Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 171 by Hamsaka]



This is the main beginning point , that you seem to not get. Where does this say "all", or "only ", or "solely" ?

Faithful one wrote ....

O.k , show me just one or two who are with the people in the ME , actually with the people in the towns , please show me this secular organization , that has no Christian ties to it. Doctors without borders was started by a Christian organization.

I am talking the ones who are on the trenches , not secular fund raising groups , be real. This is about strength and fortitude , not soliciting for donations. So please show me one secular aid group that is ground zero , in the deepest darkest jungles, or in towns in the ME actually helping .

I would be willing to bet most of the doctors in the MSF are Christian. My point is that it is mainly Christians you will find helping in the most dangerous parts of the world. I highly doubt there is an atheist in the bunch , of doctors without borders.

Note , that has "no Christian ties to it ", this is where you are not getting it , accusing me of saying "only Christians", when the challenge was to show one organization helping out with no Christian ties , not an organization that is not secular ,not just fund raising, that is at ground zero .


These are made clear here . Then you say I should cede a point that you created in your own mind ?

I think not Hamsaka.

I will cede this particular point; that I said you made absolute statements, ie, ALL humanitarian organizations are Christian, ALL individuals braving the bullets and jungle viruses are Christians.

Now it is up to you to provide evidence for your original claims, though I don't see how you can without performing unique research of your own with the available data.

Your debate tactics are clearly disingenuous, as evidenced by continuous goal-post shifting; for example, your original claim did not state or even imply the following most recent shifting of the goals:

Note , that has "no Christian ties to it ", this is where you are not getting it , accusing me of saying "only Christians", when the challenge was to show one organization helping out with no Christian ties , not an organization that is not secular ,not just fund raising, that is at ground zero .

It has been made clear (to the readers, if not you) that there are active secular humanitarian organizations, of which the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, and UNICEF are examples. Claims that any secular organization that were founded by theists (of whatever sort, often some sect of the Christian religion) does not support your point, which was that MOST ALL of the organizations in the trenches ARE Christians/Christian-derived. Again, the reader(s) are free to note where you refuse to modify your original claims based on facts provided to you.

Ceding my claim that you used 'absolutist' words and implications is relevant, but hardly worth ceding the refutations of all members here who provided factual information refuting your original claim. Again, the reader(s) are free to note the facts provided, and determine if this argument hinges upon the use of 'absolute' terms, or not. You and I have discussed/debated many things, and if you have ever ceded or openly, with acknowledgment of your error, modified your position, I missed it. You are free to maintain your erroneous claims, and the consequences.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 173 by Hamsaka]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

Faith-based foreign aid refers to the international development and relief-related spending and activities of religious or religiously motivated organizations, and the government financial and political support of those organizations.

For centuries, Western religious groups, who often accompanied and financed early explorers, colonists and conquerors, also contributed money and services to help people in need around the world. Today, many so-called faith-based nongovernment organizations, or NGOs, exist to provide development or disaster-relief services in developing countries, often with significant backing from the taxpayer dollars of Western donor governments.

Critics question the mingling of economic, health, or other types of aid with the motivation of religious development groups, nearly all of which are Christian, often seeking conversions and threatening indigenous beliefs and cultural practices. Defenders credit Christian development and missionary groups for reaching people like no other groups can, due to historical networks, such as Africa's churches, and providing top quality services, often in health and education. Some, however, consider faith-based foreign aid to be a modern-day extension of religious colonialism, with morality often dangerously mixed with critical development concerns, especially global health education, prevention and treatment of infectious diseases, economic security and other issues.

"Nearly all of which are Christian " !

Will you deny wiki , that seems to be accepted here in this forum. Even wiki agrees with me.

Now that you understand the point properly and have been shown how these " secular " organizations are tied mainly to the Christians , do you still refute that Christians are the premier volunteers of the world , when it comes to the impoverished and downtrodden and war ridden people , as far as staying the course with them through decades and centuries .

The bible is the sole source of this strength , which creates faith , the residuals of faith help the world , providing strength and the fortitude to accomplish these missions that are prevalent on every continent.

Do you still deny this ?!

[/b]

[tam]

I'm not sure, but I do not think most people are objecting to more organizations being Christian. I think that must be true. In my city, the two biggest homeless shelters are the mustard seed and the hope mission. The organization helping homeless teens, however, is secular.

Of course if we are going to be fair, then 'christians' have also caused more harm in the world than atheists.


I think people are objecting more to comments like this:

I would be willing to bet most of the doctors in the MSF are Christian. My point is that it is mainly Christians you will find helping in the most dangerous parts of the world. I highly doubt there is an atheist in the bunch , of doctors without borders.... Faithful One

I don't think you can support these claims.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 179 by Faithful One]

nome have yet to show me the individuals who are there in the trenches with the Christians in these dangerous places. I still wait your example.

What? You want us to go through MSF or Red Cross's staff records, interview the staff and ask each one of them "Are you Christian, or are you atheist?"?
You seem to think that the origins of the organisations is enough. I and others are disagreeing. The founders of MSF and Red Cross and all those other groups could have been the most devout Christians imaginable, but that doesn't mean anything for the members today. MSF was founded in the 60s or 70s. An atheist doctor who joins up TODAY has nothing at all to do with the beliefs of the founders of MSF - how many times do I have to repeat this? That doctor will be in the warzones and disaster areas, helping people, and he won't be there because of any faith.

I also have to say...you're not quoting me here. Those parts you have quoted? I didn't say any of them. Bit rich of you to be doing so, while also accusing me of misquoting you.

Since you keep demanding some evidence of atheists in the trenches...how about this group?
https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/inside-fbb/about/
A charity that, while young (founded in 2010) helps in disaster areas. It was founded by an atheist.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 183 by tam]


The point is more about how faith garners strength in Christians and how this makes them the premiere group for volunteer ship in the world , compared to any other group , or religion .

The loss of faith could mean the loss of the residuals of faith which help others in turn. One called the bible weak , the bible is what creates the most giving people on earth a far as self sacrifice goes , this Inhave shown behind doubt .

Should you ask any of these Christians at ground zero of a war torn area , or third world despair , or malaria filled jungles , where they garner their strength from . I am 100% sure they would state that their faith in the word is what garners this strength.

I have shown quotes of this earlier from am MSF member , when talking of the ones( doctors ) who were killed in the ME last year.

They were accused of proselytizing , a charge which they denied , as I am sure they were not that foolhardy to proselytize in this region , nor was it necessary , or their mission statement to do so .
.

[rikuoamero]

I'm not sure, but I do not think most people are objecting to more organizations being Christian. I think that must be true. In my city, the two biggest homeless shelters are the mustard seed and the hope mission. The organization helping homeless teens, however, is secular.

Of course if we are going to be fair, then 'christians' have also caused more harm in the world than atheists.


I think people are objecting more to comments like this:

I would be willing to bet most of the doctors in the MSF are Christian. My point is that it is mainly Christians you will find helping in the most dangerous parts of the world. I highly doubt there is an atheist in the bunch , of doctors without borders.... Faithful One

I don't think you can support these claims.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

That's precisely it. Faithful One is arguing for a world where most, if not all, charities have Christian origins. He ignores the presence of atheist volunteers and staff in those charities, he just keeps banging his Christian origin drum. Somehow, because most charities have Christian origins (in that the people who started them were more than likely Christian), this somehow precludes atheists or non-Christian believers from working in warzones and disaster areas. For some reason, an atheist doctor who joins MSF will look at a biography of its founders and say to himself "The founder of this group 40 years was a Christian. Dang nabbit! I can't join now!"

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 184 by rikuoamero]



Sorry , that post was quoting Hamsaka , my bad ,,but the point remains the same. That post should have been in reply to Hamsaka.

Lost track, sorry .

He ignores the presence of atheist volunteers and staff in those charities

No I am not . I am asking for examples of what group they would be in , are they with the Christians? This really isn't the main point . The point is that without faith in the word , many would suffer. The point is refuting one calling the bible weak . As you can see , that sets me off a bit . I have shown true strength gained through the words of the bible . I have shown how this helps the world at ground zero of troubled areas.

I stated that probably 70% of the MSF were. Let's say "God fearing ", which would mean the other 30% probably are not "God fearing ", or place their faith in the bible. This would show that I am not ignoring their presence . I also state "secular " organizations working with Christians , which also should be understood that not all follow the word of the bible, that are in these areas with the Christians

I stated this from the beginning , once again , another is creating an argument that I am not having .

[Bust Nak]

You keep saying this, but I am not seeing it. We have MSF recruited by Red Cross , those who say this is not a Christian org, surely kid themselves. The symbol itself is Christian.

The logo is only indirectly Christian, it signifies the Geneva Conventions and is the inverse of Swiss national flag. It is the flag of Switzerland that is a Christian symbol.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 188 by Bust Nak]

The logo is only indirectly Christian

Face palm , shakes head .

You guys are a tough crowd, but that is why I think I am gong to like it here . I wouldn't want it any other way.

[enviousintheeverafter]

"Nearly all of which are Christian " !

Will you deny wiki , that seems to be accepted here in this forum. Even wiki agrees with me.

Now that you understand the point properly and have been shown how these " secular " organizations are tied mainly to the Christians , do you still refute that Christians are the premier volunteers of the world , when it comes to the impoverished and downtrodden and war ridden people , as far as staying the course with them through decades and centuries .

"Premier"? That's probably correct, if you simply mean most numerous or well-represented. But then, Christians also make up the largest portion of the global population, so they're going to be the most numerous of many things, both good and bad (including the premier exploiters and subjugators, historically, of the downtrodden), as tam noted.

The bible is the sole source of this strength

And what reasons do you have for thinking this is the case? Doesn't seem like something one could possibly know, concerning the inner motivations and psychology of individuals you've never met. And since compassion and volunteerism appear to be general traits of humanity, not anything unique to Christians, it would seem that the Bible/Christianity/missionary work is not so much a cause of such behavior as it is a convenient vehicle for expressing it.

(btw, I can assure you there is an "atheist in a the bunch" of Doctors Without Borders- I have a cousin, who is an atheist, and one of his friends, who was an agnostic last I heard, who participated in DwB until just recently- and I doubt they were unique)