Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[tam]

Peace to you all!

Okay, so I asked a bit earlier about what kind of thing would qualify as verifiable evidence, but it was a tiny post that perhaps was quickly lost in all the rest.



So I will just respond with what I understand.


If you leave out testimony, writings, I forget what else was left out in the OP... one is still left with Christ as the verifiable evidence.

I do not mean the story about Him. I don't even mean the testimonies about or to Him... either what is written or those that people give today, including my own. Those are testimonies that say 'Yo, He is alive, He speaks. And you don't have to take my word for it, you can go to Him yourself, and then you will know Him for yourself."

But Christ, Himself, is evidence that He exists... and that His Father exists... just as you are evidence that you exist. So that those who know Him, truly know Him, have verifiable evidence for their faith.

Faith is not a wish and a hope. Faith is KNOWING, based upon evidence, and upon what is HEARD. Not heard just from other people, but heard from the Spirit Himself.



So... I do not know if that qualifies on this thread as verifiable evidence or not. And there are certainly people who have stated openly that they would not believe Christ was speaking to them even if they did have a road to Damascus moment like Saul.


The other kind of verifiable evidence at least with regard to Christ... that I think is being referred to or requested... is that everyone would hear (or see) Him together. That evidence is coming. When every eye will see Him, after He returns.


In the meantime, I guess what we have could be called 'individual verification'.


Other than that....


Sometimes what we have discovered through science has verified something that is written. (or that has been heard in the spirit) For instance, for a long time scientists held that the universe was eternal, when what is written in Genesis from long ago, states that the universe had a beginning. The evidence of the Big Bang verified that.


Then there are kernels of truth that are corroborated in other cultures across time. For instance, the Egyptians buried their dead under the altar (pyramids) with their belongings, because they believed in an earthly resurrection. In Revelation, the dead in Christ go under the altar to await the first resurrection. The second resurrection is the one that the Egyptians were waiting for mind you.

The Chinese have dragons guarding the Temple; and consider (or at least once considered) dragons to be celestial beings. The way to the Tree of Life is guarded by a seraph (angel), which is a dragon/serpent/fiery flying being.

Serpents/dragons... are written throughout many cultures as being celestial or spiritual or 'gods', etc. Quetzalcoatl for the mayans, the gargoyls that guard churches, the dragons with regard to the temples, etc. The copper serpent that Moses held up in the desert.

Depictions and descriptions and legends and myths about these beings are spread throughout cultures over time. Yes, the kernel of truth became surrounded by lies, because that is what religions and men DO. They take a bit of truth, and due to their own misunderstandings (or corruption of certain men), surround that truth with legends, lies, false understanding, etc... creating a man-made religion that confuses and misleads. That is what religion does. Makes people captive to men, to lies, to the one who gives religion its authority. I digress...


But that these are elements that are spread throughout so many cultures and peoples in various times and places... well, it is at least food for thought. It is evidence other than testimony, the bible (the other things I can't remember that were listed in the OP)


I find it fascinating.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 141 by tam]

But Christ, Himself, is evidence that He exists... and that His Father exists... just as you are evidence that you exist. So that those who know Him, truly know Him, have verifiable evidence for their faith.

You are incorrect. If you want to talk about Christ and evidence for him in the same vein as me and the fact that I am here talking to you being evidence that I exist, you have to recognise the fact that with me, anyone can read what I write, or better yet, meet me in person. There is nothing stopping you or anyone from coming up to me in real life and going "Yup, you exist. Can I shake your hand?"
You say we can do the same with Christ, but no, we cannot. I have tried it many times, only for nothing to happen.

Faith is not a wish and a hope. Faith is KNOWING, based upon evidence, and upon what is HEARD. Not heard just from other people, but heard from the Spirit Himself.

You'll want to talk with ttruscott and other people who say different. They say faith does not rely upon evidence. I agree. Faith is a belief in something sans evidence. I've also talked quite extensively here on this site about what I think about the concept of listening to the Holy Spirit. I started an entire thread over it.

So... I do not know if that qualifies on this thread as verifiable evidence or not.

...you just literally said, a few lines above, that this IS verifiable evidence! You sounded so sure in that sentence. Now you're not so sure? Why?

And there are certainly people who have stated openly that they would not believe Christ was speaking to them even if they did have a road to Damascus moment like Saul.

Yup, because I and others are aware that visions a la Saul can have many possible and plausible explanations. Why, if I suddenly see a bright light, should I leap to the conclusion that it MUST be the one true God? What if I am hearing a spirit entity of some sort but it's not God, but a demon meant to trick me? What if I've gone mad? Or I'm ill? You are aware are you not, that in Paul's writings, he describes his vision after a THREE DAY FASTING AND ILLNESS?
You're asking us not to believe in Jesus, but to believe that Paul is being truthful here. Well, Paul's been dead for 2,000 years. His stories of seeing a god are unverifiable, just like all the other people throughout history who claim to have seen a god. His story is just one among many. There's nothing about it that makes it stand out from the rest.

The other kind of verifiable evidence at least with regard to Christ... that I think is being referred to or requested... is that everyone would hear (or see) Him together. That evidence is coming. When every eye will see Him, after He returns.

Unless that happens, I will not believe. Why are you so quick to believe sans this evidence?

states that the universe had a beginning. The evidence of the Big Bang verified that.

Notice you say A beginning, not THE beginning. The Big Bang Theory only states there was a beginning of the universe in it's current form. The BBT does not confirm Genesis, does not say it was THE beginning, that there weren't other universes before it. It is entirely plausible that the universe has gone through and will always go through an eternal cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches (like a balloon you blow up, let the air out, then blow up again ad infinitum)

Then there are kernels of truth that are corroborated in other cultures across time

I notice here you mention nothing of other cultures that had beliefs completely dissimilar to yours. What say you to that?

Yes, the kernel of truth became surrounded by lies, because that is what religions and men DO. They take a bit of truth, and due to their own misunderstandings (or corruption of certain men), surround that truth with legends, lies, false understanding, etc... creating a man-made religion that confuses and misleads. That is what religion does. Makes people captive to men, to lies, to the one who gives religion its authority. I digress...

And yet, somehow, for some weird reason, you think your religion is the one true religion, that everyone else in all other religions got at least part of it wrong? Your religion confuses and misleads too, or is it arbitrarily exempted from that?

[beeswax]

Greeting Tam.

You said that Genesis said the universe had a beginning as though that was in some ways prove something? Sorry but any writer would have said that...In the beginning is a classic fairy tale prologue.

Many people have asked God or Christ to show them they exist. Or to reveal themselves and no answer is what they all say. You make the point that God and Jesus are as real as we are as again some kind of 'evidence'? Sorry but that is just wishful thinking. We can VERIFY another person by looking at them or speaking with them while looking into the whites of their eyes. We don't need 'faith' to do that. The evidence is verifiable to 'everyone'. Not so God or Jesus and I speak as someone who believes in a Creator God but not the biblical one that is made in man's image and uses that God to do evil things.

You have made a claim repeatedly that Jesus speaks to you and verifies things to you. Can you explain how that process works please? Is it just an 'inner' voice that you 'think' Jesus is speaking to you, indeed just has Paul said and others say. I have never heard Jesus or God speaking and looking up bible text or it just happens to open due to a breeze doesn't count. Its why I say we underestimate the power of God because IF he wanted to, he could indeed speak to anyone in a voice that others can hear and he could appear at our side or write a message on our bedroom wall etc etc. Maybe he does all these things with you?

Lastly, its a repeated claim by Christians that when Jesus comes back 'everyone' will see him and 'everyone' will bow and that the name of a fabulous Christian hymn we all know..'At the name of Jesus'!

I have thought about exactly HOW could every single person see Jesus when half the world is in day and half the world is night at the SAME time. How can 'everyone' see him if they are asleep and in bed or on the toilet or underground in a mineshaft or in a Submarine? I'm a practical Engineer see and try to figure these things out?

Maybe Jesus has revealed to you HOW this can happen?

As a Deist, I can believe in a Creator God but no human being that claimed to be God or Son of God who had special powers in order to convert the world. Because WHY aren't those same powers available to anyone since and no miracles like he did since? Jesus said "Greater things ye shall do, than I have" including raising the dead, remember and so its a fair question to ANYONE that believes Jesus can't tell a lie. How come nobody in living memory or in the last 1950 years did ANY of those miracles as promised by Jesus? Or is should that be filed with his promise that the end of the world was coming in THAT generation, when the Sun stops and the stars fall from the sky etc?

Sorry, but Christians just cannot get out of these questions with a "He must have meant something different and we mis interpreted it" Its either the truth or its a lie. Logic and reason dictates it cannot be both. So what other lies were told? End of the world soothsayers make all sorts of claims and none have ever been true.

Answers please if you will be so kind..

Mike

[tam]

Quote:
So... I do not know if that qualifies on this thread as verifiable evidence or not.

...you just literally said, a few lines above, that this IS verifiable evidence! You sounded so sure in that sentence. Now you're not so sure? Why?

No. I do not know if Zzyzx (or anyone else who would ask the same as the OP) will consider that to be verifiable evidence.

Quote:
The other kind of verifiable evidence at least with regard to Christ... that I think is being referred to or requested... is that everyone would hear (or see) Him together. That evidence is coming. When every eye will see Him, after He returns.

Unless that happens, I will not believe. Why are you so quick to believe sans this evidence?

Because I already hear Him and know Him.

I heard truth in what He said, I followed Him out of love, when I heard from someone else that He speaks, I a) saw that indeed He is supposed to speak, as any living being does, and others wrote down their testimony that He did speak to them, then b) asked to hear Him also. So that I would hear and know what I could do to serve Him.


So that His words as written here were proven true - verified - to me:

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with(in) them."


So I did what He said, and received what was promised.


Verified. Not to you perhaps, though it is a witness to you. But verified to me, yes.


You have already said that it won't mean anything to you to hear Christ... so what point in speaking to you is there? Just to scare you? Make you think that you are crazy?

He does not do that.

I notice here you mention nothing of other cultures that had beliefs completely dissimilar to yours. What say you to that?

I never said it because it was not relevant. What evidence is there to corroborate some things... is what the question of the OP asked.

Quote:
Yes, the kernel of truth became surrounded by lies, because that is what religions and men DO. They take a bit of truth, and due to their own misunderstandings (or corruption of certain men), surround that truth with legends, lies, false understanding, etc... creating a man-made religion that confuses and misleads. That is what religion does. Makes people captive to men, to lies, to the one who gives religion its authority. I digress...

And yet, somehow, for some weird reason, you think your religion is the one true religion, that everyone else in all other religions got at least part of it wrong? Your religion confuses and misleads too, or is it arbitrarily exempted from that?

I was not differentiating one religion from another. The religion of Christianity has a lot of lies. We can see this just from the conflicting claims between differing sects, never mind the claims that most of them agree upon, but that conflict with Christ.


Christ is not a religion. Men built a religion around Him. But it is not from Him.


Peace again.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 135 by Zzyzx]

Correction: Many individuals, corporations, nations, and international organizations (such as UNICEF) sponsor on-site help in dangerous parts of the world

This does not put them at ground zero where we are 100% sure that the Christians are there . So I will ask you , the same as others who had no answer , what group is by their side in these war torn cities hospitals in the middle of a civil war? What other group or religion is with them in the malaria filled jungles ? What other group or individual or religion are with them in the badlands of the ME ?

I do not know of any, or else I would name them.

There has been no specific answer of any individual group , we have the MSF in certain circumstances, but that was grown from a Christian organization. So can we name another besides this group ? That probably is at least 70% Christian anyhow.

[tam]

[Replying to post 145 by Faithful One]

Peace to you Faithful One.

I think that what you are asking for does not mean as much as you might think. Now if I missed the point somewhere back in the thread that brought this on, I apologize.

But it does not matter if a group is mostly Christian, or some Christian, or founded by Christian. The point is that there are atheists doing the same work, risking their lives and their health to help others, due to the love in their hearts for their fellow man. And the atheist has no safety net (no hope of a resurrection, even though they will receive one), so in some/many/most cases, it is solely because the law (of love) is written upon their hearts.

(A Christian can be motivated by that same thing mind you, as well as love for God, regardless of whether they hope for a resurrection or not. Just wanted to make that clear before anyone speaks negatively about the motives of a Christian doing the same thing)



I may have missed the point that brought you and others to this conversation, of course. But in case I did not, the above may be some food for thought on this matter.


Love motivates people to do such things. And a Christian - even a true Christian - does not have a monopoly on love.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

"There are no atheists in fox holes ".

You mean like there are no Christians in an emergency waiting room at a hospital?

I don't know why Christians keep using that quote which has been shown to be false on many occasions. It makes absolutely no sense to cry out to something you don't believe it. In fact if you cried out to God in a fox hole it means you're not actually an Atheist.

Anyway, if you think you're about to die some people will do or say anything out of sheer desperation. It's perfectly understandable. However when a Christian relies on emergency services, doctors and nurses to save their loved ones, they show their severe lack of faith in their god.

[H.sapiens]

...

What religion do you think are the ones who go into the deepest darkest jungles are , to bring ones antibiotics , and needs to keep them healthy and a live .

How many atheists are traipsing through the jungle to do this ? Not many. There are many Christian aid groups in the ME, many have lost their lives . How many " atheist aid groups " are in the ME ? I'm guessing zero. These missionaries and aid groups most of the time can not even proselytize, without risking jail or death . They go right into the jaws of danger to help , knowing they can nit spread the word . You will find no other religion as prevalent as Christians as far as helping the needy.

I've been in those jungles. I worked for USAID for years, in both South East Asia and in Central America. That's not a "Christian" organization and we were helping in really scary places, doing things that would cause you to soil your Christian small clothes, and in all that time I never heard any of my coworkers praying, lots of atheists in those "foxholes."

[H.sapiens]

I would be willing to bet most of the doctors in the MSF are Christian. My point is that it is mainly Christians you will find helping in the most dangerous parts of the world. I highly doubt there is an atheist in the bunch , of doctors without borders.

That's a bet you'd lose. I've been there, I've done the real thing. Have you, or is this just a classic case of windbag self-inflation?

Who do you think recruited the doctors for doctors without borders ? Let me tell you again , , it was a Christian organization , their method is to interact independent of religion , or politics , or any other agenda , this was started by a Christian Organization, the most helpful in the world at that .

Once again, you're way off base. You need to get you facts straight before you shoot off your mouth. When I was elected a fellow of the Explorers Club my cohort was treated to some sage advice about the club by Sir Edmund Hillary. Amongst critical information such as were the bathrooms and exits were, was the suggestion that we be very careful what claims we make about where we have been (at least when in the clubhouse) because the odds are that someone in the room had been there too. That's rather good advice for you to heed. Here are the facts:

Secular groups such as Doctors Without Borders say they are careful to delineate their work from Christian aid groups ...

"There's a suspicion that we are all in the same pot, so we're very clear about making a distinction," said Brice de la Vigne, the Doctors Without Borders operational coordinator for Afghanistan

Amid the Parisian upheavals of May 1968, a group of young doctors decided to go and help victims of wars and major disasters. This new brand of humanitarianism would reinvent the concept of emergency aid. They were to become Mdecins Sans Frontires (MSF), known internationally in English as Doctors Without Borders.

After the revolt of May '68 burst onto their black and white TV screens, the French public soon saw other, more frightening images. For the first time, television broadcasted scenes of children dying from hunger in remote corners of the world.

In southern Nigeria, the province of Biafra had seceded. This minuscule territory was surrounded by the Nigerian army and the Biafran people were decimated by famine. The French Red Cross issued an appeal for volunteers.

Medics in Emergencies
For a number of years, Max Recamier and Pascal Greletty-Bosviel"volunteer doctors with the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Geneva"had been regularly intervening in armed conflicts.

"Contrary to popular belief, the Red Cross is not a medical organization at all," says Max Recamier. "Pascal and myself were the only two doctors they knew because of our previous mission in Yemen, so they asked us to find some doctors for the ICRC. The first one to volunteer was Bernard Kouchner, who was much younger than I was; he was just finishing his studies and hadn't even finished his thesis yet, but he volunteered to go over there."

A team of six set off on the ICRC mission to Biafra: two doctors"Max Recamier and Bernard Kouchner"as well as two clinicians and two nurses. Being thrown into such a bloody conflict was a real shock for these fledgling doctors, who found themselves having to provide war surgery in hospitals that were regularly targeted by the Nigerian armed forces.

Both my parents are physicians and atheists, they both volunteered a great deal of time to work in areas of conflict including South East Asia, the West Bank and Haiti. I know many other physicians who volunteer in similar ways and frankly, most are agnostics or atheists or jews, very few Christians, and they tend to be Friends or Unitarian Universalists.

Christians have a lock on volunteering to help others on the most dangerous parts of the world . I have also shown you a quote from one of them , that states faith is what keeps them strong , should Zyxx have his way , there would be no need for faith , a point I have already made to you. The residuals of faith I mentioned fall right in line with the self sacrifice that we are speaking of here , that Christians are most prevalent at. This is not even arguable really.

What patent crap ... it is an insult to all those who do the hard work for humanity with no expectation of reward, in this life or any other, with no motive other than helping.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 144 by tam]

I never said it because it was not relevant. What evidence is there to corroborate some things... is what the question of the OP asked.

It is relevant. You can't go around saying "These things that all the other cultures have, because they have them and my culture has them, that verifies my culture's beliefs". You have to look at the opposite claim too. What if it's their dis-similarities that dis-proves your culture/religion/belief? You didn't consider that.
The Roman pantheon of gods is a blatant rip-off of the Greek pantheon. Does that mean that if I should meet a follower of Jupiter, he'd be correct in saying "Because the Greeks have Zeus, who is virtually identical to Jupiter, that means Jupiter exists!"?

You also didn't look at it the other way. What if it's the similarity Christianity has with Islam that proves that it's Allah with his last prophet, Muhammed, correct?
These things don't just go one way.