Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Bump

Moderator Comment

If you wish to bump a post or thread to the top of the page, please make a substantive comment that others might be interested in seeing. "Bump" not only violates the rule against one-line posts, it's an artificial method of attracting interest.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 106 by KenRU]

Let's take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment ok? I doubt anyone would deny the good that these organizations do, but let's also identify the massive string that is attached to said charity- preaching that condoms are worse than aids.

In an aids riven country, teaching against the use of contraception is tantamount to stupidity as virtually every statistic shows abstinence programs fail miserably.

Any secular organization doing charitable works does so without said strings.

What you are talking about are Catholics in Africa mainly . This ideology , or train of thought has been changed , a bit too late , but no longer are the villagers told they would go to hell for using contraceptives . Not only is the aids the problem , so is over population , so your point is valid. The Catholic Church has since stopped this type of proselytizing , they have evolved . I have written on this before and share your view , which is how I know they have stopped this ignorance .

I state , that it is a bit too late.

Note that in my posts, that I state they still go even without being able to proselytize . The MSF (doctors without borders ) must remain secular and neutral , these doctors are recruited by a foundation that grew and was started from the Christian faith and a willingness to help selflessly , those who can not help themselves.

The problem is that I know of no secular group , that does not have ties to a Christian organization doing this work , at this level. The Christians actually pulled back the reins on themselves in the ME and Africa.

Your point about MSF would only stand if most or all of its members are religious. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few atheist doctors who go into the most extreme areas to help provide medical care.
MSF's founders were religious (in my brief search, I could only find information on one, who was Jewish), but what you've done there is a category error, extending the beliefs of the founders onto all of the members of the organization.

[Zzyzx]

.
Claims of church benevolence are put into proper perspective by noting that actual church budgeting allocated to benevolent causes (locally and internationally) is minuscule three percent (3%) while maintaining buildings and paying salaries accounts for the majority of expenses (82%).

http://web.archive.org/web/201410190332 ... yreports20

Those who claim great church benevolence in Africa might notice that region is one of the few regions where Christianity is growing rather than declining -- and wonder if there is any connection between "benevolence" and evangelizing / proselytizing / promoting / advertising.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 109 by Faithful One]

So an officially secular charity, doesn't count because it was either founded, or staffed by Christians? That's a rather tough requirement, given the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, doubly so if you focus on the richer countries in the world in position help. The willingness to help selflessly, those who can not help themselves, isn't a Christian monopoly.

[otseng]

Try reading my posts.

Yawn.

Moderator Warning


Comments like these would not be considered civil.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 105 by rikuoamero]

FO, your point is without merit. Even in the unlikely situation where there is no secular humanist charity, there is nothing preventing anyone from starting one. Christians DO NOT have a monopoly on charity. There are Hindu ones for example, or Muslim charities.

Heck, just look on this page
https://www.guidestar.org/nonprofit-dir ... ndu/1.aspx
Look to the left. It lists 80,000+ Christian charities, yes, I'll give you that, but that cannot be explained by saying "Oh, Christianity gives people morals" or something along those lines.

My point has been made . Crystal clear . With the exception of the MSF, whom are recruited by a Christian organization , not one has given me an example of another religious or secular group at the ground zeroes of the most horrific places on earth , more than the Christian is .

Your list is a moot point , this is not about fund raising , as I have already stated . This is about strength and fortitude to suffer for others common good., that if you asked each one where their strength came from, the undoubted answer would be their faith from each Christian . I even have a quote from one , that matched up with my exact point that I am making.

Then you state and I am paraphrasing here , "well they could start one ". Wow , really ?
Then you give a source , that is not even the point , that shows 80k Christian charities !?

The point here is about gaining strength by believing in your faith and growing and nurturing it , through selfless deeds , that most individuals would shudder just to think about doing, vs trying to prove events in the bible , or deny them as false . This would weaken your faith ,,not strengthen it.

This is not really about who has the most charities , it is about what is the predominate religion in these hell holes of the world that are sacrificing blood sweat and tears and where they say their strength comes from. The loss of faith would destroy the residuals of faith, then in turn more would suffer. Going all the way back to my beginning point , that Christianity would be moot without the basis of faith. i.e

Proof of God would take away the need for faith in the Christian religion. I have explained this in more detail at the beginning of my posts here .

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 106 by KenRU]

Let's take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment ok? I doubt anyone would deny the good that these organizations do, but let's also identify the massive string that is attached to said charity- preaching that condoms are worse than aids.

In an aids riven country, teaching against the use of contraception is tantamount to stupidity as virtually every statistic shows abstinence programs fail miserably.

Any secular organization doing charitable works does so without said strings.

What you are talking about are Catholics in Africa mainly . This ideology , or train of thought has been changed , a bit too late , but no longer are the villagers told they would go to hell for using contraceptives . Not only is the aids the problem , so is over population , so your point is valid. The Catholic Church has since stopped this type of proselytizing , they have evolved . I have written on this before and share your view , which is how I know they have stopped this ignorance .

I state , that it is a bit too late.

Note that in my posts, that I state they still go even without being able to proselytize . The MSF (doctors without borders ) must remain secular and neutral , these doctors are recruited by a foundation that grew and was started from the Christian faith and a willingness to help selflessly , those who can not help themselves.

I was unaware of both of your points above, and if true, retract my claim. You have given me something to learn more about, and I thank you for it.

I hope I am wrong, and you are right, on this issue.

all the best,

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 114 by Bust Nak]

So an officially secular charity, doesn't count because it was either founded, or staffed by Christians? That's a rather tough requirement, given the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, doubly so if you focus on the richer countries in the world in position help. The willingness to help selflessly, those who can not help themselves, isn't a Christian monopoly.

Once again, that is not the point as far just "charity". Please name the other organization, that is not affiliated with any Christian one , that is at ground zero in the most dangerous parts of the world .

The point really should focus on the strength gained and the fortitude Christians say their faith gives them, that is unmatched by any other faith, or any secular organizations.

I am willing to bet they do have close to a monopoly on who is volunteering in these areas , hands down , unless you can give me example of the other group next to them in the hospital, in the middle of a civil war , the battlefield , the malaria filled jungles , the deserts of the ME , among the most evil terrorist in the world , who besides those of the Christian faith are at ground zero , I'm these war torn parts of the world ?

We are 100% sure that Christians are there , through reports of their injury and deaths , but what other group , secular or of another religion is there ?

Please give me specific reference ,,not just who you think might be there.

We are kind of digressing away from the main point ,,but this point is being made also.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 103 by Clownboat]

What point are you trying to make?

Well , if you go back through my post on this thread , you can see the point in more detail , but the point I am making is that the search for proof , or concentrating on whether ones actually lived in a whale , fit example , takes way from the message of faith . Christians do not pick up the bible for proof , they pick it up to strengthen their faith, then one characterized this premise of saying, that these miracles that Christians say can not be proved , makes them weak, for saying it.

Quite the opposite is true , as I have shown here with example and quotes and source .

Quite the opposite is true indeed.
It was picking up the Bible and reading it from cover to cover that caused me to start questioning my beliefs. Churches can do a good job of putting specific ideas about god forth, for example, like 'god being love', or trinity beliefs, or no trinity beliefs and on and on.

What they don't do in my experience is allude to the evils that said god has done in said book. For the record, I feel genocide and slavery are evil. Your mileage may vary of course, but reading the Bible did not strengthen my faith. Your claim is false for me, and I assume I am not alone, so therefore your claim must be false.

Reading the Bible will either strengthen your faith, or destroy it as it did for me.

Faith is a silly concept anyways it seems. If you are capable of having faith, you could take that same faith and become a Muslim, or pick a religion. Faith does not lead to the Christian god, but is required to believe in any god concept.

Go faith!

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 116 by Faithful One]

Proof of God would take away the need for faith in the Christian religion, but it wouldn't take away conviction but enhance it. Whatever strength one gets from faith, would be doubled with a proof of God.

As for your secular charity that us active in dangerous places, what's wrong with Doctors without borders? You say it was founded by Christians and have strong ties with Christianity, sure, but it is also officially secular. Why shouldn't it count as secular group in the hospital, in the middle of a civil war, the battlefield, the malaria filled jungles, the deserts of the ME, among the most evil terrorist in the world, at ground zero, in these war torn parts of the world?