Christians often claim that we all deserve death / hell because we are sinners. It is because of our being sinners that we need to accept Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
Christians also often claim that we are all indeed sinners. If this is the case, if literally every single one of us is a sinner, does it mean that to be sin-free is virtually impossible? If it is impossible for our species to not sin, why does God punish us with death / hell if we give in to what is apparently impossible to resist?
Furthermore, if we all sin, doesn't that suggest that sinning is part of our very nature? If it is part of our nature, does this not in turn suggest that God (having made us and all) created this nature, thereby designing us to be sinners? If so, it's even more unrealistic to expect us to behave in contrast to our nature, and then punishing us with death / hell
Does God have unrealistic expectations?
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Re: Does God have unrealistic expectations?
Post #2If thoughtfully examined, the god of the Bible is one contradictory and inscrutable entity who defies logic. Taken as a whole, neither he nor the theology surrounding him are rational.Justin108 wrote: Christians often claim that we all deserve death / hell because we are sinners. It is because of our being sinners that we need to accept Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
Christians also often claim that we are all indeed sinners. If this is the case, if literally every single one of us is a sinner, does it mean that to be sin-free is virtually impossible? If it is impossible for our species to not sin, why does God punish us with death / hell if we give in to what is apparently impossible to resist?
Furthermore, if we all sin, doesn't that suggest that sinning is part of our very nature? If it is part of our nature, does this not in turn suggest that God (having made us and all) created this nature, thereby designing us to be sinners? If so, it's even more unrealistic to expect us to behave in contrast to our nature, and then punishing us with death / hell
Post #3
Yes, Christians claims that we are sinners and that it is impossible " not just virtually impossible but entirely impossible " for us to never sin. Sin is part of our nature. This doctrine is called original sin. Dont get caught up with Adam and Eve and the Garden and the Serpent. Thats all background stuff. The doctrine of original sin is that no one does what is right all of the time, and even at our best our we are still creatures of mixed motives.
Since, according to Christianity, God is omniscient I doubt that He expects that we will avoid sin. However, the fact that we cannot always do good does not someone how make bad things to be good or good things to be bad.
Think of it this way: According to most non-theistic worldviews people have no soul. We are entirely physical creatures. As such our personalities and actions come from our biology and our upbringing. We cannot change these things. Our actions are mostly (entirely?) determined and there is nothing we can do about that. So expecting a person whose biology and upbringing have determined him to be a rapists to then not commit rape is asking the impossible. Should we therefore no longer punish rape with prison or other penalties? I would say not. Certain actions are either good or evil. Human capacity does not change right or wrong.
I will also note that it seems that Gods expectations are entirely realistic. He tells us what is good and right but has false expectation that we, in our current condition, can always do what is good. So he has provided a means of salvation that is not based on our ability do good but instead is based on His grace.
Since, according to Christianity, God is omniscient I doubt that He expects that we will avoid sin. However, the fact that we cannot always do good does not someone how make bad things to be good or good things to be bad.
Think of it this way: According to most non-theistic worldviews people have no soul. We are entirely physical creatures. As such our personalities and actions come from our biology and our upbringing. We cannot change these things. Our actions are mostly (entirely?) determined and there is nothing we can do about that. So expecting a person whose biology and upbringing have determined him to be a rapists to then not commit rape is asking the impossible. Should we therefore no longer punish rape with prison or other penalties? I would say not. Certain actions are either good or evil. Human capacity does not change right or wrong.
I will also note that it seems that Gods expectations are entirely realistic. He tells us what is good and right but has false expectation that we, in our current condition, can always do what is good. So he has provided a means of salvation that is not based on our ability do good but instead is based on His grace.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Re: Does God have unrealistic expectations?
Post #4I read some C.S. Lewis during my last (unsuccessful) attempt to have the personal relationship with God, or Jesus, whatever that looked like. The idea of Hell being the infinite punishment for the sins I accumulated over a very finite life did not square with God's mercy and grace, or love. But C.S. Lewis used the concept of 'free will' to paint a different picture -- Hell was not necessarily a punishment; it was a choice that humans make. God made Hell an 'option' for those who did not wish to be near him. C. S. Lewis proposed this view in his book The Great Divorce, saying: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'"Justin108 wrote: Christians often claim that we all deserve death / hell because we are sinners. It is because of our being sinners that we need to accept Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
Christians also often claim that we are all indeed sinners. If this is the case, if literally every single one of us is a sinner, does it mean that to be sin-free is virtually impossible? If it is impossible for our species to not sin, why does God punish us with death / hell if we give in to what is apparently impossible to resist?
Furthermore, if we all sin, doesn't that suggest that sinning is part of our very nature? If it is part of our nature, does this not in turn suggest that God (having made us and all) created this nature, thereby designing us to be sinners? If so, it's even more unrealistic to expect us to behave in contrast to our nature, and then punishing us with death / hell
Needless to say, this 'rationale' for Hell was even worse than the punishment of a perfect God who could not tolerate being near imperfection (sinfulness). C.S. Lewis was such an engaging kind of guy . . . but the mental machinations he went to in his apologetics fried my mind. It was, however, consistent with Jesus' words in Matthew "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters".
If we humans are God's creations, and he knew us in the womb, then he in his omniscience knew he was gestating a sinner who would 'choose' Hell rather than be with him. Why even create such a doomed human?
If is inevitable that a human has a sinful nature (per Christian theology), why in the world would a just and merciful God give such a wretched creature the responsibility for its eternal destiny? Even humans know better than that. We wouldn't emancipate our 13 year olds and expect them to hold up under the burdens of adult responsibility because they would be inundated with 'punishments' they are helpless to prevent.
Christian theology infantilizes its believers, so perhaps my analogy of emancipated 13 year olds is quite consistent with it. But it is not consistent with a tri-omni God.
Post #5
Once you stop believing the bible is the word of God and Jesus was just an ordinary Jew who did not recognise the basics of hygiene and mental illness, then you just shrug your shoulders and FREE yourself from such tyranny and walk away!
God tells us nothing other than by spiritual instinct. He has never spoken to any human being no matter what others say. Ditto Jesus. We have evolved with empathy and tolerance and even love and that could have been part of the original design but NOBODY has ever heard God speak. And when people say he has, watch out!
If God did speak in biblical times, why not today when surely would be a good time especially with all those billions of souls going to hell that are not born again Christians.
God tells us nothing other than by spiritual instinct. He has never spoken to any human being no matter what others say. Ditto Jesus. We have evolved with empathy and tolerance and even love and that could have been part of the original design but NOBODY has ever heard God speak. And when people say he has, watch out!
If God did speak in biblical times, why not today when surely would be a good time especially with all those billions of souls going to hell that are not born again Christians.
Re: Does God have unrealistic expectations?
Post #6God's ultimate plan is to build an eternity called heaven. The purpose of setting up Law is to qualify entities with freewill to enter heaven. Adam broke this Law and thus was kicked out of Eden. Since then humans are no longer inside God's realm. Satan is said to be the god of this earth. Under Satan's strong influence, everyone here thus is a sinner. We are born to be sinners.Justin108 wrote: Christians often claim that we all deserve death / hell because we are sinners. It is because of our being sinners that we need to accept Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
Christians also often claim that we are all indeed sinners. If this is the case, if literally every single one of us is a sinner, does it mean that to be sin-free is virtually impossible? If it is impossible for our species to not sin, why does God punish us with death / hell if we give in to what is apparently impossible to resist?
Furthermore, if we all sin, doesn't that suggest that sinning is part of our very nature? If it is part of our nature, does this not in turn suggest that God (having made us and all) created this nature, thereby designing us to be sinners? If so, it's even more unrealistic to expect us to behave in contrast to our nature, and then punishing us with death / hell
God however didn't forsake us. Provided a way to redeem us from this situation. Through His one time self-sacrifice made through Christ, He made it possible that humans can be redeemed by God's Grace. Each successive covenant contains God's Grace for the salvation of humans. This Grace increase along successive covenants to reduce the Law. This is so because as time goes by and generation by generation, less and less humans can abide by the laws specified in a covenant. When an older covenant failed its purpose in saving humans, a new covenant will thus be in place.
You are expected to sin, however you can be saved by a covenant provided. That's the point. As long as you are still on earth, you are provided with a covenant which contains grace for you to be saved.
Last edited by Hawkins on Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #7
I can't believe anyone takes CS Lewis seriously.
To come up with Jesus is either a Lunatic or he was who he said he was, was NOT the words of an ordinary philosopher never mind someone with his so called reputation.
Mr Lewis, there was many other choices. Delusion and being wrong does not equate to being a lunatic. Otherwise half the Politicians that have ever lived were lunatics!
To come up with Jesus is either a Lunatic or he was who he said he was, was NOT the words of an ordinary philosopher never mind someone with his so called reputation.
Mr Lewis, there was many other choices. Delusion and being wrong does not equate to being a lunatic. Otherwise half the Politicians that have ever lived were lunatics!
Re: Does God have unrealistic expectations?
Post #8There was no such person as Adam and Eve! So no need to dream up any other scenario about heaven or hell or any atonement. WHY do human parents forgive their children UNCONDITIONALLY because they love them and yet you think God can't and demands a HUMAN sacrifice as well? Gosh, can we really LOVE this God?Hawkins wrote:God's ultimate plan is to build an eternity called heaven. The purpose of setting up Law is to qualify entities with freewill to enter heaven. Adam broke this Law and thus was kicked out of Eden. Since then humans are no longer inside God's realm. Satan is said to be the god of this earth. Under Satan's strong influence, everyone here thus is a sinner. We are born to be sinners.Justin108 wrote: Christians often claim that we all deserve death / hell because we are sinners. It is because of our being sinners that we need to accept Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
Christians also often claim that we are all indeed sinners. If this is the case, if literally every single one of us is a sinner, does it mean that to be sin-free is virtually impossible? If it is impossible for our species to not sin, why does God punish us with death / hell if we give in to what is apparently impossible to resist?
Furthermore, if we all sin, doesn't that suggest that sinning is part of our very nature? If it is part of our nature, does this not in turn suggest that God (having made us and all) created this nature, thereby designing us to be sinners? If so, it's even more unrealistic to expect us to behave in contrast to our nature, and then punishing us with death / hell
God however didn't forsake us. Provided a way to redeem us from this situation. Through His one time self-sacrifice made through Christ, He made it possible that humans can be redeemed by God's Grace. Each successive covenant contains God's Grace for the salvation of humans. This Grace increase along successive covenants to reduce the Law. This is so because as time goes by and generation by generation, less and less humans can abide by the laws specified in a covenant. When an older covenant failed its purpose in saving humans, a new covenant will thus be in place.
You are expected to sin, however you can be saved by a covenant provided. That's the point.
The ONLY expectation a Creator would have is that we treat the planet with respect and each other as we would expect to be treated ourselves. Simple really. That replaces all the words that have ever been written about religion. Men wanted power and control and so spoiled it all.
Last edited by beeswax on Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #9
As for hell;
That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.
Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.
If it's not because of this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't need a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!
So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.
Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.
Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.
God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with the relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.
Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.
What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally come to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.
God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.
Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.
That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.
Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.
If it's not because of this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't need a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!
So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.
Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.
Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.
God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with the relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.
Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.
What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally come to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.
God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.
Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.
Post #10
Christians please answer this..
IF there was no sin before Adam and Eve and death only came into the world afterwards Adam sinned. Then how could the world have ever been populated?
Did God intend for the human race to populate the whole earth and never die? ie human tissue and organs to last forever? Some Christians do think like this as an excuse as why bad things happen in the world and they smile when they say it in the comfort zone of their own faith.
IF there was no sin before Adam and Eve and death only came into the world afterwards Adam sinned. Then how could the world have ever been populated?
Did God intend for the human race to populate the whole earth and never die? ie human tissue and organs to last forever? Some Christians do think like this as an excuse as why bad things happen in the world and they smile when they say it in the comfort zone of their own faith.
