, if he's such a fair God, why would he point at the animals and make (some of) them carnivores, and have prey animals now suffering painful deaths at the claws and teeth of predators? What did the wild animals have to do with Adam and Eve eating the fruit?
Would you think it fair if after you ate cookies from the cookie jar, your parent performed genetic modifications on your pet hamster and made them into a carnivore?

[OnceConvinced]

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Garden of Eden scenario played out, then God is the one who made all the herbivores into carnivores. It's not like Adam and Eve sinned, then went around to all the animals and made them carnivores and the all powerful God is standing there helpless cringing and saying "Stop don't do that! Don't wreck my perfect creation!"
Seriously that's pretty much the only way it could have happened in that model. Either God changed all the animals and used Adam and Eve as an excuse, or you go for the "sin wrecked everything" but that means sin is at the very least equal in power to God.

Exactly. Which means that anyone who claims that sin is what sullied creation is kidding themselves. Sin cannot suddenly turn herbivores into carnivores, or harmless creatures into parasites or non-venomous creatures into venomous creatures. The only way this could happen that I can see is:

1) God turned them into these creatures as part of the curse
2) He created these things with flaws in them so that when sin entered everything became corrupted.

Number 1 shows malevolence. Number 2 shows malevolent design or at the very least incompetent design, ie God didn't realise that sin would corrupt everything and made no contingencies for such an eventuation.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to tam]

And who caused the fruit to have that effect if not God?

The fruit had no effect on anything - the eating against the command not to eat did have the effect of opening their eyes to their nakedness, the same word as the word used to describe the serpent's evil, cunning.

[ttruscott]

...

You're forgetting about all the curses he lumped on them to begin with and the ramifications of that curse to the rest of us. It's pretty malevolent stuff!

You missed the mark again: the serpent was cursed and maybe the wild animals were cursed but Adam and Eve were not cursed...they were punished. And it is a false theology which you don't believe in anyway to think that there were ramifications of his non-curse upon the rest of humanity. The man who sins, that man will die, suffer, be punished etc.

This is where your contradictions show. "Maybe the wild animals were cursed". In the OP, the animals were once herbivorous but then went carnivore. So why is it that God, after kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, if he's such a fair God, why would he point at the animals and make (some of) them carnivores, and have prey animals now suffering painful deaths at the claws and teeth of predators? What did the wild animals have to do with Adam and Eve eating the fruit?

I did not accept the op at all but rather gave my own answer... Why ask me about interpretations of the op???

I think the garden was populated with carnivores before they ate...and I disregard those who claim different. I was speaking to the claim A&E were judged but since I accept the animals were cursed I think all of them were cursed so it does not make sense that only some of them became carnivores, though I did watch a deer eat a baby bird that fell onto the lawn in front of it...even my dog won't do that.

Therefore the idea that the curse upon the animals is actually upon the evil spirits within the animals who are cursed by being animals, that is euphemistically "bound by chains of darkness," that is, a deep and abiding lack of spiritual awareness, has more sway (though not a lot) with me that their sudden conversion to eating meat when they left the garden.

[OnceConvinced]

Ted, I see you continue to have the audacity to post on my thread, even though you have blocked me (over a misunderstanding) and probably can't see any of the things I post here challenging your claims. You will probably not be able to read this, but I shall continue to respond to your posts anyway, so that others may see how your arguments are faulty.

[Replying to tam]

And who caused the fruit to have that effect if not God?

The fruit had no effect on anything - the eating against the command not to eat did have the effect of opening their eyes to their nakedness, the same word as the word used to describe the serpent's evil, cunning.

Please explain how disobeying a command of someone can suddenly make them become embarrassed about being naked?

[ecco]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. <snip>
Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering

There is a specific warning from god. There are various translations of this emphasis mine:

• New International Version
  but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
  
  New Living Translation
  except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."
  
  English Standard Version
  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.�

Some say "if", some say "when", some say "in the day".

Many christians believe god is omniscient. The "when" and "in the day" translations clearly indicate that god knew beforehand that A&E would partake of the forbidden fruit.

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

[tam]

[Replying to post 37 by ecco]

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail. But it can mean that you are able to make provisions beforehand, so that -despite your warnings and guidance to the person to avoid wrong choices that will bring them harm - the person cannot fail beyond recovery... and can instead LEARN from their failure, becoming stronger and wiser for it.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

...

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

This has some truth to this in the face of some orthodox Christianity but I contend that while it is true is was NOT TRUE from before their creation (which was not on earth) but only since their choice to reject by their free will the damnation of the eternally evil ones, those condemned already.

Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience will open their eyes to the sins they are not ashamed of and they can repent in shame...exactly what happened.

So rather than being the evil act you imply, it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ (wore the skin coats of redemption by HIS shed blood).

[rikuoamero]

...

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

This has some truth to this in the face of some orthodox Christianity but I contend that while it is true is was NOT TRUE from before their creation (which was not on earth) but only since their choice to reject by their free will the damnation of the eternally evil ones, those condemned already.

Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience will open their eyes to the sins they are not ashamed of and they can repent in shame...exactly what happened.

So rather than being the evil act you imply, it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ (wore the skin coats of redemption by HIS shed blood).

So then God's plan required evil and sin. Hmm...what does it say in your signature again?
What kind of law-giver is your god if the laws he gives us are designed and setup so that we purposefully fail? How can we be called sinners, or at fault for our "lack of obedience" when you've just ADMITTED that we could not obey!