Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Zzyzx]

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Believe what the book says because the book says to believe what the book says so you can to to heaven after you die like the book says. Leave your brain behind and BELIEVE. If you think about it you may discover that it does not make sense.

No thanks. That may appeal to some people but not to those who prefer to think for themselves.

Believing is not just about going to heaven for Christians. The messages are about overcoming adversity and building integrity by showing compassion and understanding of others, matching life's problems and solving them with the philosophies of the bible.

Since overcoming adversity, building integrity, having compassion, understanding others, and solving life's problems can be accomplished WITHOUT philosophies of the Bible by many people, what is the advantage in being Christian (other than "going to heaven")?

As a Christian I do not concentrate on the reward of heaven. I concentrate on leaning more about my God and the message that is given , a message of showing compassion while being strong, as the problems of the world come upon you.

So it is more "learn "learn " learn ", more than believe , believe , believe .

Learn WHAT? Learn more about believing, about religion, about Bible stories?

The learning strengthens your belief , the worldly outcomes when you come out of a storm unscathed strengthen your belief.

The more people learn about the real world the more they encounter reasons to NOT believe tales told by religion promoters (ancient or modern). As education increases religion decreases " for individuals and societies as shown by many studies easily available with an Internet search.

Belief that the bibles messages will help you through

If the "storm" people face is (for example) a serious illness or injury it is likely that getting through involves competent professional medical help " and that Bible messages cannot be shown to help beyond placebo effect.

Doctor or preacher " which one after a serious accident?

I do not discourage people from believing whatever makes them feel good or capable " but do recommend real world solutions to real problems.

,,not just a belief to get to heaven , that should never be your only reason to believe , as far as God is concerned , the walk in the faith is also involved . The learning and understanding the messages , not just the "believing ".

Perhaps Christendom has distorted the message from God (if there was such a thing, which seems doubtful) because the emphasis often presented IS upon "believe so you can go to heaven."

Without the promise of heaven, why would / should anyone believe Bible tales?

Without the promise of heaven and threat of hell how could people be convinced to be Christian?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 251 by Zzyzx]

Since overcoming adversity, building integrity, having compassion, understanding others, and solving life's problems can be accomplished WITHOUT philosophies of the Bible by many people, what is the advantage in being Christian (other than "going to heaven")?

How they are accomplished and persevered is the issue. The messages of the bible wil help you get through many iniquities. The statement was not that others could not .

One does not seek "advamtage ", that is the whole point, and probably what separates the secular goals from that of Chritsians , this is is not "what's in it for me ", this is being thankful for the life you wrre given , then serving your master , this is about forgetting yourself and putting others ahead of you daily..

The reward is a fulfillment of contentment and grace through God , if you believe . Everlasting life is surely a great reward,,but should not be your only motivation to believe as a Christian.

[Zzyzx]

.

Since overcoming adversity, building integrity, having compassion, understanding others, and solving life's problems can be accomplished WITHOUT philosophies of the Bible by many people, what is the advantage in being Christian (other than "going to heaven")?

How they are accomplished and persevered is the issue. The messages of the bible wil help you get through many iniquities. The statement was not that others could not .

Since Non-Christians accomplish the same things without help from the Bible or God that Christians accomplish WITH help, are Christians less capable of accomplishing on their own " or more in need of assistance than Non-Christians who do just as well without the supposed help?

I am in favor of those in need getting help so if religion does so for people and helps them cope and accomplish, more power to them. However, they should not assume that others need help to make similar accomplishments.

Realistically, though, the "help" that is being discussed seems to me to be nothing more than psychological / emotional / mental placebo. I do not claim to know that but only reflect upon what I see in real life (as a resident of the Bible Belt surrounded by Christians).

One does not seek "advamtage ", that is the whole point, and probably what separates the secular goals from that of Chritsians , this is is not "what's in it for me ", this is being thankful for the life you wrre given , then serving your master , this is about forgetting yourself and putting others ahead of you daily..

The reward is a fulfillment of contentment and grace through God , if you believe . Everlasting life is surely a great reward,,but should not be your only motivation to believe as a Christian.

Again, all of those things (fulfillment, contentment, overcoming adversity, building integrity, understanding others, solving life problems) do NOT require "grace through God" or Christian beliefs.

So, why be Christian?

[atheist buddy]

..But only Jesus said he was the Son of God, which gives a lot more weight to him than anybody else..

First, we don't know if Jesus ever said that..

If you're going to say that about Jesus you're going to have to say it about every historical figure who ever lived!
For example I never heard Elvis say "Stay offa my blue suede shoes", but my commonsense tells me he did say it..

Here, Elvis saying "stay offa my blue suade shoes".

If a team of nobel prize winners brainstormed for a month, I don't think they could have come up with a worse argument for anything, than your argument regarding Elvis.

[atheist buddy]

..But only Jesus said he was the Son of God, which gives a lot more weight to him than anybody else..

First, we don't know if Jesus ever said that..

If you're going to say that about Jesus you're going to have to say it about every historical figure who ever lived!

That's not true, there are plenty of historical figures for whom there is very strong evidence that they said what they said.

But let's pretend that you're right.

So what?

Let's agree that we don't know whether Julius Caesar actually said "Et tu, Brute fili mi" as he was being killed.

Who cares. He either said it or he didn't say it. Big whoop.

But if you wish to allege that we should base our life on a religion, and build our perception of the very fabric of reality, on the basis of some guy 2000 years ago MAYBE having said he was the son of God, then you had better have some more compelling evidence than the copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of something somebody heard from somebody who heard from somebody who heard form somebody that some guy who maybe existed maybe said he was the son of god.

Get real.

[Dropship]

Let's agree that we don't know whether Julius Caesar actually said "Et tu, Brute fili mi" as he was being killed....
But if you wish to allege that we should base our life on a religion, and build our perception of the very fabric of reality, on the basis of some guy 2000 years ago MAYBE having said he was the son of God..

Firstly, Caesar very probably said to Brutus- "You rotter, I thought you was my best mate!"
Secondly, Jesus wasn't a "religion", he was solid flesh and blood and was technically an alien like he said- "I am not of this world" (John 8:23)
and he got the typical reception that primitive humans give to aliens..

[PghPanther]

In 13 years of internet debating, I've never yet seen an atheist or nonchristian give a plausible answer to the question- "What would have been the Bible writers MOTIVE for making it all up?"

I don't believe that you have never yet seen an atheist or non-christian give a plausible answer to the question you've pose. My guess it that you are simply in denial of their very intelligent and rational answers to that question.

To begin with it would be no different from asking, "What would have been the motivation for making up the Qur'an?"

Can you answer that question? If so, then you should easily see motivations for the authors of the Bible. In fact, the people of the Far East see all of the Abrahamic religions as nothing more than tribes of the Middle East each trying to own the copyright on "God".

My answer to your question is simple. The first obvious motivation is the same for every religion in the region - Superstition!

No doubt many of these people actually believed in their superstitions. However, in the case of the Bible as these superstitions grew they also took on Political Agendas. In fact, that happened early on in the Old Testament, but it became extremely political in the New Testament and with the rise of Christianity. Christianity was indeed used as a very strong political machine. There can be no doubt about that.

So there is no mystery why these things became what they are. And the motivations for them are obvious. The mere fact that you think this would be a difficult question to answer seems silly to me. That's your own personal problem there.

For the rest of us it's not a problem at all. And I'm sure that if you've been debating atheists for 13 years you've heard many great answers to this question. For you to claim that you've never heard a plausible answer to this question is extremely questionable. In fact, I hold that if that is indeed your claim after 13 years of debating atheists then you either aren't listening to what they are even saying, or you are in extreme denial of the truths that they speak.

A lot of truth to what you stated..........what many people of faith fail to realize and/or accept is that their proclaimed holy scriptures were written in a time, culture and place of prescientific time when natural phenomenon were all assumed to have a supernatural agency to their cause and that this agency found favor is some peoples over others leading to tribal conflicts..........look in the OT, NT and the Koran and you will see a tribal war God that if not in conflict over real estate is in conflict over the possession of souls from other imagined beings.........

How anyone in today's society could even consider this as reality or a path way to any kind of proclaimed truth must have taken a serious leap of faith while maintaining ignorance or denial of reality as it has been discovered by scientific enlightenment over the past 500 years....

[atheist buddy]

Let's agree that we don't know whether Julius Caesar actually said "Et tu, Brute fili mi" as he was being killed....
But if you wish to allege that we should base our life on a religion, and build our perception of the very fabric of reality, on the basis of some guy 2000 years ago MAYBE having said he was the son of God..

Firstly, Caesar very probably said to Brutus- "You rotter, I thought you was my best mate!"
Secondly, Jesus wasn't a "religion", he was solid flesh and blood and was technically an alien like he said- "I am not of this world" (John 8:23)
and he got the typical reception that primitive humans give to aliens..

Well, let me know when the aliens that absucted you remove the "make the human say random absurdities" chip that they implanted in your brain, and then we can resume the conversation.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 214 by Clownboat]

Thank you for this admission. Their faith, as you are such a fan of is so great compared to those who are only willing to go to bad neighborhoods around the world it would seem.

I have explained this to you perfectly , but you obviously did not get it.

No sir, I get it. We just disagree.

Suicide is a cowardly act. Blowing yourself up would be a selfish act. This does not make one have more faith than the other.

Perhaps you do not understand self preservation.
Imagine how much faith a person would need to have in their religion in order to blow themselves up for it.

Let me ask you this .

Do you believe that killing yourself takes more strength than perseverance through adversities ?

Killing yourself does not require strength. No one has argued for such a thing in this thread.

Stating that ones faith is stronger because they are willing to take their own lives and destroy others, is surely not a fair analogy to growing faith through helping others.

Correct, it is an analogy that just might show which side has the greater faith though. That is my point, not destroying or helping others... just the level of faith.

Like I said before , one could have faith in anything , but living in the faith and growing it is another story.

You admit that a person could place faith in anything, then go on about growing it. What would be the point of growing such an arbitrary thing? Why grow something that you can place willy nilly towards any belief?
Perhaps you could place your faith in bigfoot, then grow said faith. Again, what would be the point?

Cowardice and selfishness and evil, are not residuals of faith.

Not true. For example, I'm sure there were people that had faith in what Hitler was doing. Sure they were wrong, but faith does not care about being right or wrong, which is why growing it seems odd to me.

I'm a fan of the Muslim faith ? Not hardly . I just have respect for other religions , which is why I corrected your generalization of equating the whole of Islam to suicide bombers.

Please cut/paste where I equated the whole of Islam as to being suicide bombers.
I feel childish for having to defend such a notion, but readers, be assured, I don't think all members of Islam are suicide bombers. If faithful one really believed I thought this, did he not think such a thing through as to ascertain the fact that there would then not be any people left to maintain said religion. I'm sensing some slander perhaps.
What parts of Islam do you have respect for?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 259 by Clownboat]

Please cut/paste where I equated the whole of Islam as to being suicide bombers

Both actions are done due to their religious beliefs.
Muslims are willing to blow themselves up for theirs, Christians are just willing to put band aides on people in dangerous neighborhoods.

Who has the greater religious conviction here?
Welcome to the Islamic faith.

You are speaking of Muslims and " the Islamic faith" in general here . I corrected your generalization, as I knew what you intended Should I have thought you were doing this on purpose , I would have handled it in a different manner. You are equating a whole religion to suicide bombing, very insultive , but I do not believe that was your intention.