Simple repentance...

[Elijah John]

Isaiah 55.6,7

"Isaiah 55:6-7Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

6 Seek Adonai while he is available,
call on him while he is still nearby.
7 Let the wicked person abandon his way
and the evil person his thoughts;
let him return to Adonai,
and he will have mercy on him;
let him return to our God,
for he will FREELY forgive."

(caps my emphasis)


No need for blood here, animal OR human...Just simple repentance and forgiveness FREELY given!

Question for debate, how significant is the word FREELY in this passage?

Note that this is a JEWISH version, (i.e. closer to the original) The KJV renders the word as "abundantly". Is this change by the KJV an example of Christian revisionism in progress?

[Paprika]

Isaiah 55.6,7

"Isaiah 55:6-7Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

6 Seek Adonai while he is available,
call on him while he is still nearby.
7 Let the wicked person abandon his way
and the evil person his thoughts;
let him return to Adonai,
and he will have mercy on him;
let him return to our God,
for he will FREELY forgive."

(caps my emphasis)


No need for blood here, animal OR human...Just simple repentance and forgiveness FREELY given!

It's just a wee bit hard for a Jew to return to YHWH while refusing to keep the Law that YHWH commanded him to keep.

Question for debate, how significant is the word FREELY in this passage?

Note that this is a JEWISH version, (i.e. closer to the original) The KJV renders the word as "abundantly". Is this change by the KJV an example of Christian revisionism in progress?

Hardly. The root is rabah: " to be or become much, many or great", which accords well with "abundantly", as well as one sense of "freely" - c : without restraint or reservation <spent freely on clothes>

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Paprika]

The rich bought goats, rams, bulls etc to sacrifice at the Temple...

The poor bought doves...

Either way, forgiveness that has to be bought is not free.

[Divine Insight]

Question for debate, how significant is the word FREELY in this passage?

This is a perfect example of "Cherry picking".

Why are you focusing on the concept of "free forgiveness" in this passage?

Well, clearly you are focusing on it to further you religious agenda.

But I could just as easily focus on many other things from this same verse:


7 Let the wicked person abandon his way
and the evil person his thoughts;
let him return to Adonai,
and he will have mercy on him;
let him return to our God,
for he will freely forgive."

(Bold blue underline my emphasis)

To begin with why should I believe that I'm a wicked or evil person in the first place. This is a criteria that is central to Christianity. They need very desperately to accuse everyone of being a wicked evil person.

Return to who's God?

This sounds like a cult that thinks they own God.

For one thing, even if I had made some mistakes in my life that I regret and am sorry I ever did (i.e. I already have repentance in my heart for those things). That doesn't mean that I need to ask Isaiah's God for forgiveness.

In fact, any actual "God" would already know that I have repented in my heart. No need to ask. As Jesus points out a thought is sufficient for an action.

The part I have extreme problems with here is the "return to our God" part. This is clearly a religion that would renounce any claim that anyone makes concerning being in "good with God" unless they bow down and worship the DOGMA that Isaiah and other Hebrews had penned.

They aren't talking about worshiping any "God", what they are truly talking about is bowing down to the dogma of their religious cult. Return to our God!

No other God, or religion will do!

What? You've repented in your heart? That's not good enough!

If you don't support Our God and Our Dogma you're a wicked evil heathen who is unwilling to repent.

It's a scam Elijah.

It's a religious cult.

If a decent person has repented in their heart for any trivial things they may have done that might be considered wrong or "evil" then they are already forgiven. There is no need to demand that they worship the dogma of any religion, or believe in any claims of prophets, or demigods.

Even atheists who feel bad about things they've done are already forgiven, for they have already repented in their heart.

I just killed a snake that was a trying to get into my house the other day and I've been feeling really bad about. And ironically, these religions wouldn't even consider killing a snake to be a "sin" that requires repentance. Yet, I've been repenting in my heart about having killed that snake for a couple days now.

Those are the kind of "evil" things I do. And I wouldn't have even bothered the snake had it been in my garden or anywhere else. But the darn thing was trying to get into my house. I had no choice. Still feeling guilty about killing it though.

How many people are going to feel guilty about killing a snake that's trying to get into their house?

But I'm not going to go running to the Hebrew God begging for forgiveness. In fact, that God should have known better than to create snakes in the first place.

~~~~~~

Getting back to your topic.

If God forgives "Freely" then there would be no need for Jesus as the "Savior".

Why you continue to insist that you are a "Christian" is beyond me.

You reject orthodox Christianity at least as much as I do.

You've turned Jesus into "Just another prophet" having no more clout than Muhammad.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

DI states:

"If God forgives "Freely" then there would be no need for Jesus as the "Savior".

Why you continue to insist that you are a "Christian" is beyond me.

You reject orthodox Christianity at least as much as I do.

You've turned Jesus into "Just another prophet" having no more clout than Muhammad."
--------------
EJ responds:

That's my point, there is no savior but YHVH himself. So says Isaiah, who preceeded John or Paul.

Naw...I accept more of Christianity than you admittledly do. I worship what you call the "Hebrew God" YHVH (actually the Universal God with a Hebrew NAME, not a "cult god" at all..)..and try to do it in the way that Jesus taught.

Could it be that worshiping YHVH alone is what JESUS himself intended and taught? Could it be that many modern Christians are worshipping an innocent man, who never asked for any of this?

(Jesus recites sh'ma in Mark, teaches the Lord's prayer to the FATHER in Matthew and Luke, hallowing the name of YHVH, and in John 17.3 calls the FATHER the ONLY TRUE GOD!)

And if so, doesn't that make me a Christian? Who is ANYONE but God (or Jesus) to say that I am not?

[Divine Insight]

And if so, doesn't that make me a Christian? Who is ANYONE but God (or Jesus) to say that I am not?

The Orthodox Christians who have defined what Orthodox Christianity means. That's who.


All you are doing is basically arguing "semantics" in favor of WHAT exactly?

Orthodox Christianity has Jesus as the "Son of God" who has been "sacrificed" to pay for your sins. There is no way to get to the Father but through Jesus.

That's what "Christianity" means today.

All you are doing is rebelling against Orthodox Christianity in favor of other "rumors" about Jesus where Jesus is nothing more than a mere moral man just like the rest of us.

You reject the miraculous virgin birth.
You reject the supernatural miracles that were supposedly performed by Jesus.
You reject the resurrection of Jesus.

How does that make you anymore of a "Christian" than me?

You claim that you worship "YHVH" and that's the same God that Jesus worshiped.

But who cares?

I worship the Creator of the Universe (if such an entity exists), and if Jesus was worshiping the Creator of the Universe, then Jesus was worshiping the same God as me too!

So according to you, that makes me a "Christian" simply because I worship the same God that Jesus worshiped.

Placing a label like "YHVH" on "God" is nonsense. All that amounts to is an attempt to copyright God and associate God with Hebrew folklore only.

In fact, you reject a lot of the Old Testament anyway, yet that is the dogma that defines "YHVH". Without that dogma to define YHVH, there wouldn't be much of a definition.

How can you say that the Buddhists don't worship YHVH?

And if they do, then by your standards, they too would be "Christians" because they worship the same God as Jesus.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Do you understand that different people have different names for the same God?

Allah, for example is THE GOD...in Arabic.

YHVH is the Hebrew name for the same God.

It is not an attempt to "copyright"

And if we worship the same God, the Creator of the universe, I try to worship him according to the teachings of Jesus...and that is what makes me a Christian.

You seem to follow the teachings of the Buddha, who didn't seem to have a god at all...or the Tao..Which is similar to many of the ways of Christianity, but with different traditions, and somewhat different concepts. Or Wicca, which is even more different...

So I do believe that by trying to follow what Jesus taught, AS Jesus taught it..that makes me a Christian. We may untimately believe int he the same Divine reality, but our approaches are VASTLY different.

In short, I try to do it Jesus way, you try to do it other ways.

If Orthodoxy is a departure from what Jesus taught, should we let revisionists claime the exclsive rights to the name "Christian"?

Do you REALLY think that was Jesus intention, to have HIMSELF the object of worship?

Or do you think it is more likely that Jesus purpose was to teach people the way to worship and serve the one true LIVING God (as opposed to Pagan idols) whom the Hebrews and Jesus knew as YHVH?

[ttruscott]

Isaiah 55.6,7

"Isaiah 55:6-7Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

6 Seek Adonai while he is available,
call on him while he is still nearby.
7 Let the wicked person abandon his way
and the evil person his thoughts;
let him return to Adonai,
and he will have mercy on him;
let him return to our God,
for he will FREELY forgive."

(caps my emphasis)


No need for blood here, animal OR human...Just simple repentance and forgiveness FREELY given!

Question for debate, how significant is the word FREELY in this passage?

Note that this is a JEWISH version, (i.e. closer to the original) The KJV renders the word as "abundantly". Is this change by the KJV an example of Christian revisionism in progress?

abundantly: Strong's H7235 - rabah

be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous
(Qal)
to become many, become numerous, multiply (of people, animals, things)
to be or grow great
(Piel) to make large, enlarge, increase, become many
(Hiphil)
to make much, make many, have many
to multiply, increase
to make much to do, do much in respect of, transgress greatly
to increase greatly or exceedingly
to make great, enlarge, do much

רָבָה râbâh, raw-baw'; a primitive root; to increase (in whatever respect):—(bring in) abundance abundantly

I guess it depends upon how freely is being used, that is, as without cost or without measure....

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 2 by Paprika]

The rich bought goats, rams, bulls etc to sacrifice at the Temple...

The poor bought doves...

Either way, forgiveness that has to be bought is not free.

The problem is in the English use of free, not the doctrine of abundant forgiveness.

Needing a sacrifice for forgiveness is not a payment for the forgiveness but is a reminder that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

[ttruscott]

... and in John 17.3 calls the FATHER the ONLY TRUE GOD!)

...

And yet the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary claims to see the affirmation of the deity of Christ in this phrase.