Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 112 by rikuoamero]

but what you've done there is a category error, extending the beliefs of the founders onto all of the members of the organization.

Not at all, the MSF works independently of religion and political agenda. I have stated this , just a few posts back. These doctors are recruited by a A foundation that was started from the Christian faith.

I also stated "with the exception of the MSF" above. They are still where they are due to the Christian faith , even if some are non believers , which I highly doubt , as one surely contemplates their mortality on their way to places as dangerous and volatile as these are . Kind of like the old saying ...

"There are no atheists in fox holes ".

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 105 by rikuoamero]

FO, your point is without merit. Even in the unlikely situation where there is no secular humanist charity, there is nothing preventing anyone from starting one. Christians DO NOT have a monopoly on charity. There are Hindu ones for example, or Muslim charities.

Heck, just look on this page
https://www.guidestar.org/nonprofit-dir ... ndu/1.aspx
Look to the left. It lists 80,000+ Christian charities, yes, I'll give you that, but that cannot be explained by saying "Oh, Christianity gives people morals" or something along those lines.

My point has been made . Crystal clear . With the exception of the MSF, whom are recruited by a Christian organization , not one has given me an example of another religious or secular group at the ground zeroes of the most horrific places on earth , more than the Christian is .

Your list is a moot point , this is not about fund raising , as I have already stated . This is about strength and fortitude to suffer for others common good., that if you asked each one where their strength came from, the undoubted answer would be their faith from each Christian . I even have a quote from one , that matched up with my exact point that I am making.

Then you state and I am paraphrasing here , "well they could start one ". Wow , really ?
Then you give a source , that is not even the point , that shows 80k Christian charities !?

The point here is about gaining strength by believing in your faith and growing and nurturing it , through selfless deeds , that most individuals would shudder just to think about doing, vs trying to prove events in the bible , or deny them as false . This would weaken your faith ,,not strengthen it.

This is not really about who has the most charities , it is about what is the predominate religion in these hell holes of the world that are sacrificing blood sweat and tears and where they say their strength comes from. The loss of faith would destroy the residuals of faith, then in turn more would suffer. Going all the way back to my beginning point , that Christianity would be moot without the basis of faith. i.e

Proof of God would take away the need for faith in the Christian religion. I have explained this in more detail at the beginning of my posts here .

Charity smerity!
I can show you Muslims that are willing to die for their faith. Treating the sick in these 'hell holes' you allude to does not compare to willfully dying for your beliefs.

Your argument is week. If it's not, I assume you must be struggling with becoming a Muslim. Can I guess that you are not and that you don't find this type of evidence convincing unless it is in an attempt to further your preferred religion?

Going by your standard here:
- Some Christians are willing to treat sick and injured in bad areas of the world.
- Some Muslims are willing to blow themselves up for their god.

Which religion is true if we use your standard here?

[PghPanther]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Mr. Z!!!

It could be that none of those questions are answered on here, because the evidence that is pointed to God, some give other credit to its origins. An example is creation. Creation points the evidence to God, but some give credit to (name your choice). God, does and is constantly working in my life, but some just say, "Hey, you would be the same person without Him." Knowing my life before Him, I know this is not true.

The following is an interesting article on Jesus. Most people did not read or write back then. The leaders of the Jewish church didn't much care for Jesus Why would they document something that threatened the church as they knew it?http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient ... an-sources.

I don't have time to look up more sources, but these questions really intrigue me. If Christianity was so far fetched, what accounts for historically billions of followers? Many people have claimed to have seen Heaven upon dying for a brief time, why are they similar experiences?

Millions or Billions of people following anything does not add any credence to it being true........what accounts for similar amounts of people thinking Islam or Hindu is truth based on your observation of Christianity?..........especially, when those claiming Christian have doctrines so diverse as to be heretical to the claims of each other? After all, there was a time when most humans believed the earth was flat and the sky was a dome pulled over it.

Oxygen starved brains create illusions which follow a similar physiology or vision that are you referring to as far as any "heaven" claims...........and that is what happens to the brain when it is dying, or during fainting, heart attack, stroke, etc.......nothing unusual there.

and besides, when there are claims of a specific vision by those that claim to have died and come back....why it is described in the terms of what they were taught within their culture rather than an overall consistent description of a heaven or faith independent from what someone was raised to believe in?

Your questions are not the result of your being critical but the result of being ignorant to the subject of your questions to begin with.

I suggest that before you assume a supernatural explanation is the truth behind something you wonder about........... that you first examine a possible natural cause prior to jumping to such a supernatural conclusion so fast...........humans and culture have been doing this since earthquakes, volcanoes and lightening have been around and they were always wrong at assuming there was a supernatural personal agency behind such events................

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 112 by rikuoamero]

but what you've done there is a category error, extending the beliefs of the founders onto all of the members of the organization.

Not at all, the MSF works independently of religion and political agenda. I have stated this , just a few posts back. These doctors are recruited by a A foundation that was started from the Christian faith.

I also stated "with the exception of the MSF" above. They are still where they are due to the Christian faith , even if some are non believers , which I highly doubt , as one surely contemplates their mortality on their way to places as dangerous and volatile as these are .

I'm confused. Are you conceding that Doctors Without Borders is a secular organization (made up of people with various religious affiliations) and is a good answer to your challenge?

If not, you should probably reconsider. Just a quick look at its charter from its website shows (emphasis mine):

MSF provides assistance to populations in distress, to victims of natural or man-made disasters, and to victims of armed conflict. They do so irrespective of race, religion, creed, or political convictions.

MSF observes neutrality and impartiality in the name of universal medical ethics and the right to humanitarian assistance and claims full and unhindered freedom in the exercise of its functions.

Members undertake to respect their professional code of ethics and maintain complete independence from all political, economic, or religious powers.

Sorry, but that last line in their charter makes it a secular organization, regardless of who founded it. To me, it seems they are making a point to show how secular their organization really is.

See for yourself: http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/ab ... es/charter

Kind of like the old saying ...

"There are no atheists in fox holes ".

Sure there are. Here's proof:
http://www.quora.com/What-do-atheists-t ... n-foxholes

[Zzyzx]

.

Kind of like the old saying ...

"There are no atheists in fox holes ".

Like many old sayings that has been shown to be demonstrably FALSE. However, "Defenders of the Faith" still parrot it as though it somehow verified their beliefs.

http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are ... n_foxholes
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyth ... oxhole.htm

Is presenting false information a valid defense / promotion / justification for religious beliefs?

Is it honorable to "Falsify for Jesus"?

[PghPanther]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 245#736245]Replying to post 101 by Hamsaka[/

Simply type 'secular humanitarian organizations' in your search bar, there are too many to even link to. They check all the boxes, including the jaws of danger (Doctors Without Borders, especially).

I can't help it, that takes the cake. You so easily could have checked your facts before you wrote that.

O.k , show me just one or two who are with the people in the ME , actually with the people in the towns , please show me this secular organization , that has no Christian ties to it. Doctors without borders was started by a Christian organization.

I am talking the ones who are on the trenches , not secular fund raising groups , be real. This is about strength and fortitude , not soliciting for donations. So please show me one secular aid group that is ground zero , in the deepest darkest jungles, or in towns in the ME actually helping .

I would be willing to bet most of the doctors in the MSF are Christian. My point is that it is mainly Christians you will find helping in the most dangerous parts of the world. I highly doubt there is an atheist in the bunch , of doctors without borders.

Who do you think recruited the doctors for doctors without borders ? Let me tell you again , , it was a Christian organization , their method is to interact independent of religion , or politics , or any other agenda , this was started by a Christian Organization, the most helpful in the world at that .

Christians have a lock on volunteering to help others on the most dangerous parts of the world . I have also shown you a quote from one of them , that states faith is what keeps them strong , should Zyxx have his way , there would be no need for faith , a point I have already made to you. The residuals of faith I mentioned fall right in line with the self sacrifice that we are speaking of here , that Christians are most prevalent at. This is not even arguable really.

What does any of this have to do with the question posed on this thread?

I don't care if Christians are the most noble or the most evil people on the planet.......that in no way (and for that matter Hindus, Muslims or any other followers of faith) validates whether what inspires them to do what they do is true or not............

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 112 by rikuoamero]

but what you've done there is a category error, extending the beliefs of the founders onto all of the members of the organization.

Not at all, the MSF works independently of religion and political agenda. I have stated this , just a few posts back. These doctors are recruited by a A foundation that was started from the Christian faith.

I also stated "with the exception of the MSF" above. They are still where they are due to the Christian faith , even if some are non believers , which I highly doubt , as one surely contemplates their mortality on their way to places as dangerous and volatile as these are . Kind of like the old saying ...

"There are no atheists in fox holes ".

MSF was started by at least one Christian, yes. I'll give you that. Yes, you recognise that not all MSF staff are Christians. Doesn't that then mean that the act of charity, especially in dangerous warzones and other dangerous areas, is NOT restricted to Christians? Is your point to say that Christians and only Christians do war-zone charity?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 121 by Faithful One]

"There are no atheists in fox holes "

Do you really think our intelligence is that low that we'd fall for that? Do you honestly believe there are no atheist soldiers, or atheist doctors, or atheist paramedics or atheist whoevers in warzones or disaster areas?

WHY is it you seem to think charity is a monopoly of Christianity?

[PghPanther]

As far as all this charity activity validating a faith world view...........

Hamas is involved in the building of hospitals, schools and other social support systems for victims of bombing attacks by Jews...............so does this validate their Islamic belief as true?

[rikuoamero]

Faith is vitally important because it shows a belief in the word of God without being provided physical evidence of a God. This belief in the message of salvation creates devotion to God. Devotion to God is a necessity for salvation. Faith assures sincerity. Sincerity is another vital component for salvation.

I'd like to get back to this quote from Faithful One. Here's the problems I see with it
The 'word of God' we're supposedly being told to believe in (I presume I can call the 'word of God' a category and say that the claim 'Jesus rose from the dead 3 days after dying' is in that category, correct?).
That little paragraph does not say anything as to whether the 'word of God' (Jesus rose from the dead) actually be true, be an actual event that happened in history. Just that we are supposed to believe it.
Supposedly, God requires devotion from humans. Why? Does God require servants? I know of one user on this site who signs his comments as "a slave for Christ". The thought of an infinite being requiring devotion boggles my mind. Is God somehow not perfect, somehow incomplete unless all humans are devoted to him?
Another problem I have with this 'word of God' (as outlined above) is that it teaches us to disregard rationality, and empiricism. So this, supposedly the highest good one can do, is to be arrived at just by believing something with no verification? It's been said before and I'll say it again - it doesn't make sense to teach that God gives humans brains and then teaches/commands us to not make use of them.
Faith does not ensure sincerity. I've talked to many a Christian who says they have proof/evidence for God. All right, whenever I've talked to them, their evidence doesn't hold up to review, but they still feel that they're Christian, that the evidence only helps support their faith. These Christians were no less fervent in their religious beliefs.

Basically, that paragraph reads to me like "God wants/requires humans to believe his word, and that word does not have to be true. He will only allow salvation for those humans who are gullible enough to believe this word".
Sorry Faithful One but you are not the decider here. Like I said, I cannot believe that you have the correct understanding of faith and God here. I can go to other Christians and tell them what you said, and they will say that you are wrong. Who am I to believe?