Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Bust Nak]

This very well could be , as surely a Christian considers their life or fate under their Gods control , but that would not make this individual not do anything to help their self out . One common philosophy of Christianity , which I am sure you are familiar with , is that God only helps those that help themselves.

Once again the non Christians faith would stay static , as their is nothing to grow it on, even more than likely decreasing the longer it takes to be rescued . The Christian would probably worry less , as he/she has something to grow their faith on , showing increase in faith in times of desperation. This does not mean the non Christian would not have the same will to survive , this would mean he/she might have a harder time getting through this trial or tribulation.

Even if we take what you say about faith for granted, trivially a Muslim would be at least as good as a Christian because the two religion are pretty much the same when it comes to strength in adversity.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Not at all. Should the religion not exist ,then there would be no need for servitude

Like I said, this is revealing. Should the religion not exist, there would still be need for "servitude", because there would still be people in need of help.

There seems to be more proclivity in showing compassion by Christians, this is abundantly obvious all over the world.

But its not obvious. As I noted, and as the study cited suggests, the opposite seems to be the case; Christians are less likely to be "showing compassion".

This is not a judgment sating this makes them superior in any way, this is just an obvious observation

Not only is it not obvious, it may well be false. A reassuring myth Christians tell themselves.

There is a difference in having compassion and showing compassion , the Christian bible teaches Christians to show compassion by helping those who can not help themselves

And it looks like Christians do what the Bible teaches as much or more because its what the Bible teaches rather than because they are being compassionate. If I help others because I'm following religious rules that say I should, and/or I'm concerned about the consequences (heaven/hell), then I'm not helping them out of compassion.

a non Christian does not have such a guide .

You don't need a (religious) guide, as the many non-religious folks involved in humanitarian/volunteer work demonstrate.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 209 by Zzyzx]

Exactly. That common delusion of superiority makes many capable and determined enemies for Christendom. Of course no evidence is presented – only opinions and conjecture – because there is no evidence of the imagined superiority. It is all in the minds of those who make such claims or convey such attitudes

What you are doing is missing the whole point , we have digressed into different points other than the original one that started this part of the discussion /debate,but it has grown interesting and fits the forum perfectly.

Feeling superior is not a Christian trait. Walking in the faith requires humbleness and humility , as a man , as a human. Once again , Christians who are in these hell holes of humanity do not put themselves above any of the ones they help. Their faith does not allow for it. Once missions are are over for said Christian , they have learned to humble themselves and understand God has no favorites.

Should one be under the delusion of the feeling of superiority because they help others more than others , then you are correct , they are deluded. That is not why Christians are more dominant in these places than any other , it is because there are needs to be fulfilled, that many others are not stepping up to the plate to help out on, so there they are for centuries now . For the good and the bad ,,but evolvement has taught missionaries to tread more lightly in some places , as far as proselytizing.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 214 by Clownboat]

Thank you for this admission. Their faith, as you are such a fan of is so great compared to those who are only willing to go to bad neighborhoods around the world it would seem.

I have explained this to you perfectly , but you obviously did not get it.

Suicide is a cowardly act. Blowing yourself up would be a selfish act. This does not make one have more faith than the other.

Let me ask you this .

Do you believe that killing yourself takes more strength than perseverance through adversities ? Stating that ones faith is stronger because they are willing to take their own lives and destroy others, is surely not a fair analogy to growing faith through helping others.

Like I said before , one could have faith in anything , but living in the faith and growing it is another story.

Cowardice and selfishness and evil, are not residuals of faith.

I'm a fan of the Muslim faith ? Not hardly . I just have respect for other religions , which is why I corrected your generalization of equating the whole of Islam to suicide bombers.

[Zzyzx]

.

Exactly. That common delusion of superiority makes many capable and determined enemies for Christendom. Of course no evidence is presented – only opinions and conjecture – because there is no evidence of the imagined superiority. It is all in the minds of those who make such claims or convey such attitudes

Feeling superior is not a Christian trait.

Perhaps in theory. In practice here in debate and in the real world many Christians exhibit behavior and words that indicate a feeling of superiority. "I have seen the light and you have not", "I am going to heaven and you are going to hell", "We Christians have higher morals than Non-Christians", "We Christians do more to help others because of our faith", etc.

Walking in the faith requires humbleness and humility , as a man , as a human.

Oh the irony – "At humility we are superior" because our faith makes us so.

Once again , Christians who are in these hell holes of humanity do not put themselves above any of the ones they help. Their faith does not allow for it. Once missions are are over for said Christian , they have learned to humble themselves

This is presented as though it was factual. If it is more than personal opinion and conjecture kindly present evidence to show it is true.

and understand God has no favorites.

Many Christians seem to disagree – and to claim that Christians are God's favorites (some Jews make the same claim for their religion).

Should one be under the delusion of the feeling of superiority because they help others more than others , then you are correct , they are deluded.

Thank you.

Is this thread NOT attempting to prove superiority of Christians with reference to benevolence?

That is not why Christians are more dominant in these places than any other , it is because there are needs to be fulfilled, that many others are not stepping up to the plate to help out on, so there they are for centuries now .

As pointed out repeatedly, Non-Christians DO "step up to the plate" – including this one specifically.

For the good and the bad ,,but evolvement has taught missionaries to tread more lightly in some places , as far as proselytizing.

Yes, proselytizing is minimal where it is punished severely enough.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 216 by KenRU]

I agree that religion (any religion) can give someone strength and fortitude. But this inner power is not solely derived from religion. It can be found in other sources: family, country, greed, lust for power etc.

That someone can be motivated by something does not speak to its accuracy, truthfulness or benevolence.

Agreed , this is not the sole source of faith for some. Some of the things you mention do not require faith . Lust , Greed . Once again , you are talking about having faith, not growing it to make you a stronger person. Having faith is static , walking in the faith and growing through administering the residuals of faith is what builds your character.

This is accomplished in many ways , the way we are speaking of is one of gaining strength and fortitude, by facing adversities that you would not normally experience, in your every day life .

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 209 by Zzyzx]

Exactly. That common delusion of superiority makes many capable and determined enemies for Christendom. Of course no evidence is presented – only opinions and conjecture – because there is no evidence of the imagined superiority. It is all in the minds of those who make such claims or convey such attitudes

What you are doing is missing the whole point , we have digressed into different points other than the original one that started this part of the discussion /debate,but it has grown interesting and fits the forum perfectly.

I disagree in defense of the overall purpose of this forum. You are presenting faith-based claims as if they were empirically true. This enables you to repeatedly assert your faith-based claim regardless of the evidence refuting it. Faith doesn't belong in debate, but sometimes it is difficult to discern if a theist's argument relies upon faith or consensus reality until the argument proceeds. There is a rather clear absence of reason in your position, just repetitive claims on top of more claims. Surely with your long history of debating atheists this criticism has been leveled at your arguments before?

Feeling superior is not a Christian trait. Walking in the faith requires humbleness and humility , as a man , as a human. Once again , Christians who are in these hell holes of humanity do not put themselves above any of the ones they help. Their faith does not allow for it. Once missions are are over for said Christian , they have learned to humble themselves and understand God has no favorites.

Should one be under the delusion of the feeling of superiority because they help others more than others , then you are correct , they are deluded. That is not why Christians are more dominant in these places than any other , it is because there are needs to be fulfilled, that many others are not stepping up to the plate to help out on, so there they are for centuries now . For the good and the bad ,,but evolvement has taught missionaries to tread more lightly in some places , as far as proselytizing.

Your entire argument hinges upon your faith in Christian moral superiority. This can be demonstrated with evidence; goal-post shifting for one (mentioned by several posters), and repeated assertions that are empirically false that continue to be repeated. I believe your argument qualifies as a personal opinion on a debate forum. Personal opinion, however faith-based, has no special significance or uniquely 'valid' basis simply because it is Christian faith-based. In your insistence that there is something uniquely "Christian" about humanitarianism, you repeatedly engage in 'special pleading', a logical fallacy.

An objective observer to this back n forth could come away with the conclusion that the pro-Christian opponent is willing to engage in disingenuous maneuvers to make his point, including goal-post moving, distortion, ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary, and refusal to acknowledge that the argument has been refuted for pages now. How can this be good 'witnessing', to anyone?

[H.sapiens]

Feeling superior is not a Christian trait. Walking in the faith requires humbleness and humility , as a man , as a human.

Easily falsified. Were your statement true you'd jump at the chance to accept, with humbleness and humility, your honest place in the universe as a large-brained, upright ape rather than attempting to glorify yourself as a poor copy of a supreme being.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 227 by Hamsaka]

Your entire argument hinges upon your faith in Christian moral superiority. This can be demonstrated with evidence; goal-post shifting for one (mentioned by several posters), and repeated assertions that are empirically false that continue to be repeated.

My point has remained the same since my defense of the bible not being weak , since the beginning . I also moved no goal post. I stated from the start MSF was an exception and explained that I was speaking of ones that have Christian ties .

This was made explicitly clear from the beginning . All the way back to page 10 or 11.

This forum is about arguing for and against Christianity , this back and forth could not fit any better .

I will be back to answer to the rest soon. My argument has nothing to do with " moral superiority ", at all .

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 227 by Hamsaka]

Your entire argument hinges upon your faith in Christian moral superiority. This can be demonstrated with evidence; goal-post shifting for one (mentioned by several posters), and repeated assertions that are empirically false that continue to be repeated. I believe your argument qualifies as a personal opinion on a debate forum. Personal opinion, however faith-based, has no special significance or uniquely 'valid' basis simply because it is Christian faith-based. In your insistence that there is something uniquely "Christian" about humanitarianism, you repeatedly engage in 'special pleading', a logical fallacy.

Opinion ?! I have shown that the bible inspires strength with global examples of it .

I am explaining the dynamics of how faith can grow strength and fortitude , by Christians who use the teachings of the bible.

One sated the bible was weak because 1213 stated the miracles could not be proven. I have shown how that is far from true, that the bible is a source of strength for Christians , this is not "a claim ", this is self evident.


I still await your best example of how I was refuted stating that Christians are the most giving religion, or organization on earth , how Christians show more bravery and strength than any other origination or religion on earth , as far as volunteer ship and self sacrifice at these ground zeroes of the most troubled places on earth .

Who is beside them ? I have yet to get an answer , we know the Christians are there , as they die or are imprisoned by the dozens , if not hundreds each year , serving others , in these hell holes of humanity.

This is not a "claim" this is fact , as you can read about some of them in my source on this thread , where the quote states that faith is what keeps her strong , in the time of ten medical personnel being killed for supposed proselytizing .

Which brings my point home , beyond a claim.

ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary, and refusal to acknowledge that the argument has been refuted for pages now. How can this be good 'witnessing', to anyone?

Wrong again Hamsaka.

I have answer to many points ,agreed with many points . I agreed on points made on the flag of the Red Cross. I agreed that faith can come from other venues. I agreed that Christians who think they are superior are "deluded ", and I even stated the MSF , as an exception , even though they were recruited and ran by Christians. This was like in my third post of being challenged on who was more prevalent in helping others in the world . I have been more than affable. I do not just dismiss others points.

The most important thing to know , is that I am not "witnessing" . Should I be allowed to witness , the point would be driven home in a much different manner.