Is an acorn an oak tree?

[Blastcat]

"If an acorn is an oak tree organism, an acorn is therefore an oak tree."

Post 471: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:31 pm Re: Does he have a valid point?

Question for debate:
Is the above quote valid reasoning, and why?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 18 by bluethread]

So, just to be as clear as humanly possible, are you saying that an acorn is NOT an oak TREE?

Thank you.

Yes, but neither is an oak sprout, or even a sapling, if one is a carpenter. You seem to be arguing the use of specifications and adjectives as if they are definitive. They are defining, but not definitive. Is a fawn significantly different from a buck or a doe, just because we use special terms to indicate a difference. To a hunter there is a big difference, to a farmer, not so much.

So, your answer is yes, an acorn is NOT a tree? It seems that you are qualifying. I can't get a clear understanding of your actual position. You seem a bit hesitant on the matter. Don't be shy. I'm here for debate.

Can you be categorical please?

Does acorn=tree?

And then I can attempt to understand your objection. I don't really get it right now. So is a sapling to a carpenter?... not sure what that means. Maybe you can spell it out for me.

[bluethread]

Can you be categorical please?

Does acorn=tree?

No, acorn=oak

And then I can attempt to understand your objection. I don't really get it right now. So is a sapling to a carpenter?... not sure what that means. Maybe you can spell it out for me.

To a carpenter a sapling is not a tree, because it can not be made into lumber. To an arborist, a sapling is a tree, because it is the intend use of the customer. The problem here is that I am being categorical, but you are ignoring the categories. A tree is a category, not an essence. All oaks are trees, but not all trees are oaks. All acorns are nuts, but not all nuts are acorns. Not all oaks are acorns, some are trees, but, all acorns are oaks. Let's change it to pines and it will be less confusing. A pine tree is a pine as is the pine nut. The essence of both is pine, the nut and the tree are categories related to that essence.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 22 by bluethread]

Can you be categorical please?

Does acorn=tree?

No, acorn=oak

And your answer ≠ relevant to the question.

You might have said acorn = squirrel food. I was not ASKING if the acorn was an oak or not. It's a very simple question. IS the acorn a TREE, yes or no?

That's it.

I don't care what species it is. I don't care how much it weighs. I don't care if it's been naughty or nice. I don't care about it's pretty colors. I don't care if it tastes bitter or sweet. I don't care where to look for them in winter, or how to take care of them when they are sick. I don't care if they can fit up your nose. I don't care how far you can throw one. I don't care what you call them, I don't care if you like them, or if you prefer pines, I don't care if OAKS are generally more confusing than pines. I don't care if oaks throw more shade than maples, in fact,, it's pretty safe to say that I don't care about ANYTHING AT ALL BUT
Is an acorn a tree?

THAT'S what I care about right now. Yes, I have very limited caring capacity. I'm working on it.

And then I can attempt to understand your objection. I don't really get it right now. So is a sapling to a carpenter?... not sure what that means. Maybe you can spell it out for me.

To a carpenter a sapling is not a tree, because it can not be made into lumber. To an arborist, a sapling is a tree, because it is the intend use of the customer. The problem here is that I am being categorical, but you are ignoring the categories. A tree is a category, not an essence.

To a carpenter, the sapling is a sapling, unless he is a VERY bad carpenter. I'd like to see him try to make a dinning room set from a sapling.

To the tree vendor, the sapling is still a sapling. Trees cost considerably more, and the arborist would never make that mistake.

I don't understand what you mean by my ignoring categories. You offer the category SAPLING and then you offer the category TREE. I am not ignoring either category.

All oaks are trees, but not all trees are oaks.

What does this have to do with whether acorns are trees?

All acorns are nuts, but not all nuts are acorns.

Again, I see no connection with my very simple question. Is an acorn a tree?

Not all oaks are acorns, some are trees, but, all acorns are oaks. Let's change it to pines and it will be less confusing.

Oh, yes, I find that pines are always a bit less confusing that the complex oaks.

A pine tree is a pine as is the pine nut.

So, a pine nut is a pine tree? What ARE you saying please?

Is an acorn a tree.. simple question I thought.. NOT SO ! This question is VERY complex.. must be the oaks complicating everything, those pesky oaks !

The essence of both is pine, the nut and the tree are categories related to that essence.

The PINE ESSENCE.. Yes, the pine essence and the pine tree and the pine cone and the pine board and the pine needle are RELATED to the pine. My TOENAIL is related to my grandma and my shoe and all of my socks.

But is an acorn a tree... ?

Do people go right to HELL for answering this question?

[Miles]

"If an acorn is an oak tree organism, an acorn is therefore an oak tree."

Post 471: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:31 pm Re: Does he have a valid point?

Question for debate:
Is the above quote valid reasoning, and why?

As the reasoning stands it appears to be a stab at a conditional argument. The problem lies in what is meant by "organism." In any case the conclusion is not true. And an acorn is not an oak tree. Note the difference.

The tree is the tall thing with lots of green leaves. The acorn is the tan roundish thing with a brown cap.



Not drawn to relative size.---just so you know.

[Paprika]

"If an acorn is an oak tree organism, an acorn is therefore an oak tree."

Question for debate:
Is the above quote valid reasoning, and why?

I am not MEANING to ask if an acorn is of the Genus Quercus, I know that it is. The MEANING of the question is :

Is an acorn a tree?

So, if you could weigh in on that, is an acorn a tree?

I suppose you're asking if it's of a more mature state? No it isn't.

And if you could also weigh in on the actual question that is found in the OP. Is the comment quoted logically valid, and if so, why?

It is valid since "an acorn is therefore an oak tree" can mean "an acorn is a member of the Genus Quercus", as you yourself recognise. You may not mean to ask it (as bolded above) but some may choose to equivocate deliberately or unintentionally to twist the intent of your statement.

Have we cleared things up?

[DanieltheDragon]

I would like to further relate this analogy to the zygote/embryo and human relation.

I view a sperm and an egg as two different types of acorn seed. The second they combine, I view it as the acorn seed sprouting. Thus, I view zygotes/embryos as human beings.

I would just like to point out that Oak trees reproduce sexually(in a sense) They have male and female parts. The pollen from the male flowers pollinate the female flowers and an acorn is then produced. An Acorn is equivalent to a zygote/embryo not sperm and egg.

So if you view Zygotes/embryos as human than you view acorns as trees.

[Dropship]

Thank you for your opinion about acorns and trees. I invite you to take the poll above.
Your analogy rests on unverified premises that you don't supply evidence for, so I will have to discount them as invalid and meaningless.

Regrettably I can't vote in the poll because i don't understand the question, namely-
Is it valid to say that if an acorn is an oak organism that it is an oak tree?

Is it some kind of philosophical riddle or a bit of some obscure fundy double-talk or what?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 27 by Dropship]

well an acorn has the DNA of an oak tree. If we consider that an oak tree is an organism then the offspring of said organism would still be considered the same species.

The question then becomes is an acorn a tree or a seed?

Conversely is a seed a tree and vice versa?

just take the oak out of it and break it down to is a seed a tree and you have a little bit less double talk.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by Paprika]

"If an acorn is an oak tree organism, an acorn is therefore an oak tree."

Question for debate:
Is the above quote valid reasoning, and why?

I am not MEANING to ask if an acorn is of the Genus Quercus, I know that it is. The MEANING of the question is :

Is an acorn a tree?

So, if you could weigh in on that, is an acorn a tree?

I suppose you're asking if it's of a more mature state? No it isn't.

You suppose wrong.
I'm not asking if it's of a more mature state.
Can you try to answer my real question?

Is an acorn a tree?
Simple yes or no will suffice.

And if you could also weigh in on the actual question that is found in the OP. Is the comment quoted logically valid, and if so, why?

It is valid since "an acorn is therefore an oak tree" can mean "an acorn is a member of the Genus Quercus", as you yourself recognise. You may not mean to ask it (as bolded above) but some may choose to equivocate deliberately or unintentionally to twist the intent of your statement.

Yes, some may equivocate, ironically, or doubly ironically...

Here is a small list of how we might equivocate on the meaning of an oak:

1) An oak tree can mean a paycheck to a woodlot owner.
2) An oak tree can mean a shady spot to think under to a philosopher.
3) An oak tree can mean a target to a man practicing shooting.
4) An oak tree can mean a good hiding place for a kid playing hide and go seek, it might be "home" to another kid.
5) An oak tree can mean a place to carve a heart to a young lover.
6) An oak tree can mean a dinning set to a woodworker.
7) An oak tree can mean dinner to a parasitic beetle.
8) An oak tree can mean dinner to a squirrel, too, but not for the same reason as a beetle.
9) An oak tree can mean power and courage to a poet.
10) An oak tree can mean spiritual power to a Druid.
11) And, yes, an oak tree can mean a member of a species.
12) An oak tree can mean a member of a forest.
13) An oak tree can mean a member of an ecology.
14) An oak tree can mean a member of a planet.
15) An oak tree can mean a member of the universe.
16) An oak tree can mean God.

BUT I am not asking what an oak tree can MEAN.

I am merely asking if an acorn is a tree.

Have we cleared things up?

Not really, no. You have stated that an acorn is of the genus Quercus, or "oak" many times, I think it would be helpful if you answered my question, now. I am ready to read your answer.

Simple yes or no....

But be careful, I might make another LIST.....

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 27 by Dropship]

Thank you for your opinion about acorns and trees. I invite you to take the poll above.
Your analogy rests on unverified premises that you don't supply evidence for, so I will have to discount them as invalid and meaningless.

Regrettably I can't vote in the poll because i don't understand the question, namely-
Is it valid to say that if an acorn is an oak organism that it is an oak tree?

Is it some kind of philosophical riddle or a bit of some obscure fundy double-talk or what?

Well, that's the point, really. Is that sentence logical to you in any way? And if it IS, could you explain it to me? I have to admit that I really should have focused on the question is an acorn a tree.

What I quoted was someone's characterization of Paprika's position.. which is a bit vague so far. Every time I ask him if an acorn is a tree or not, he answers that it is an oak.

I hope to help him understand the question, and see why his answer "oak" is not relevant to the question being asked.

If you really think that the quote makes sense, then vote yes. If you can't make heads or tails of it or don't think it makes logical sense, vote no.

I see only two votes on this burning issue so far.
And I do apologize for all of the confusion I am causing people.

However, I am quite happy to clear it up as much as I can.
Thanks for your interest.